What is wrong with the MDMA available today?

[Le Junk]

I agree but I have a very strong suspicion that he may have just uncovered the actual culprit here. It would explain a lot of things ie. lack of dilation, empathy, high dose pills, their ability to pass the testing labs as just MDMA etc. I also suspect that this is probably more the norm for todays manufactures as it seems like this kind of buzz is all thats available nowadays. Outstanding first step Glubra! Lets continue testing more and more samples to confirm the results are more widespread than just this particular pill.

 

[Beenhead]

So why would chemists knowingly use this precursor to create a positional isomer of MDMA that has little history of use and would almost certainly be identified as inferior product by users? The main paper on this substance says that it would produce very little in the way of MDMA like effects at all.

Wouldnt these large labs have the ability to test their precursors to make sure they are the same? Would the synthesis even work the same way with 2,3-MDP2P?

 

[userlee5267]

Maybe something is going wrong during the synth which isnt noticable.

Or maybe thats all some chemists can/will make because its easier/struggle to get something to finish it off properly.

God knows im just guessing lol

 

[G_Chem]

Your right beenhead this substance isn't a byproduct of the traditional 3,4-mdma synthesis. This would be deliberate.

I don't think the labs have any idea. And to answer your question, no most clandestine labs wouldn't be able to differentiate between the two. (Nor care, they believe they've just purchased 3,4 and want to get product made and out the door.). My guess is that 2,3-MDP2P is possibly legal and unwatched in China, the Chinese can then produce this with the same impunity they would with the RC's they've been pumping out. Also yes this intermediate could be synthesized the same as regular 3,4 mdma.

As you guys, I'd love to hear a confirmation from Glubra plus maybe a second or third analysis before I can really start to believe it. This is just so far off from my initial theories yet it is still highly plausible in hindsight..

2,3-MDMA is pretty much unknown as far as I've read. I've seen one comment on 2,3-MDA in PIHKAL that claimed it was a stimulant at 50mg, that was it... We are talking about an unknown substance with high potential to be a substance that's a bit off yet similar to the real deal.

The only thing is supposedly it can be differentiated from 3,4-mdma via GCMS so we'll have to wait and see.

We must also remember the PMK intermediate was overshadowing the 2,3-mdma, what the hell is up with that??

So many more questions after that Raman spec...

-GC

 

[userlee5267]

Your right beenhead this substance isn't a byproduct of the traditional 3,4-mdma synthesis. This would be deliberate.

I don't think the labs have any idea. And to answer your question, no most clandestine labs wouldn't be able to differentiate between the two. (Nor care, they believe they've just purchased 3,4 and want to get product made and out the door.). My guess is that 2,3-MDP2P is possibly legal and unwatched in China, the Chinese can then produce this with the same impunity they would with the RC's they've been pumping out. Also yes this intermediate could be synthesized the same as regular 3,4 mdma.

As you guys, I'd love to hear a confirmation from Glubra plus maybe a second or third analysis before I can really start to believe it. This is just so far off from my initial theories yet it is still highly plausible in hindsight..

2,3-MDMA is pretty much unknown as far as I've read. I've seen one comment on 2,3-MDA in PIHKAL that claimed it was a stimulant at 50mg, that was it... We are talking about an unknown substance with high potential to be a substance that's a bit off yet similar to the real deal.

The only thing is supposedly it can be differentiated from 3,4-mdma via GCMS so we'll have to wait and see.



We must also remember the PMK intermediate was overshadowing the 2,3-mdma, what the hell is up with that??

So many more questions after that Raman spec...

-GC

would you say maybe something is going wrong during the process. would the dutch buy the powder from the chinese?

 

[Beenhead]

I dunno

First i would think there could be trouble if the cooks found out they were being screwed

I wouldnt want to mess with them.

If this chem had any real similarity to mdma i think it wiuld have been marketed by now by the same chinese vendors and methylone suppliers

I dont know how well 2,3 and 3,4 MDMA could be distinguished by GCMS. It would need a good signal to noise ratio and sensitivity. Tandem MS would do better at this at the MS^3 level and reversed phase UPLC and ESI, not GC and EI.

If gcms was done I think you may end up needing a triple quad so you could get another layer of fragments


I cant find crap on the 2,3-PMK

 

[G_Chem]

@Userlee- That would be my guess, it wouldn't be the first time chemists just went ahead and put the intermediate in the pills. It might be hard to know too if they were synthing straight from the glycidate as it's also a powder/solid.

It could of been a semi failed amination based on the fact they tried using the glycidate as is, or these guys just fucked up for another reason. We don't know..

@Beenhead- Criminals are criminals, both sides (Chinese and Dutch) are equally armed and equally scary I'd presume. Also it's hard to know your getting screwed when they are screwing you so well (i.e. a substance that tests legit on GCMS is hard to dispute.)

Also there was a short period where they did try to market it but no one was buying and APB's flowed like wine so people were happy. On top of that why sell a substance for next to nothing as an RC when you could pull the biggest scam of all time and sell it as the intermediate for the most popular drug out there. (Less synthesizing, safer legally, way more money.)

Shulgin even talks in PIHKAL about obtaining the wrong ketone from a chemical supplier, if it can happen at that level it can happen on this level.

I could keep going playing devils advocate but until we get some more info we will keep going in circles. We right now seemingly have 3 very potential theories which could be at play... This could have been just a 1 off bad pill, it seems based on reading around that people enjoyed the press so idk...

Glubra needs to come back, he dropped a bombshell on us lol.

-GC

 

[Tranced]

I'd just like to say that whilst I am not personally convinced as of yet, this thread is certainly an interesting read, and I appreciate all of your efforts! Keep up the good work/research (I have no doubt that you's will).

 

[montel]

I'd just like to say that whilst I am not personally convinced as of yet, this thread is certainly an interesting read, and I appreciate all of your efforts! Keep up the good work/research (I have no doubt that you's will).

My thoughts exactly, this is a fascinating read and I do wonder if it's the current source for MDP2P is at the root of all this. The problem is that there are far too many user reports that indicate the love/happiness is there, just as it always was, and it's merely a tolerance issue. A thorough study of a cross-section of pills is the only way to actually confirm/refute this - and the only obvious place would a Dutch test centre. Does anyone know anyone/have access to one and would they be willing to dig deeper?

 

[userlee5267]

i was looking on ecstasy data last night and i seen a few pills mention they had sythensis by product in them... surely this is the same.

 

[Dresden]

A Good GC/MS Should Be Able To Distinguish Between 3,4-MDMA & 2,3-MDMA. The Latter Is Not Much An Empathogen.

 

[SympatheticMD]

Wow, I left for a month and by the time I return someone has referred to me as an “old fart.” It is the first time that has happened to me. I’m not exactly what you’d expect from an old fart.

When I looked over all of these posts, I started see things differently, thinking from a legal rather than scientific perspective. This brought me to this article.

http://www.emcdda.europa.eu/publica...amphetamines-ecstasy/production-precursors_en


It is from 2016, and it claimed that the limiting factor in MDMA mass production is the availability of the precursor. Some people in this thread are way ahead of me, and have already alluded to this point. For me, this article pulled our discussion out to a more massive and global scale, which may impact the way some of you chemists approach the evaluation of different types of MDMA. For example is the chemical in the paragraph below a precursor to 2,3-MDMA found in the Trump pill?

“In 2014, during a survey by the INCB on the use of pre-precursor materials, several governments mentioned a substance called ‘Helional’ (2-methyl-3-(3,4-methylenedioxyphenyl)propanal), a novel precursor for MDA and possibly MDMA. In May 2014, Dutch authorities reported a seizure of 800 litres of Helional at a ‘clandestine warehouse’; more than 500 kg of APAAN was also seized from the same site (INCB, 2015a), indicating that precursor developments continue to evolve and must be carefully and continuously monitored.”


In any case, this is the first time I have read that novel precursors are being used in the production of MDMA. The manufacturers are looking for new ways to make MDMA that don’t rely on traditional substances like sassafrole or …. Piperadole (sp?)/PMK?. Couldn’t this change in synthesis also account for some of the changes we have seen in the way the drug feels? Would it be worthwhile to read more about what types of drugs are being seized in the mass labs busts to get a handle on what might be included in the end product MDMA we see today?

I didnotice that the article made very little mention of China as a main source of MDMA…so perhaps G-Chem is onto something about the legality of its precursors in china, since the publication date is old and the market has moved on.

@G-Chem: you said that the first phases of the MAPS MDMA trials used “old” MDMA pills. How did you know this? (And I mean this with complete curiosity so that I can find that kind of information when I read). Also, I would guess that pharmaceutical company (I’m not sure if this is Merck or Dole at this point?) would have to be involved at some point in the study – someone with a patent has to make the supply once the demand is created by a successful study.

Lastly, could you theoretically test a pill for a trace amount of a known precursor – say saffrole - and then you would know that you were likely to have a “good” pill? Ie, would every pill have some trace amount of the initial precursor in it? Maybe the smaller labs with better product use higher quality , identifiable precursors in them?

 

[Beenhead]

Wow, I left for a month and by the time I return someone has referred to me as an “old fart.” It is the first time that has happened to me. I’m not exactly what you’d expect from an old fart.

When I looked over all of these posts, I started see things differently, thinking from a legal rather than scientific perspective. This brought me to this article.

http://www.emcdda.europa.eu/publica...amphetamines-ecstasy/production-precursors_en


It is from 2016, and it claimed that the limiting factor in MDMA mass production is the availability of the precursor. Some people in this thread are way ahead of me, and have already alluded to this point. For me, this article pulled our discussion out to a more massive and global scale, which may impact the way some of you chemists approach the evaluation of different types of MDMA. For example is the chemical in the paragraph below a precursor to 2,3-MDMA found in the Trump pill?

“In 2014, during a survey by the INCB on the use of pre-precursor materials, several governments mentioned a substance called ‘Helional’ (2-methyl-3-(3,4-methylenedioxyphenyl)propanal), a novel precursor for MDA and possibly MDMA. In May 2014, Dutch authorities reported a seizure of 800 litres of Helional at a ‘clandestine warehouse’; more than 500 kg of APAAN was also seized from the same site (INCB, 2015a), indicating that precursor developments continue to evolve and must be carefully and continuously monitored.”


In any case, this is the first time I have read that novel precursors are being used in the production of MDMA. The manufacturers are looking for new ways to make MDMA that don’t rely on traditional substances like sassafrole or …. Piperadole (sp?)/PMK?. Couldn’t this change in synthesis also account for some of the changes we have seen in the way the drug feels? Would it be worthwhile to read more about what types of drugs are being seized in the mass labs busts to get a handle on what might be included in the end product MDMA we see today?

I didnotice that the article made very little mention of China as a main source of MDMA…so perhaps G-Chem is onto something about the legality of its precursors in china, since the publication date is old and the market has moved on.

@G-Chem: you said that the first phases of the MAPS MDMA trials used “old” MDMA pills. How did you know this? (And I mean this with complete curiosity so that I can find that kind of information when I read). Also, I would guess that pharmaceutical company (I’m not sure if this is Merck or Dole at this point?) would have to be involved at some point in the study – someone with a patent has to make the supply once the demand is created by a successful study.

Lastly, could you theoretically test a pill for a trace amount of a known precursor – say saffrole - and then you would know that you were likely to have a “good” pill? Ie, would every pill have some trace amount of the initial precursor in it? Maybe the smaller labs with better product use higher quality , identifiable precursors in them?

I will answer these paragraphs one at a time

The seized precursor has the methylene dioxy ring in the right place, so this is not what we are looking for in a 2,3 methylene dioxy precursor. THis one has a methyl group at the 2 position which would have to be removed. But does show that these labs are trying to work around the lack of precursor to make MDMA

The earlier phases just used MDMA that was not synthed in a GMP environment. THe new stuff is and would need to be done any way when they go to production, and I think is needed for phase three trials when you are givng the drug to larger numbers of people. GMP just gives traceability of the manufacturing process so that any errors in the process are tracked and dealt with.

The patent on MDMA has run out a long time ago, so MDMA will be generic when released as a CII drug

You would need to do some sort of instrumental analysis to test a pill like you said. Colorimetric tests really only get you so far and dont work on trace species.

 

[Vexanize]

maybe its just shitty street ecstacy. If you actually want real shit, find someone who orders stuff from the deep web across country from labs and doesn't cook that shit in their moms basement. Either that or buy some bitcoin and get it yourself but I'm not gonna send you any links or tell you any way to get to the deep web but, if you really wanna go there, it's possible. Also, don't listen to the bullshit stories of people being captured and shit from the deep web, all of my old plugs buy shit with bitcoin from the cotton road. So yeah, nothing good is on the street anymore. It's either legal and in a shop, or anonymously online.

 

[G_Chem]

^^^Please actually read up on some things before spreading misinformation..

The product talked about here is tested and often sourced from the dark web. I've also never once purchased dark web MDMA and I always get legit product... Sure the dark web makes it easier for some, but not a necessity.

-GC

 

[Glubrahnum]

So it was 2,3-MDP2P glycidate not 3,4??

Definitely

Wouldn't that mean we are looking at 2,3-MDMA in the sample too then?

If the synth was done properly with this precursor then it would be...but it doesn't seem to me that it was.

I wonder the legality of 2,3-MDP2P glycidate? That may be the reason they are flooding the market with this stuff.

I have no idea

 

[Glubrahnum]

Sorry I'm not a chemist, so in laymans terms, what does all this mean? The samples are testing positive as MDMA in the labs but its not the correct MDMA?

Yes, 2,3-MDMA would deceive regular underivatized GC/MS analysis. Only exotic stationary phases would be able to distinguish it in underivatized form... but they are expensive.

 

[Glubrahnum]

Here's a link to the latest trump pill that they claim is just over 200mg MDMA.. What's your take on that Glubra or anyone?
https://www.ecstasydata.org/view.php?id=6039&mobile=1

This is it, except for the color (which in my case was white)
The shape, mass and dimensions, match.

This could mean two things; the lab who made this pill tried synth'ing straight from the glycidate and failed miserably, and/or this is common practice and many labs synth straight from glycidate.

In my opinion it is the former...or some ruthless criminal did not even try to make the synth. Yes, that would mean that they were pressing the precursor into pills!

If Glubra is right it means we have 2,3-MDMA in place of 3,4-MDMA (the right one) for some pills...

If the synth was done properly from this precursor, I'd expect 2,3-MDMA to be the result.

and on top of that most of the content of that pill contained the intermediate which has little if any activity.

Yes, in fact I could not detect any peaks characteristic only for n,n-MDMA.
I do not know if that 2,3-MDP2P is psychoactive because after my test nobody wanted to consume it...nor would I want them to.

Others have talked about it being hard to distinguish from real 3,4-MDMA via GCMS but I found a paper saying it can be distinguished so someone will have to clarify that for me..

Yes, normal underivatized GC/MS is unable to distinguish it. With common industrial stationary phases, you'd have to react the 2.3-MDMA with other chemicals to form derivatives of 2,3-MDMA to distinguish them...or use exotic and expensive stationary phases. There is a paper by Tamer Awad that discusses this very problem, here.

It's not far fetched to see mostly MDP2P (or analogous substances like the glycidate) like we do here in a sample although I wonder how common it is.. I also wonder how active a pill like this would even be?..

Note that this was a test of only one pill and that pill was never consumed so I just don't know.

Another huge discovery from that research is these labs are using the glycidate as is to synthesize (or at least this one did..).

...or the unscrupulous criminals did not even bother to make the synth because thay noticed the the precursor is psychoactive by itself.

How far off is MDP2P from MDMA on GCMS?

Quite distinguishable because of the different mass.

 

[G_Chem]

Thank you so much for coming in to confirm and explain further. Especially regarding the differentiation between the two via GCMS.

This could be our culprit right here... This discovery is huge and now we finally can tell people they aren't crazy to think there's a difference. And lab tests can no longer be fully trusted (well they never could but now we have proof for those who don't believe.)

Well I think this could really explain the high availability of this precursor, I'm curious what this intermediate is made from. Cuz if I'm correct this couldn't be made from safrole or piperonal very easily right? We'd need something with the 2,3 configuration over the 3,4.. What starting precursor would that be? I'll look up on that.

-GC

 

[Glubrahnum]

Was this RAMAN spectrum obtained with a solid like a KBr pellet

No, Raman spectrography does not require KBr pellets. They are required for transmittive IR spectroscopy - a completely different animal.
Raman spectroscopy works as shown in this video.

If it was a solid, then you would not always get a complete sample of the compound due to mixing and all that. These pills are not homogeneous at all.

If I could focus the laser spot down to micrometers, then I'd get a high spatial resolution, that would allow me to pick out the active substance from the excipient. ...and if I had a computerized XY scanning stage, I could even produce a false-color image like this:

However my spectrometer is not such high-quality and my beam focuses down to only 2mm diameter, so I get an average spectrum of all of the substances that the beam illuminates.
If you know a wealthy drug aficionado, that would like to help me upgrade my equipment, then write me a private message

3,4-MDMA and 2,3 should be distinguishable with good chromatography, because the two will not elute into the MS at the same time.

...but they do! Read this paper on the subject.

Sounds like this pill had a lot of precursor left in it, probably due to a bad synthesis.

Yes, or some "enterprising" individual decided to skip the synthesis altogether.

My question is is 2,3-MDMA and 3,4-MDMA common products in the synthesis of MDMA?

Since "the MDMA" is really 3,4-MDMA, then the right question to ask would be: "is 2,3-MDMA a common byproducts in the synthesis of 3,4-MDMA?
...and my answer to that question would be - "no".

I could potentially see this happening in the course of some reactions,

All of the MDMA synth reactions, that I know of, are very careful not to even touch the methylenedioxy bridge.

Remember this is one pill and is no way representative of even every trump pill out there.

Absolutely, and this should be emphasized over and over again.

Lets continue testing more and more samples to confirm the results are more widespread than just this particular pill.

I wish I could just publish my add address and receive more preconsumed samples sent to test. I'd need only 1mg... but the powers-that-be would knock on my door sooner than the postman

(was a Marquis reagent test done on the RAMAN pill??)

No, I don't have any and I'd have to mix some up. I really do not like the smell of the formaldehyde.