LucidSDreamr
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∆ sure as long as they build it into thier method it would be easy thing to do. Good luck getting them to do so if they don't currently though.
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What is wrong with the MDMA available today?
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downerprimadonna
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iv been in your shoes. but when it comes down to the issue...
You are clearly looking in the wrong places. I have just recently got a hold of 94% pure MDMA and had non stop body orgasms for atleast 3 hours straight! Unwillingly. It was amazing.
I honestly recommend searching for vendors out of your reach...
If there's a will there's a way.
You are clearly looking in the wrong places. I have just recently got a hold of 94% pure MDMA and had non stop body orgasms for atleast 3 hours straight! Unwillingly. It was amazing.
I honestly recommend searching for vendors out of your reach...
If there's a will there's a way.
Yea getting testing centers to actually look for these impurities would be a hassle indeed. Imagine if someone came into your work and asked you to go way above and beyond at your job when your already slammed, and for zero extra money.. You'd think to yourself "fuck off" and continue on all the same. Sadly that's likely what they'll do too.
I should note I don't think leuckart MDMA is the only good MDMA ever made. I do think there are other routes which produce great product too just different from one another.
It's my belief that as I said above we are looking at 3 main eras of MDMA, and each one is unique in its own way.
Late 80's/Early 90's. Leuckart. Longer lasting, much more stimulating experience. Stronger dosage wise as well. While many talk of this being the best it also came with a price of feeling haggard for days after.
Late 90's/Late 00's. Leuckart is pushed aside in favor of other reactions, while many of them produce good product some do not. The synthesis of MDMA went from a few large producers to many smaller chemists thanks to the advent of the internet. The good MDMA found during this period is likely as close to pure, shulgin-esque as it gets in terms of feel and what was described in PIHKAL and elsewhere. Again this is just a generalization, certain areas/connections got better or worse product based on the chemist that it originated from.
2010 and on.. This is when PMK and safrole was replaced with PMK glycidate as the main precursor for large scale production. The production market started to sway back towards larger scale operations like in the 90's. Dutch super labs were born but unfortunately despite what sounds to be a glorious defeat of the war on drugs, it seems much of this new product is not up to par from that of the past. This era is somewhat of an amalgam of the prior two in that both small and large scale chemists run the market. It's also this reason many (such as myself) still stumble upon good product. The amount of routes to MDxx these days is obviously at its highest and with it comes variance from batch to batch, and dealer to dealer.
This is obviously a quick run down with much missing but gives a general idea.. Please remember these are just generalizations, in all eras your likely to find MDMA from many synthetic routes it's just some have been more popular than others depending on time and region.
My guess is, in regards to impurities and GCMS, is that unless they are there in pretty significant amounts the lab won't care to publish the findings. Is this correct lucid?
All that said the chances of stumbling upon leuckart synthesized MDMA is probably like winning the lottery. I doubt many have tried it who didn't take MDMA before 95.
-GC
I should note I don't think leuckart MDMA is the only good MDMA ever made. I do think there are other routes which produce great product too just different from one another.
It's my belief that as I said above we are looking at 3 main eras of MDMA, and each one is unique in its own way.
Late 80's/Early 90's. Leuckart. Longer lasting, much more stimulating experience. Stronger dosage wise as well. While many talk of this being the best it also came with a price of feeling haggard for days after.
Late 90's/Late 00's. Leuckart is pushed aside in favor of other reactions, while many of them produce good product some do not. The synthesis of MDMA went from a few large producers to many smaller chemists thanks to the advent of the internet. The good MDMA found during this period is likely as close to pure, shulgin-esque as it gets in terms of feel and what was described in PIHKAL and elsewhere. Again this is just a generalization, certain areas/connections got better or worse product based on the chemist that it originated from.
2010 and on.. This is when PMK and safrole was replaced with PMK glycidate as the main precursor for large scale production. The production market started to sway back towards larger scale operations like in the 90's. Dutch super labs were born but unfortunately despite what sounds to be a glorious defeat of the war on drugs, it seems much of this new product is not up to par from that of the past. This era is somewhat of an amalgam of the prior two in that both small and large scale chemists run the market. It's also this reason many (such as myself) still stumble upon good product. The amount of routes to MDxx these days is obviously at its highest and with it comes variance from batch to batch, and dealer to dealer.
This is obviously a quick run down with much missing but gives a general idea.. Please remember these are just generalizations, in all eras your likely to find MDMA from many synthetic routes it's just some have been more popular than others depending on time and region.
My guess is, in regards to impurities and GCMS, is that unless they are there in pretty significant amounts the lab won't care to publish the findings. Is this correct lucid?
All that said the chances of stumbling upon leuckart synthesized MDMA is probably like winning the lottery. I doubt many have tried it who didn't take MDMA before 95.
-GC
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LucidSDreamr
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∆ forgive me if u mentioned earlier...but can you connect how these good or bad routes produce MDMA in temrs of the three issues we believe are structurally to blame (ee, polymorphs or isobars)
indigoaura
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I will add this information because it may be relevant. I used MDMA for the first time in 2000. Encountered my reliable vendor probably around 2001. What he told me at that time was that the product was all coming in through Asian organized crime. Later, there was a huge bust in the area that involved many restaurants. The drugs were being hidden inside fish and sent to the restaurants. It was all over the news at the time. So, I do not think that the product I was using was being locally produced. I don't know if that makes any difference in regards to how it was being synthesized.
Well right now the best theory I can think of still lies with impurities. We do now after discussion and research see variations in polymorphs but we've yet to find any rhyme or reason to them other than certain crystallization methods which still may or may not produce the desired polymorph.
For leuckart, it was a product that was unique in its impurities. Not only was the product generated impure, but the impurities have been proven to be psychoactive. One study only looked at a few more obscure ones but what they found was interesting. The two impurities they found with significant activity were both from leuckart and one was the n-formyl analog of the other. This is significant because it tells us formyl-MDMA is likely psychoactive as well.
We aren't sure how much formyl-MDMA was in the pills of the early to mid 90's, but one study on PMA (or was it PMMA?) from leuckart found roughly 20% was the formyl analog. So theoretically there was likely a good amount of formyl-MDMA in the pills of the late 90's
As time went on smaller chemists took over. And indigo I do appreciate your post as it further solidified my statement. That bust may seem big but in the grand scheme of things still small related to the production of the early 90's. Like I said these guys back then were cooking a million doses in a sitting, probably more than that lab produced ever. And likely those guys were only supplying your city or state, not the world.
It was at the late 90's early 2000's where everyone was getting in on the action and thanks to the internet people were able to find good cleans way to synth. I would say the second era had good product close to the way shulgin describes it (i.e. Shulgin didn't mention your jaw would hang off your face or grind your teeth to nubs..). This era also marked the beginning of chemists producing crap tho as well. As we see the piperanol route was taking over in china by the mid 00's and as we kindly learned from indigo it seems that route produces mdp2p-ol which likely negates the effect while also causing sickening symptoms.
Actually indigo this makes even more sense you got thru Asian networks as your change in product around 2005 correlates perfectly with the change towards piperanol in Asia around that time.
Again each route is unique and each area is as well so hard to generalize too much beyond 2000 or so.
And finally I'm unsure yet of the problems associated with the glycidate produced MDMA. Sadly that remains a mystery but we'll find the answer if we dig.
For now I'm kind of back on the impurity bandwagon as its theory with the most evidence to back it up but I am open to there being other variables either separately or in tandem. For instance the early 90's could of been due to impurity but these days it could be EE, polymorphs or some other issue.
I'd also like to say when thinking of "good" MDMA we must realize there is technically more than one route which produces unique but still good product. Certain batches will still be subjectively good but vary from one another. With this we must realize comparing our experiences to see who's taken "the good stuff" is in a way not very effective in determining when and where it's been. As we're finding everyone has a different view of good and for one person that may be gurning til their gums bleed and dancing the night away whereas for another it may be how much love they feel for the world around them. All subjective which only makes this harder..
Gotta run for now,
-GC
For leuckart, it was a product that was unique in its impurities. Not only was the product generated impure, but the impurities have been proven to be psychoactive. One study only looked at a few more obscure ones but what they found was interesting. The two impurities they found with significant activity were both from leuckart and one was the n-formyl analog of the other. This is significant because it tells us formyl-MDMA is likely psychoactive as well.
We aren't sure how much formyl-MDMA was in the pills of the early to mid 90's, but one study on PMA (or was it PMMA?) from leuckart found roughly 20% was the formyl analog. So theoretically there was likely a good amount of formyl-MDMA in the pills of the late 90's
As time went on smaller chemists took over. And indigo I do appreciate your post as it further solidified my statement. That bust may seem big but in the grand scheme of things still small related to the production of the early 90's. Like I said these guys back then were cooking a million doses in a sitting, probably more than that lab produced ever. And likely those guys were only supplying your city or state, not the world.
It was at the late 90's early 2000's where everyone was getting in on the action and thanks to the internet people were able to find good cleans way to synth. I would say the second era had good product close to the way shulgin describes it (i.e. Shulgin didn't mention your jaw would hang off your face or grind your teeth to nubs..). This era also marked the beginning of chemists producing crap tho as well. As we see the piperanol route was taking over in china by the mid 00's and as we kindly learned from indigo it seems that route produces mdp2p-ol which likely negates the effect while also causing sickening symptoms.
Actually indigo this makes even more sense you got thru Asian networks as your change in product around 2005 correlates perfectly with the change towards piperanol in Asia around that time.
Again each route is unique and each area is as well so hard to generalize too much beyond 2000 or so.
And finally I'm unsure yet of the problems associated with the glycidate produced MDMA. Sadly that remains a mystery but we'll find the answer if we dig.
For now I'm kind of back on the impurity bandwagon as its theory with the most evidence to back it up but I am open to there being other variables either separately or in tandem. For instance the early 90's could of been due to impurity but these days it could be EE, polymorphs or some other issue.
I'd also like to say when thinking of "good" MDMA we must realize there is technically more than one route which produces unique but still good product. Certain batches will still be subjectively good but vary from one another. With this we must realize comparing our experiences to see who's taken "the good stuff" is in a way not very effective in determining when and where it's been. As we're finding everyone has a different view of good and for one person that may be gurning til their gums bleed and dancing the night away whereas for another it may be how much love they feel for the world around them. All subjective which only makes this harder..
Gotta run for now,
-GC
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LucidSDreamr
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Now that's what I call a sushi roll!
indigoaura
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Actually, I am pretty sure the stuff I was accessing in the early 2000s was more than just local...here is an article on the bust I mentioned:
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/752673/posts
Interestingly, this article does not indicate an Asian source, but rather, Netherlands produced and Israel organized.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/752673/posts
Interestingly, this article does not indicate an Asian source, but rather, Netherlands produced and Israel organized.
I never said local but I can promise while that may seem big, it really isnt as big as it appears. 11$ million total over 5 years is a lot but imagine what the guys made back in the early 90's when they synthesized a million doses at a time? I'd bet they made many more millions than that. There's a reason Doves were everywhere and in many countries worldwide. Back then a few pills ruled the world whereas by early 00's there were MANY more chemists, middlemen, dealers, etc which increased the variability of the product out there.
I should rephrase my era rundown though cuz your right there was probably more large scale operations than I give credit. But keep in mind when I say small I still mean guys that are likely producing large amounts, just nowhere near the scale (in terms of production to chemists producing ratio) of the early 90's.
With that said it's making sense now why you liked the first stuff, it was probably either leuckart or more likely reductive amination via Al/Hg which both routes give what many consider "good" product. The fact they'd been in it since the late 90's means they likely had connections with chemists who had been around during the age of the mitzis and synthed in that way (again likely mdp2p to MD via al/hg).
It seems likely indigo you grew up on mdp2p to MDMA via Al/Hg, and then when that dealer stopped (which btw most dealers really don't know where it comes from, I've seen this personally) your new guy was supplying MDMA via piperanol to nitrostyrene with a decent amount of impurity which I haven't seen much positive feedback on. My guess is that actually your second guy was obtaining it via Asian connections based on my research as I said that route was popular around then.
-GC
I should rephrase my era rundown though cuz your right there was probably more large scale operations than I give credit. But keep in mind when I say small I still mean guys that are likely producing large amounts, just nowhere near the scale (in terms of production to chemists producing ratio) of the early 90's.
With that said it's making sense now why you liked the first stuff, it was probably either leuckart or more likely reductive amination via Al/Hg which both routes give what many consider "good" product. The fact they'd been in it since the late 90's means they likely had connections with chemists who had been around during the age of the mitzis and synthed in that way (again likely mdp2p to MD via al/hg).
It seems likely indigo you grew up on mdp2p to MDMA via Al/Hg, and then when that dealer stopped (which btw most dealers really don't know where it comes from, I've seen this personally) your new guy was supplying MDMA via piperanol to nitrostyrene with a decent amount of impurity which I haven't seen much positive feedback on. My guess is that actually your second guy was obtaining it via Asian connections based on my research as I said that route was popular around then.
-GC
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Glubrahnum
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Which begs the question whether the impure MDMA elicits more desirable subjective effects than pure racemic 3,4-MDMA.
Did you mean "Piperonal" ?
I did, thank you I always mix up the o and the a on that.
And indeed it does.. I think again that depends on what impurities but from my reading I've seen chemists talk of people preferring brown impure product over the purified. And even read of people who would do an acetone wash then consume the impurities that were dissolved in the acetone and consume that which was described something along the lines of "hella strong!" Typically I think the chemists who spoke of this were doing standard for the time benzo wacker to al/hg or maybe some other fairly otc way to synth the ketone.
But then when we look at other routes we may find something like 6-chloro-MDMA which is theorized to not be too friendly on the body. Pretty sure they found out about that one after an mdma overdose but I'd have to check that again. Also if safrole makes it through the synthesis it actually produces a substance fairly toxic to the liver, so "aniseed, safrole" smelling product may feel good but that smell is also an indicator of liver toxic byproducts. Hence I look for that in my product (not that I've seen much difference between stuff that smells and stuff that doesn't in terms of quality) but if it's too strong I'll often pass it up.
With that said, who knows maybe that toxic byproduct is psychoactive too, we just don't know yet.
But Glubra you hit on an excellent point, theoretically MDMA should be at its highest purity ever and I've seen people post analysis which shows product above 99%. It does beg the question is our problem because it's too pure? Never thought you'd hear people say it but maybe it is the case. Although the pictures I see of "Dutch crystal" look like fused pieces of shit at times so who knows.. Most people don't know the difference between a crystal and a rock, most MDMA these days is likely fused to make such large appealing pieces but if it's really pure you still see nice crystalline structure here and there.
-GC
And indeed it does.. I think again that depends on what impurities but from my reading I've seen chemists talk of people preferring brown impure product over the purified. And even read of people who would do an acetone wash then consume the impurities that were dissolved in the acetone and consume that which was described something along the lines of "hella strong!" Typically I think the chemists who spoke of this were doing standard for the time benzo wacker to al/hg or maybe some other fairly otc way to synth the ketone.
But then when we look at other routes we may find something like 6-chloro-MDMA which is theorized to not be too friendly on the body. Pretty sure they found out about that one after an mdma overdose but I'd have to check that again. Also if safrole makes it through the synthesis it actually produces a substance fairly toxic to the liver, so "aniseed, safrole" smelling product may feel good but that smell is also an indicator of liver toxic byproducts. Hence I look for that in my product (not that I've seen much difference between stuff that smells and stuff that doesn't in terms of quality) but if it's too strong I'll often pass it up.
With that said, who knows maybe that toxic byproduct is psychoactive too, we just don't know yet.
But Glubra you hit on an excellent point, theoretically MDMA should be at its highest purity ever and I've seen people post analysis which shows product above 99%. It does beg the question is our problem because it's too pure? Never thought you'd hear people say it but maybe it is the case. Although the pictures I see of "Dutch crystal" look like fused pieces of shit at times so who knows.. Most people don't know the difference between a crystal and a rock, most MDMA these days is likely fused to make such large appealing pieces but if it's really pure you still see nice crystalline structure here and there.
-GC
The dutch and canadian rocks are either fused which is done by heating to its melting point and then cooled or rocked with MSM (being the less popular option). To anyone that's even remotely knowledgeable of chemistry, you know that you can't get big rocks with racemic product.
I don't know exactly what's going on with this discussion of mongy MDMA, but I've read several threads, even on this forum that have played out and no one gets close to the truth. Biscuit had some good points in another thread and yet I don't remember them.
My feeling is that the product we are getting IS racemic and I say that because all the *known* syntheses are not stereospecific. That means you're getting a racemic product. I guess it's possible with the big labs that they are doing some novel reaction that utilizes an achiral catalyst producing a non-racemic product. That to me is the only thing that may make sense. This discussion of crystallization polymorphs and precursors to me rings false. A precursor is a precursor and once you get to PMK (from glycidate or from safrole->isosafrole) the known reactions are all non-stereospecific. So the big labs would have to be doing some novel synthesis to break this.
This actually should be testable at home. What needs to be done is to take a quantity and isomerize it with d-tartaric acid as per this TEK (http://www.bluelight.org/vb/threads...-structure?p=10894102&viewfull=1#post10894102)
It's not exactly a completely scientific way of doing it because there will be losses, but it'll give you *some* idea.
What are the lab methods to isolate isomers? Someone please enlighten me.
I don't know exactly what's going on with this discussion of mongy MDMA, but I've read several threads, even on this forum that have played out and no one gets close to the truth. Biscuit had some good points in another thread and yet I don't remember them.
My feeling is that the product we are getting IS racemic and I say that because all the *known* syntheses are not stereospecific. That means you're getting a racemic product. I guess it's possible with the big labs that they are doing some novel reaction that utilizes an achiral catalyst producing a non-racemic product. That to me is the only thing that may make sense. This discussion of crystallization polymorphs and precursors to me rings false. A precursor is a precursor and once you get to PMK (from glycidate or from safrole->isosafrole) the known reactions are all non-stereospecific. So the big labs would have to be doing some novel synthesis to break this.
This actually should be testable at home. What needs to be done is to take a quantity and isomerize it with d-tartaric acid as per this TEK (http://www.bluelight.org/vb/threads...-structure?p=10894102&viewfull=1#post10894102)
It's not exactly a completely scientific way of doing it because there will be losses, but it'll give you *some* idea.
What are the lab methods to isolate isomers? Someone please enlighten me.
indigoaura
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I am not convinced that impurities are what made "old" MDMA better. I sincerely doubt that the people being treated for PTSD are getting impurities. But, the state you would have to enter in order to address old trauma would need to be a fearless, safe, mental state. Presumably, the pharmaceutical grade MDMA is still magical. I cannot imagine anyone overcoming ingrained fears otherwise.
I also have way more physical side effects from the "sleepy" MDMA. Sure doesn't feel clean when there are headaches, nausea, and dizziness for days afterwards.
The pharmaceutical grade MDMA used to treat PTSD is certainly magically at 99.5% pure, I think this is the only video on youtube with a clip of a therapy session,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rhhi9H8fNdc&t=98s The amount used for this session was 120mg
Clear to see the MDMA has the effects you would expect of a high quality product, I think it's amazing the way you can actually see she is emotionally healing,
talking about her suppressed fears now being out in the open, and dancing and making art.
I would like to know how the pharma grade MDMA is made, as in whether or not they always use the original safrole precursor, I haven't found much info on-line about that, but on the MAPS website it does say The synthesis of MDMA usually begins with the precursor safrole, considering they said usually instead of always I think it suggests that PMK could be used as the precursor to make pharma grade MDMA as well. If it couldn't be used I think they would have written some information about that on the site and it just isn't there.
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I'd tend to agree with you Indigo I was more playing Devils advocate, I'm fairly certain the MDMA I've known and loved all these years has always been fairly pure and the impure stuff like for you typically gives me physical side effects.
I have to ask anon why you dismiss polymorphism and impurities when I've presented so much information to support the opposite. We have loads of anecdotal information and some from highly regarded chemists stating different effects from different polymorphs as well as Raman spectroscopy to show indeed MDMA produces more than one polymorph. For impurities we have studies which both show the presence of impurities in decent amounts as well as one that even shows some of the ones found can be fairly psychoactive.
I agree I believe racemic product or close to it is mainly what people are getting these days, but you confuse me when you state the polymorphism or impurities ring false then switch back to talking about EE. Your likely right on the EE but you need to realize chemists these days could give a shit about purity, it used to be about purity because it had to better fit into a pill and was sold more a pill to pill basis than weight and appearance. Now that the market has changed there is more incentive to either leave impurities for extra weight or to better help them fuse these together. A little excess precursor oil (amongst other things not getting cleaned out) does great to help fuse the mass together. From what I've seen when typing in Dutch mdma crystal is a lot of times an opaque tan/brown/yellow rock which is quite obviously impure.
I feel I can state it as fact, may not be why Dutch mongy crap exists, but impurities do play a roll in the overall experience. If you'd like me to link sources for any of the information above I can do so or direct you elsewhere on the site where I may have it posted.
-GC
I have to ask anon why you dismiss polymorphism and impurities when I've presented so much information to support the opposite. We have loads of anecdotal information and some from highly regarded chemists stating different effects from different polymorphs as well as Raman spectroscopy to show indeed MDMA produces more than one polymorph. For impurities we have studies which both show the presence of impurities in decent amounts as well as one that even shows some of the ones found can be fairly psychoactive.
I agree I believe racemic product or close to it is mainly what people are getting these days, but you confuse me when you state the polymorphism or impurities ring false then switch back to talking about EE. Your likely right on the EE but you need to realize chemists these days could give a shit about purity, it used to be about purity because it had to better fit into a pill and was sold more a pill to pill basis than weight and appearance. Now that the market has changed there is more incentive to either leave impurities for extra weight or to better help them fuse these together. A little excess precursor oil (amongst other things not getting cleaned out) does great to help fuse the mass together. From what I've seen when typing in Dutch mdma crystal is a lot of times an opaque tan/brown/yellow rock which is quite obviously impure.
I feel I can state it as fact, may not be why Dutch mongy crap exists, but impurities do play a roll in the overall experience. If you'd like me to link sources for any of the information above I can do so or direct you elsewhere on the site where I may have it posted.
-GC
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LucidSDreamr
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When u say a racemate can't create big rocks that isn't true. See wiki entry on racemic mixture -- crystalization
You can't. You'll get shards that are perhaps a 1-2cm at the absolute biggest but that's it, nothing like the "rocks" that you see. Those are all fused via heating to melting point. It has to do with importation ease.
Back to the case at hand. The reason I discount polymorphs is because it just doesn't seem like a likely reason. All that a polymorph should effect is the melting point temperature, not absorption. I assume you think that the different polymorphs have different rates of absorption? I mean I guess that's possible, but it doesn't seem likely.
I think what we know for sure is that a non-stereospecific synthesis WILL yield the racemate compound. So unless we get someone in here that has worked at a dutch lab to say "no, we are using a novel synthesis with an unwatched achiral catalyst yielding a non-racemate product" or someone who can analyze it, I'm not sure where to go from here. And I don't want to cut off discussion, I'm just calling it as I see it. I really like the discussion.
I'd love to see a new reagent be developed to test for the enantiomeric balance of MDMA. It would have to be some combination of tartaric acid and other shit. I wish I were knowledgeable enough to develop it.
Back to the case at hand. The reason I discount polymorphs is because it just doesn't seem like a likely reason. All that a polymorph should effect is the melting point temperature, not absorption. I assume you think that the different polymorphs have different rates of absorption? I mean I guess that's possible, but it doesn't seem likely.
I think what we know for sure is that a non-stereospecific synthesis WILL yield the racemate compound. So unless we get someone in here that has worked at a dutch lab to say "no, we are using a novel synthesis with an unwatched achiral catalyst yielding a non-racemate product" or someone who can analyze it, I'm not sure where to go from here. And I don't want to cut off discussion, I'm just calling it as I see it. I really like the discussion.
I'd love to see a new reagent be developed to test for the enantiomeric balance of MDMA. It would have to be some combination of tartaric acid and other shit. I wish I were knowledgeable enough to develop it.
LucidSDreamr
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^Different polymorphs absolutely have different rates of absorption. I've seen examples where certain polymorphs of a compound have drastic improvement serum levels obtained.
This difference in absorption is what makes it possible to patent a polymorph of a drug that is already patented...it happens alot.
This difference in absorption is what makes it possible to patent a polymorph of a drug that is already patented...it happens alot.
It's obvious reading posts that people have done far more research than I have into the chemistry and synthesis of MDMA, I do not know as much detail about it.
So some of what I'm saying here could be wrong, and I'm probably repeating things you already know.
When I read about this issue on different forums, most often people say that the new precursor being used instead of safrole is likely the reason why some modern MDMA has diminished effects. The problem I feel with that theory is it could be unlikely, because PMK I think has always been a part of the process of making MDMA.
Just before they used safrole to produced PMK, and now they use pmk glycidate, which I believe is a simpler process than creating it via safrole anyway.
So am I right in thinking there should actually be less chance of impurities in respect of the precursor, because clandestine labs can now effectively begin a stage ahead,
instead of a stage behind where impurities could occur during the process of obtaining PMK from the safrole route?
What struck me as interesting on the MAPS site is they say the precursor is just the very beginning of the process, and from that starting point there are then several synthetic routes that can be used to reach the final molecule. This made me think if a lab uses PMK-glycidate to produce MDMA and their product has some impurities that diminish the effects of the drug, I wonder if it's far more likely that these impurities will have occurred during the second stage synthetic route that they chose to use, rather than it being due to the PMK conversion.
But the thing is as far as I know, the synthetic routes used to produce MDMA from PMK haven't changed, and are still the same as back in the 70's.
Maybe it is often simply the case, like G_Chem mentioned that the primary focus of a lot of labs won't be the purity, rather it will be a profit focused attitude instead of a scientific one,
it's one thing to know a method, and another to control it and oversee it in a scientific fashion, I can imagine many labs being basically like, bish bash bosh, there's the MDMA, shift it and sell it, without thoroughly checking the product at the individual stages of it's production.
So some of what I'm saying here could be wrong, and I'm probably repeating things you already know.
When I read about this issue on different forums, most often people say that the new precursor being used instead of safrole is likely the reason why some modern MDMA has diminished effects. The problem I feel with that theory is it could be unlikely, because PMK I think has always been a part of the process of making MDMA.
Just before they used safrole to produced PMK, and now they use pmk glycidate, which I believe is a simpler process than creating it via safrole anyway.
So am I right in thinking there should actually be less chance of impurities in respect of the precursor, because clandestine labs can now effectively begin a stage ahead,
instead of a stage behind where impurities could occur during the process of obtaining PMK from the safrole route?
What struck me as interesting on the MAPS site is they say the precursor is just the very beginning of the process, and from that starting point there are then several synthetic routes that can be used to reach the final molecule. This made me think if a lab uses PMK-glycidate to produce MDMA and their product has some impurities that diminish the effects of the drug, I wonder if it's far more likely that these impurities will have occurred during the second stage synthetic route that they chose to use, rather than it being due to the PMK conversion.
But the thing is as far as I know, the synthetic routes used to produce MDMA from PMK haven't changed, and are still the same as back in the 70's.
Maybe it is often simply the case, like G_Chem mentioned that the primary focus of a lot of labs won't be the purity, rather it will be a profit focused attitude instead of a scientific one,
it's one thing to know a method, and another to control it and oversee it in a scientific fashion, I can imagine many labs being basically like, bish bash bosh, there's the MDMA, shift it and sell it, without thoroughly checking the product at the individual stages of it's production.
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Anon, check out this article called...
"Polymorphism: The phenomenon affecting the performance of drugs."
Google that and you'll find it easily. It shows a number of drugs which have "better bioavailability," "better GIT absorbtion," "higher therapeutic potential," etc. While most of these are pharmaceuticals not "get you high" type of drugs it still shows different polymorphs have different effects in the body.
I'd be willing to bet the differences don't end with increased bioavailability and such for drugs which do get you "high."
And yup labs these days need that product on the shelves asap, shit we've got this edm mainstream culture born over the past 7-8yrs which demands more MDMA than ever before. People hitting multiple day festivals multiple times a year, rolling each night they are there. No time to distill freebase or even an acetone wash as that's money down the drain. As long as it's a nice big chunk that tests right on the reagents and isn't horribly dark or black the consumer is typically "happy" (or so they think.)
Well theko in actuality the amination step in the synthesis has seen improvements since way back when, there's some pretty novel routes people like those on the hive have uncovered. With that said it's likely many still used the tried and true routes.
We must remember though that any impurities at any stage can be brought through to create additional impurities...
We always assume this Chinese PMK glycidate is pure as the driven snow when the Dutch or whoever receive it but I can tell you one thing for sure, Chinese aren't known for their pure drugs. Last batch of 5-mapb I bought from china was the most impure crap I've ever seen, there was rubber hosing in the bag.. Imagine the conditions if rubber hosing is falling to pieces into the product.
If this PMK glycidate was impure any impurities would likely be brought through to the final product. Whoever receives this PMK glycidate assumes it's pure and proceeds. It's a recipe for some unknown impurities and possibly more.
Surprised I just thought of that... Anyone know what kind of impurities might be present in PMK glycidate?
One more thing racemic MDMA can form decent sized crystals but it isn't easy and takes a long time going slow with it. Typically though most product on the market is fused like described by anon.
-GC
"Polymorphism: The phenomenon affecting the performance of drugs."
Google that and you'll find it easily. It shows a number of drugs which have "better bioavailability," "better GIT absorbtion," "higher therapeutic potential," etc. While most of these are pharmaceuticals not "get you high" type of drugs it still shows different polymorphs have different effects in the body.
I'd be willing to bet the differences don't end with increased bioavailability and such for drugs which do get you "high."
And yup labs these days need that product on the shelves asap, shit we've got this edm mainstream culture born over the past 7-8yrs which demands more MDMA than ever before. People hitting multiple day festivals multiple times a year, rolling each night they are there. No time to distill freebase or even an acetone wash as that's money down the drain. As long as it's a nice big chunk that tests right on the reagents and isn't horribly dark or black the consumer is typically "happy" (or so they think.)
Well theko in actuality the amination step in the synthesis has seen improvements since way back when, there's some pretty novel routes people like those on the hive have uncovered. With that said it's likely many still used the tried and true routes.
We must remember though that any impurities at any stage can be brought through to create additional impurities...
We always assume this Chinese PMK glycidate is pure as the driven snow when the Dutch or whoever receive it but I can tell you one thing for sure, Chinese aren't known for their pure drugs. Last batch of 5-mapb I bought from china was the most impure crap I've ever seen, there was rubber hosing in the bag.. Imagine the conditions if rubber hosing is falling to pieces into the product.
If this PMK glycidate was impure any impurities would likely be brought through to the final product. Whoever receives this PMK glycidate assumes it's pure and proceeds. It's a recipe for some unknown impurities and possibly more.
Surprised I just thought of that... Anyone know what kind of impurities might be present in PMK glycidate?
One more thing racemic MDMA can form decent sized crystals but it isn't easy and takes a long time going slow with it. Typically though most product on the market is fused like described by anon.
-GC
- Status