What is wrong with the MDMA available today?

[indigoaura]

Did you consider that this can be a deliberate strategy of the War on Drugs.

Yes, absolutely. Makes total sense that way.

 

[SympatheticMD]

Just reading your description of old school ecstasy took me right back there with you MD. Spot on description my friend. And of course I remember the orange juice! It was all about the fruity flavors. They tasted incredible! I also remember the high being very loud. Just sitting with my girlfriend as we started taking off the high was very noisy. It was like being on a roller coaster. At times I would feel sober and things would get quiet for a second and Id think it was all over and then within seconds BAM!! my eyes would be shaking all over the place and Id be right back on the roller coaster again. I also felt like I was walking on a cloud at times. Like I couldnt touch the ground. Did you ever get that? I also remember always needing someone to be with me when we started feeling it. I rememeber others saying things like please dont leave me okay. I get absolutely non of these feelings on todays crap. Oh I lament.

Yeah I remember those things. It seems crazy to me that I forgot the details (but I guess I was under the influence at the time). I never had rollercoaster at the beginning - it was oh shit, here it comes, maybe if I try to breath it won't be so dramatic - and then my body went into a state of light and airy bliss that I think I've never felt any other way. The orange juice was always due to the myth that it helped it last longer. I looked it up, and it can act as a cofactor in some way. And the walking on the cloud - even better biking on a cloud, but had to be careful to stick to straight streets because your vision was affected. And god forbid someone get up and go to another room to get water...everyone would insist that the person come back soon, then feel bady that they were alone, and then one person (usually me) would go check on them. Must stay in the group!

 

[LucidSDreamr]

indigoaura - they didn't specify the exact ratio. I think I was reading the Boulder test protocol for that one, but they have other tests and protocols you can see. I doubt they will ever specify ingredients. As of now, all I found is that they prove they have 99% pure MDMA via gas chromatography. I hope their machines include the fancier ones that someone else was describing on this thread.

I'd be curious to look at the testing protocols. I think we don't keep in mind that the testing being done is only looking for "known drugs, cuts contaminants or by products" They do not look for things they don't know exist therefore don't see them. Even if they did see peaks corresponding to unknowns substances, they would never undertake an investigation requiring many man-hours and probably analytical instruments they don't have.

Thus these GCMS or LCMS labs aren't really looking at the big picture and when they quote purities of a substance I would love to see the full lab protocol/instrument settings that they use if this information is public.

I worked in this GCMS drug testing/drug analysis industry for two years before leaving it, and I can tell you that these labs are not equipped both instrument wise and personel wise to make such definitive statements with regards to purity and contaminants

 

[indigoaura]

So...what can we do?

I'm serious.

All of the traditional things that you could do to safeguard yourself seem to no longer work. Testing kits won't work. Sending it to a lab won't work. How in the world do you keep yourself safe? How do you find MDMA that is actually MDMA?

I just spent awhile on another forum reading some new user comments, and it is crazy how many people are out there who are NEW USERS who say MDMA is NOT euphoric. Obviously, there is a legitimate issue here. There are even people arguing how it is different every time and has a wide range of results. That was never my experience. If anything, it was the one reliable thing that always felt good and created a good time, no matter what was going on or how south everything went.

One time, my friends and I were at an amusement park. We all took MDMA. It started to rain hardcore and the amusement park flooded. We were all wandering around in knee deep water, laughing and loving every minute until we were kicked out. Then we huddled in a car, having an awesome time. Nobody cared that we couldn't ride roller coasters. Nobody cared that we were squished in a car surrounded by floodwaters. The MDMA made the moment great.

So, where do we find that MDMA? How do we differentiate? There has to be some way to proceed with a plan.

 

[slowsloth]

I also was an avid Xsty user for years. I remember when it came it pill form and it was usually laced with other drugs ranging from meth to heroin based X. But when I moved up north I could not find "X" anymore. All they had here was MDMA which is supposed to the pure form which is why is comes in the crystalized form. It is commonly known as Molly. It still works but I agree the feeling is quire different, especially the next day. I an not sure if I prefered the pills over Molly.

 

[LucidSDreamr]

So...what can we do?

I'm serious.

All of the traditional things that you could do to safeguard yourself seem to no longer work. Testing kits won't work. Sending it to a lab won't work. How in the world do you keep yourself safe? How do you find MDMA that is actually MDMA?

I just spent awhile on another forum reading some new user comments, and it is crazy how many people are out there who are NEW USERS who say MDMA is NOT euphoric. Obviously, there is a legitimate issue here. There are even people arguing how it is different every time and has a wide range of results. That was never my experience. If anything, it was the one reliable thing that always felt good and created a good time, no matter what was going on or how south everything went.

One time, my friends and I were at an amusement park. We all took MDMA. It started to rain hardcore and the amusement park flooded. We were all wandering around in knee deep water, laughing and loving every minute until we were kicked out. Then we huddled in a car, having an awesome time. Nobody cared that we couldn't ride roller coasters. Nobody cared that we were squished in a car surrounded by floodwaters. The MDMA made the moment great.

So, where do we find that MDMA? How do we differentiate? There has to be some way to proceed with a plan.

we want a safe solution to felony criminals acts. Until the laws change nothing will change, as recreational drug users aren't the type to pony up and fund massive illegal research projects and changes in manufacturing in clandestine labs in order to have better drugs.

I say buy RCs ala 6apb or 5apb. drop acid. Still pretty good in my opinion, better than mdma in some ways. I've personally never gotten bad mdma or pressed pills other than stuff that was completely bunk.

 

[indigoaura]

I remember when it came it pill form and it was usually laced with other drugs ranging from meth to heroin based X.

This is misinformation. Ecstasy never contained heroin, and years of lab test results will support this. There is no such thing as heroin based ecstasy. The pills I used to get were sent in to a lab and they were MDMA, yet they felt totally different than the MDMA that is currently accessible. Something has changed.

And LucidSDreamer, sorry, but I just don't believe that there is nothing to do but stand around and twiddle our thumbs and wait for it to maybe be legal one day. We are smart people. There has to be a way to approach it to figure it out.

 

[LucidSDreamr]

This is misinformation. Ecstasy never contained heroin, and years of lab test results will support this. There is no such thing as heroin based ecstasy. The pills I used to get were sent in to a lab and they were MDMA, yet they felt totally different than the MDMA that is currently accessible. Something has changed.

And LucidSDreamer, sorry, but I just don't believe that there is nothing to do but stand around and twiddle our thumbs and wait for it to maybe be legal one day. We are smart people. There has to be a way to approach it to figure it out.

I was surprised to hear (on a recent episode of Hamilton's Pharmacopia I think it was) that there was in fact an xtc pill analyzed which contained heroin and not mdma. I believe this was during the time period in the 90s.

 

[pofacedhoe]

UK

still got badass md

and by god is it euphoric and reliably so BUT at this age the novelty has worn off. I know what it will do, i Know how i will feel and its the same every time, one big orgasmic yawn

 

[indigoaura]

I was surprised to hear (on a recent episode of Hamilton's Pharmacopia I think it was) that there was in fact an xtc pill analyzed which contained heroin and not mdma. I believe this was during the time period in the 90s.

One anomaly is a lot different than EVERY pill being either cocaine or heroin "based." I remember arguing with people about this way back. They were convinced that to make ecstasy, you started with either cocaine or heroin. SMH.

 

[LucidSDreamr]

I prefer my MDMA to be synthed from heroin ...it makes for a great high

 

[Glubrahnum]

So...what can we do?

I'm serious.

All of the traditional things that you could do to safeguard yourself seem to no longer work. Testing kits won't work. Sending it to a lab won't work. How in the world do you keep yourself safe? How do you find MDMA that is actually MDMA?

We must discover the actual chemical difference and develop an inexpensive test kit capable of spotting this difference.
IMO once users can distinguish between the bad "MDMA" and good one, the market will correct itself naturally.
For example, if the difference is in the enantiomer ratio then an addition of a chiral acid (e.g. a L-Tartaric acid) to the reagent test kit might enable spotting the difference.

But in order to develop such test kit, first I would need to test many bad vs. good "MDMA" samples and that is problematic because publishing my address to have such samples sent would probably land me in jail. Also my spectrometer is not able to distinguish enantiomers and an upgrade would cost several tens of kUSD.

You don't think it would be possible to crowdfund it, do you? See what LucidSDreamr wrote:

...as recreational drug users aren't the type to pony up and fund massive illegal research projects and changes in manufacturing in clandestine labs in order to have better drugs.

Before that happens, the lack of Mydriasis in the users of bad "MDMA" is your best indicator.
Look for some Guinea pigs...

 

[indigoaura]

Glubrahnum, I think it could totally be crowdfunded. Recreational drug users who recall what MDMA was like in the 90s are not kids. They are professionals with paychecks. This is a conversation that has been going on in my social circle for years. The question is not whether it could be crowdfunded, the question is whether it would be legal to crowdfund for such a purpose.

More evidence:
Ran into an old acquaintance this weekend. He is not a regular user of MDMA, but recently had tried some of the same MDMA that I have access to. Totally unprompted by me, he says "Do you know anywhere to get the old stuff?" I asked him what he meant. He said, "Well, this stuff gives the jaw movement but not the warmth, not the empathy." He then commented on the lack of a depressed comedown.

So, in other words, same observations I had without any suggestion by me at all.

I still wonder about approaching existing harm reduction groups with this theory and seeing if we can find a lab that could legally test and look for additional factors. MAPS is pretty tied up with their medical research, but is there anyone else who would have an interest in something like this?

 

[MrRoot]

In my opinion taking MDMA now doesn’t feel like what it did when I started to roll in 2006 but I guess it is just that nostalgy and getting bored to MDMA although I did feel something like those first times when I used MDMA last spring after a abstaining from it for multiple years. Now after using MDMA for every few months it feels kind of blaah again.

This same has happened with opiates for me. The first few nods were great but I haven’t ever achieved those again although I have tried with increased dosages and boosting the nod with other chemicals.

 

[indigoaura]

It is not getting bored with MDMA, because there are new users who are not experiencing euphoria or eye dilation, even at high doses. That is not boredom or nostalgia, that is a measurable difference in effect.

 

[Le Junk]

I still wonder about approaching existing harm reduction groups with this theory and seeing if we can find a lab that could legally test and look for additional factors. MAPS is pretty tied up with their medical research, but is there anyone else who would have an interest in something like this?

Yes, I would definitely have interest in this. It's so silly to have arguments with people who talk nostalgia. All else aside, and that's a ton of stuff, but the pupils don't lie. Set aside the things that people could legitimately argue come from nostalgia and throw the pupil thing in. The argument is over. No pupil dilation and you've got junk MDMA my friend. End of story.

 

[LucidSDreamr]

Glubrahnum, I think it could totally be crowdfunded. Recreational drug users who recall what MDMA was like in the 90s are not kids. They are professionals with paychecks. This is a conversation that has been going on in my social circle for years. The question is not whether it could be crowdfunded, the question is whether it would be legal to crowdfund for such a purpose.

More evidence:
Ran into an old acquaintance this weekend. He is not a regular user of MDMA, but recently had tried some of the same MDMA that I have access to. Totally unprompted by me, he says "Do you know anywhere to get the old stuff?" I asked him what he meant. He said, "Well, this stuff gives the jaw movement but not the warmth, not the empathy." He then commented on the lack of a depressed comedown.

So, in other words, same observations I had without any suggestion by me at all.

I still wonder about approaching existing harm reduction groups with this theory and seeing if we can find a lab that could legally test and look for additional factors. MAPS is pretty tied up with their medical research, but is there anyone else who would have an interest in something like this?

Doing any research on MDMA would cost way more to do and take way longer to get approval (years) due to legality...which it would never get because ppl not getting high is not a reason for the DEA to grant a license to research a schedule I drug.

We are talking at least 100k probably more.

This is better left to ppl working in academic labs that wouldn't mind doing it anonymously on the side of thier normal research

 

[G_Chem]

I can't believe people would ever say MDMA isn't euphoric.. I'll agree there can be variance based on set and setting but that is typically a rare event to have a not so great experience and even rolls where I've gotten super sick (I have a fucked up stomach and on occasion get really sick) I still kind of enjoy it.

As Glubra said once we discover the issue we can then employ the right method of detection for determining which is which. I've kinda taken a bit of a hiatus but just made a pretty decent discovery/connection last few days.

I'm now completely certain in my theory that early to mid 90's ecstasy and the different feeling it induced was due to the fact it was produced via leuckart. I've mentioned this a few times but before it was a loosely based theory, now it's got a lot to substantiate it.

Real quick recap, leuckart MDMA was typically rather impure compared to other routes. The impurities found are known to be psychoactive and there's even a research study to back that up.

Essentially I took a look back at the paper that sparked this theory and noticed they didn't just test one sample, they tested MANY samples and only showed the chromo of one sample. I confused the wording but they say explicitly at this time most samples were produced in this fashion. The analysis of the tablet showed both DMMDA and formyl-mdma among other impurities both of which are likely psychoactive.

Next I began to think about it. When MDMA was made illegal and then popularized in the late 80's early 90's who do you think were the guys to pick up on the demand? The people already synthesizing illegal drugs, and even better a close relative. Amphetamine cooks. All they had to do was alter their synthesis slightly to produced MDMA. Leuckart was at least then the main route of production for amp.

It wasn't until the later 90's that the leuckart was moved to the side for higher yielding "cleaner" MDMA routes. Anytime a question is ever asked about it people will reply "why when a AL/HG reduction is so much easier and higher yielding??" Well maybe we now see a reason to use this method.

The final nail in the coffin is located in the leuckart info found in rhodium I believe and elsewhere. In there is a post from someone obviously involved with the mdma production of days old. He speaks broke English but tells of how they used to produce it large scale. The route uses 150L of MD-P2P!

To give you perspective on how much that is. That amount when run through a leuckart would yield roughly 1 million standard ecstasy tablets of the day.. These dudes were synthing a million doses of MDMA in a sitting.. I can't even begin to imagine how much money they made..

They were likely obtaining the ketone via chemical supply in the barrel full.

While can say fairly certainly about that era, I still can't say on this one.

It appears we've gone through a few different phases with MDMA since it's been popularized. Late 80's to early mid 90's. Lates 90's to late 00's. And pretty much 2010 to present. It seems these times get constantly referenced aswhen there were obvious changes in the experience given. These times also correlate with two rather large changes in the way these drugs are synthesized.

As of right now I guess all we can do is keep trying to find ways to differentiate via any means between good and bad product and to keep each other informed on our findings. For instance you do find a batch of good quality MDMA, what does it look like, what does it smell like, what were the exact reagent reactions, if possible what did a testing center find, what qualitative effects there were, etc. Same can be said for the shitty stuff too.

I'm back to thinking this is probably an impurity issue more than anything. Looking at a lot of photos of product from elsewhere and I'm disgusted with what I see passed off as "shards" these days. Opaque brown clumps with absolutely no crystalline formation to them, god only knows what's in that. I will say color isn't a huge deal but opaque-ness and zero crystals means a decent amount of garbage.

Guess we continue on trying to find the answer. Any mdma chemists reading this start cooking leuckart MDMA lol.

-GC

 

[Holly.3]

Who remembers the pink Playboy bunny pills from the mid-2000s? Any thoughts?

 

[IamaBonobo]

Can labs like Energy Control and Ecstasy Data detect the presence of DMMDA and formyl-mdma? I imagine if they would be able to as long as they had a good reference standard for those materials.