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What is wrong with the MDMA available today?

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Stumbled upon the Energy Control International page today. I had never heard of them before. They offer testing services for international submissions. Has anyone seen one of their reports? Do they cover isomers etc?

From reading their page, it appears they are invested in research and user health. They seem like they would be a good group to reach out to. Perhaps they would be willing to assist with this research. They also have a lengthy list of published scientific reports that relate to adulterants, purity, etc.

Example: https://energycontrol-international...ifferent-in-terms-of-purity-and-adulterat.pdf
 
Ok, so I have some news to report...

Finally had the chance to try some of the DW product. It had been over 6 months since my last roll.

The crystals were hydrous, so I knew that it was likely that I may need more to produce a usual effect. I decided to start with 130 mg, and follow with 70 mg. I considered the 140 mg suggested, but that was significantly above my usual starting point of 100 mg.

I took the 130 mg at 8:42 pm. By 9:11, I was coming up. This was the first obvious difference between this product and the product that I typically have access to. I usually do not note the "come up" on the other product until about an hour in to the experience. Also, interesting to me that this was the first time I felt that "old-school" burst of nausea on the come up. I stood up to run to the bathroom at one point. Have not experienced that in 13 years.

By 9:29 pm, I was over that come up and was rolling. So, all of this in under an hour.

At 9:38 pm, I noted eye dilation in the mirror. This was not the full black saucer pupils, but it was a noticeable, obvious dilation. This is also in contrast to the usual product that I have, where I do not typically see eye dilation. Later in the evening, the eye dilation had increased significantly.

I took the extra 70 mg at 10:16 pm.

At this point in the experience, I felt social. I wanted to talk to the people around me. I had energy. I walked a lot from one room to the other, inside to outside etc. These are all characteristics that I recall from my early days. I had several of those moments of semi-confessional comments, where I felt the need to express something that I would not have typically thought/said.

I was not, however, ever "balls to the wall" rolling. I do think that dosage would have likely corrected that. I felt like the elements were there that should have been there. If these were pills from the old days, I would have just eaten more pills till I got where I wanted to be. Honestly, I probably could have started with 200 mg. I don't think the weight of this product was reflective of the MDMA content. The other thing I noticed is that the effects felt very short-lasting. The plateau was incredibly short. The best of my old experiences continued in a seemingly endless fashion, with only one re-dose.

At 11:30 pm, I felt like the effects were waning. I had the option at that point for the party to stop, or to add on 100 mg of the "other" MDMA that I typically use. I hardly ever mix different products. Since these products were both lab tested, however, I did not feel like the same dangers were present. I also wanted to see if the tone of the experience changed with the product change.

So, all 11:30 pm I took 100 mg of the "sleepy" MDMA. This MDMA came into the experience and felt pretty cold. Obviously - as a second re-dose this is possibly due to diminished serotonin. However, the side-effect profile shifted noticeably. This MDMA caused an unpleasant jaw jitter. Not a jaw clenching. I feel like that difference is important. This MDMA produced a jittery shake that felt very mechanical. Brought sex into the experience shortly after this, and the sexual vibe was not as intense as it typically would be.

By 2 am I was basically at baseline. I stayed up with people till around 4 am, and then went to sleep with no issues at all. I feel fine today. No physical sickness, no dizziness. Based on how I am feeling right now, I do not expect to have any significant issues this week.

If you made it all the way through this post - thanks!

My overall conclusions here are:

1. The "sleepy" MDMA has active impurities. Those impurities are probably what has been causing my dizziness, sickness, nausea etc. in the days after rolling. Since I just took 100 mg of that product, I probably did not get enough of the impurities to have an impact.

2. Different MDMA products clearly have different effect profiles. Although a bit weak, the DW product brought back the pro-social, talkative vibe I remember from raving.

3. I am pretty motivated at this point to try other variants until I find one that I really like. I also feel like there is little point in taking the sleepy product ever again. There is clearly something not right in that product that makes me sick. I don't need that. For example, on NYE, I took 300 mg of that product and was so sick the next day I was couch ridden and could barely move.

I will keep posting updates. I am curious to know what you guys think about all this.
 
I'm not sourcing, but do you have any idea of the country of origin of your DW product? I think it's been well established for some time that the old argument of "MDMA is MDMA" is a load of nonsense - there are clearly many variants. However, it's encouraging to note the increasing number of reports of the 'good shit' being available again.
 
or any photos of your DW purchase? my most recent "glass" like md came from the DW, i wouldnt say on the weak side mind. 100mg was enough for me on friday night, very oldskool feel of total bliss when coming up other than the burst nausea as you mention. very clean product, slept fine after smoking some top quality soft hash. felt good in myself the next day aswell
 
Lots to say but I'll edit it in later...

But til then, thanks for updating us on that indigo I was wondering about that! I like your outlook on the future too, as there isn't really generalizable variants but from what I'm finding each batch can be different from the next. It's good to keep looking as not only will you eventually find what you prefer but then you can switch up.

Be back later :)

-GC
 
I can get photos for you and upload. I have been meaning to update my testing kit and post videos of that reaction as well.

The product was advertised as being "safrole derived" and "made in California." It did have a very faint safrole smell. Not as strong as the pills I recall from "back in the day."

Also, just have to add...SO MUCH AFTERGLOW.

Melting into a puddle of love over here.
 
After reading over your report a few things. First off, I do believe you are correct in that dosages of even "good" mdma are not as potent as they used to be for the most part.

This comes down to the fact the drug is sold by weight over unit more often than not these days. Not that there isn't pure (99.9%.) mdma out there but most has small amounts of other substances added to help create better bigger crystalline rocks. This is a problem for both the good stuff and the bad stuff I presume.

In regards to duration. That can fluctuate depending on many factors, I once in awhile will have a "shorter than I would have enjoyed" roll off familiar batches. Try again in the future to see if it's still shorter acting.

The afterglow is the tell tale sign of good stuff though. Nothing clears my head like a good roll.

Glad your feeling good brother :)

-GC
 
GC, can you clarify how hydrous vs. anhydrous would impact weight?

I recall having some pills a long time ago that felt a lot like this product. Very short, but very loved up. They were super tiny pills, I remember that.

Obviously, also, I recognize that I have a tolerance. However, the familiarity of the come-up, socialization, and positivity makes me feel that my issue has been my product.

Did you have a chance to view that international testing site? I think that I will send a sample in of my questionable MDMA and pay for a full PDF report.
 
indigoaura said:
Ok, so I have some news to report...

Finally had the chance to try some of the DW product. It had been over 6 months since my last roll.

The crystals were hydrous, so I knew that it was likely that I may need more to produce a usual effect. I decided to start with 130 mg, and follow with 70 mg. I considered the 140 mg suggested, but that was significantly above my usual starting point of 100 mg.

I took the 130 mg at 8:42 pm. By 9:11, I was coming up. This was the first obvious difference between this product and the product that I typically have access to. I usually do not note the "come up" on the other product until about an hour in to the experience. Also, interesting to me that this was the first time I felt that "old-school" burst of nausea on the come up. I stood up to run to the bathroom at one point. Have not experienced that in 13 years.

By 9:29 pm, I was over that come up and was rolling. So, all of this in under an hour.

At 9:38 pm, I noted eye dilation in the mirror. This was not the full black saucer pupils, but it was a noticeable, obvious dilation. This is also in contrast to the usual product that I have, where I do not typically see eye dilation. Later in the evening, the eye dilation had increased significantly.

I took the extra 70 mg at 10:16 pm.

At this point in the experience, I felt social. I wanted to talk to the people around me. I had energy. I walked a lot from one room to the other, inside to outside etc. These are all characteristics that I recall from my early days. I had several of those moments of semi-confessional comments, where I felt the need to express something that I would not have typically thought/said.

I was not, however, ever "balls to the wall" rolling. I do think that dosage would have likely corrected that. I felt like the elements were there that should have been there. If these were pills from the old days, I would have just eaten more pills till I got where I wanted to be. Honestly, I probably could have started with 200 mg. I don't think the weight of this product was reflective of the MDMA content. The other thing I noticed is that the effects felt very short-lasting. The plateau was incredibly short. The best of my old experiences continued in a seemingly endless fashion, with only one re-dose.

At 11:30 pm, I felt like the effects were waning. I had the option at that point for the party to stop, or to add on 100 mg of the "other" MDMA that I typically use. I hardly ever mix different products. Since these products were both lab tested, however, I did not feel like the same dangers were present. I also wanted to see if the tone of the experience changed with the product change.

So, all 11:30 pm I took 100 mg of the "sleepy" MDMA. This MDMA came into the experience and felt pretty cold. Obviously - as a second re-dose this is possibly due to diminished serotonin. However, the side-effect profile shifted noticeably. This MDMA caused an unpleasant jaw jitter. Not a jaw clenching. I feel like that difference is important. This MDMA produced a jittery shake that felt very mechanical. Brought sex into the experience shortly after this, and the sexual vibe was not as intense as it typically would be.

By 2 am I was basically at baseline. I stayed up with people till around 4 am, and then went to sleep with no issues at all. I feel fine today. No physical sickness, no dizziness. Based on how I am feeling right now, I do not expect to have any significant issues this week.

If you made it all the way through this post - thanks!

My overall conclusions here are:

1. The "sleepy" MDMA has active impurities. Those impurities are probably what has been causing my dizziness, sickness, nausea etc. in the days after rolling. Since I just took 100 mg of that product, I probably did not get enough of the impurities to have an impact.

2. Different MDMA products clearly have different effect profiles. Although a bit weak, the DW product brought back the pro-social, talkative vibe I remember from raving.

3. I am pretty motivated at this point to try other variants until I find one that I really like. I also feel like there is little point in taking the sleepy product ever again. There is clearly something not right in that product that makes me sick. I don't need that. For example, on NYE, I took 300 mg of that product and was so sick the next day I was couch ridden and could barely move.

I will keep posting updates. I am curious to know what you guys think about all this.
Click to expand...

this sure sounds like the same product i have, the come down/ drop off is so sudden but the afterflow remains nicely. ive tried multi quoting a few things you have stated in other posts on this page but keep loosing 1 or the other. but everything you mention, sounds like the same mdma i have here. the nausea on comeup. then the pure bliss that follow's as thats how id describe it :) another thing is i dont feel the need to re-dose after the first dose. i feel those few short hours are enough

question was the sleepy product off tan/cola?
 
Playhard, I think a lot of clean, pure MDMA would have a similar profile. As I think I mentioned in my post, I do believe that this product was a bit weak, but other than that, it had very positive qualities. 1 dose was definitely NOT enough for me. Felt like arriving at Disneyworld and seeing the signs, but not going into the park all the way. I have always been a re-doser though, from day 1. I can only think of one experience where I did not re-dose, and that was an unusually special experience indeed.

The other, "sleepy," product I have is actually pretty white and dry. I will try to post photos of both for the sake of comparison.

Forgot to mention in my original report that I had eaten about 4 hours earlier.
 
@indigo- It's hard to say how much hydration can effect the weight as it can vary, there are multiple hydrated polymorphs. One study I read claims to have found two hydrated polymorphs amongst illicit samples. I wish I could answer that better.

And I don't remember if I did check that site out or not, could you re-link it for me or remind me where it's at please? :)

I find your evaluation of the side effects interesting for the other "not so good mdma," I completely agree that impurities must be the problem with that stuff.

In the end though your right you do have a tolerance after all these years. It's my belief that duration is the most effected by tolerance over time, I notice many of my old rolling friends talk about how it doesn't last as long as it used to when they started.

Next time I'd try a bigger dose and maybe take your redose 2 to 2 1/2hrs after initial. I normally wouldn't suggest waiting so long but in your case a little extra MDMA to MDA metabolism might help out for duration.

Anyway to see a picture of the DW mdma? Just curious..

So you gotta think with 99.9% pure mdma the dosages are 80-120mg for someone with no or little tolerance. Likely the product is in the upper 80's/lower 90's% at best, and with a tolerance I could see 150-160mg plus 80-90mg booster being a better fit next time.

Do you still have some left?

-GC
 
G_Chem said:
So you gotta think with 99.9% pure mdma the dosages are 80-120mg for someone with no or little tolerance. Likely the product is in the upper 80's/lower 90's% at best, and with a tolerance I could see 150-160mg plus 80-90mg booster being a better fit next time.
-GC
Click to expand...

The highest purity of MDMA should be closer to 90% than 100%, since it normally occurs in the form of HCl salt, not free base.


DocLad
 
^^^This is an all too common misconception that the Dutch DW vendors picked up and ran with. I've explained a few times in the past on this thread if you want a better explanation but...

MDMA HCl can achieve 99.9% purity. The HCl is not considered an impurity but is molecularly bonded with the "Freebase". This essentially creates a new substance with new properties, its not just Freebase mdma still with some HCl mixed in. It's a bad analogy but it's like saying salt can only be 50% pure because it's only half sodium.

If you purify mdma beyond the "84%" often quoted it's not going to spontaneously turn into a liquid beyond that point. That's not how it works. Again we are talking about two completely different substances (the Freebase and HCl) with different properties that can both achieve 99.9% purity.

This misconception grew from the fact some labs report their findings in Freebase since they can't or don't care to determine the salt used. This varies for each lab, erowid has a good article on it where they contact various labs and ask how they report.

Then the Dutch used this to sell inferior product. Now someone is less likely to bitch if their mdma is in the mid 80's% because this thing has grown to the point where 84% of people actually believe it...

Purity is based on impurities separate from the molecular structure, HCl is part of that stable molecular structure.

-GC
 
G_Chem said:
^^^This is an all too common misconception that the Dutch DW vendors picked up and ran with. I've explained a few times in the past on this thread if you want a better explanation but...

MDMA HCl can achieve 99.9% purity. The HCl is not considered an impurity but is molecularly bonded with the "Freebase". This essentially creates a new substance with new properties, its not just Freebase mdma still with some HCl mixed in. It's a bad analogy but it's like saying salt can only be 50% pure because it's only half sodium.

If you purify mdma beyond the "84%" often quoted it's not going to spontaneously turn into a liquid beyond that point. That's not how it works. Again we are talking about two completely different substances (the Freebase and HCl) with different properties that can both achieve 99.9% purity.

This misconception grew from the fact some labs report their findings in Freebase since they can't or don't care to determine the salt used. This varies for each lab, erowid has a good article on it where they contact various labs and ask how they report.

Then the Dutch used this to sell inferior product. Now someone is less likely to bitch if their mdma is in the mid 80's% because this thing has grown to the point where 84% of people actually believe it...

Purity is based on impurities separate from the molecular structure, HCl is part of that stable molecular structure.

-GC
Click to expand...

Yep, many DW vendors tout the same bollocks with amphetamine sulphate - saying it can never be more than 78% (iirc) pure because of the salt. Utter shite, what we want is pure sulphate, not freebase...

Although I've never purchased from the DW, I've trawled the markets many a time, and see this misconception repeated over and over again.
 
What I mean is that a dose of MDMA HCl even though it does not have impurities can not be 100% MDMA, that is only for MDMA freebase.
The molecular weight of the HCl salt is not very relevant because it is low, but for example a Citrate salt is very heavy and it would be convenient to make the calculations necessary to dose the correct dose, even if it was MDMA without impurities.


DocLad
 
No.. MDMA HCl can be 99.9999% pure. (Nothing can ever be 100%.) Again you need to look at them as two different substances entirely because that is what they are. The HCl is a molecular bond, not something just free floating in there to keep it a solid until it's "purified" beyond 84%. Mdma Freebase and MDMA HCl are two entirely different compounds in regards to this discussion.

Yes different salts have different weights but that isn't really what we're talking about here.

Ask anyone who actually knows chemistry well and they will tell you the same. This whole 84% highest purity thing is less than a decade old... It's a scam by DW vendors and everyone ate it up. MDMA HCl (or citrate, or tartrate, etc) had no problem reaching 99% before and I've seen many reputable research articles that talk about purity above 84%.

One more time, when we are talking about purity in chemistry that is in regards to any other substance that isn't part of the molecular structure of the substance in question. The HCl is part of that molecular bond, therefore it's not included.

I'm sorry if I'm coming off pissy it's just I've had to rehash this thing time and again.

Also while the citrate is a heavier salt making weighing doses easier, it also seems to have different pharmacological effects based on anecdotal information from chemists on the old Hive, vespiary, etc. I gather it's a smoother less intense experience with longer duration and a little more psychedelic.

Many would argue salt only effects dose, I'd argue they're wrong..

-GC
 
@ G_Chem - this is the website that I found: https://energycontrol-international.org/drug-testing-service/

They appear to offer a more advanced testing service than Edata. I emailed them to see if their report shows isomer ratios, but I have not heard back yet. If they offer a more advanced service, this may be an easy way for all of us to send in samples and start comparing notes.

What is the best way to get a good photo of this stuff? Black paper for a point of contrast?

Also, just as expected, I have had no issues at all with recovery/comedown. On Monday I felt a little queasy, but nothing serious. Yesterday and today I have been totally fine. No issues sleeping. Only very minor emotional vulnerability noted. I basically feel normal. Sunday's afterglow was almost as awesome as Saturday's roll.
 
Forgot to reply to this earlier...

Yes, I do have a little more. I deliberately left some out so there could be a second experience later. I really only have enough left for one other experience, based on what I know now about dosing.

Also, been browsing around the DW. Obviously, there is a lot of total shit listed. I see some vendors identifying PMK as the precursor. I have seen this on several listings. They all seem to be more "professional" listings from self-identified labs. I have not seen any other vendors identifying safrole as the starting point. The vendor I used before is no longer around, unfortunately.
 
-GC, Excuse me if I screwed up on this thread with the percentage issue.
From the beginning I have been referring to a percentage based on the molecular weight of the substance in the form of salt or freebase and I see that this was not the subject of discussion here. My apologies.

Anyway, nobody is surprised if EnergyControl offers results based on what I'm saying. For example, they take as reference DMT freebase and Harmina / Harmalina freebase to calculate the percentage of "purity" of the substances, for this reason the DMT Fumarate is always around 65%.
I wanted to clarify this point, since this fact is why I made my previous comment.


DocLad
 
I received a reply today from Energy Control. They state:

First of all, thank you for contacting us with this.

I'm sorry for the delay in response, it's not for lack of attention but rather the opposite. These analysis are not something we usually do but we find this kind of research very interesting, so we are gathering some more info and talking with other possible partners to see if there is a chance to make this possible.

We will write back as soon as we have a full answer, but in summer things go a bit slower so please allow us some more time :)
Click to expand...

G_Chem, Glubra and others: what are some of the specific questions I should pose to Energy Control? What kinds of tests would we like to see? What issues are we specifically interested in comparing? I am definitely not the chemist of this group...

If Energy Control is willing to be a central lab to analyze samples, then we could all actually send in samples and compare the results without any personal danger. I know Glubra has the ability to test things he encounters, but he cannot test what all of us encounter. I am personally eager to send in the "sleepy" sample and see what a detailed report would show. If we could find a way to cross reference the lab results with experience reports, we could perhaps begin to really understand some of the nuances that are occurring.

Thoughts?
 
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