What is the function of the ego?

[Xorkoth]

Mutnat - I urge you to have an experience with one of the real tryptamines... DMT or 5-MeO-DMT might be best (because they - especially 5-MeO-DMT - facilitate ego loss very powerfully and directly), or a good dose of mushrooms. It sounds like the experiences you've had couldn't possibly have resulted in much ego submission. Here I had assumed you had experienced strong tryptamine states. You're right, our language cannot describe the psychedelic state. But experiencing it can cause you to understand it in a way that language cannot. And until you've experienced it, I respectfully conclude that you can't possibly make the statement that ego death/submission is an illusion.

To answer your other question, a half-eighth of mushrooms is 1.75 grams. It was my first psychedelic state and they weere very good mushrooms and the set/setting were great.

 

[adrian89987]

Maybe ego-death should just be called 'the void' or something so that so many people can stop getting tripped up on whether the ego is more than a psychs bad idea or whether it really truly dies. It seems like some of us are talking about relatively the same idea, and many people just seem to hate the words used to label such an indescribable event.

 

[swilow]

Ego loss= return to the hive mind. Bzz

 

[demons]

The original post brought up evolution. In my opinion, it is clear this is the reason we have egos and it's easy to see why. As we all know in evolution the genes that make an organism better at surviving and reproducing are selected for and increase in numbers. Why would the ego make an organism better at surviving and reproducing?

Well, it helps in these efforts if you think of yourself as one thing and everything else as something else, because then you will try really hard to do "your" things and pass on "your" genes. If everyone knew the big secret, which is that everything is one and there are no real boundaries or differences or identities, then no one would struggle to defeat other organisms and out-do them in the reproduction contest, because the organism would know there is no difference between his genes and anyone else's, he would not be biased in favor of "his" own.

The ego is a kind of trick played on us by evolution. Evolution is a very beautiful and amazing process, but it is completely amoral--not moral or immoral, but unrelated to morality, indifferent. So it has led to enormous suffering on this planet because of this one huge misconception that I am different from you.


About the discussion as to what exactly ego means, and what it means to lose it. I have a strategic suggestion for anyone interested in that question. A couple people brought up the good point that this term is not well-defined or specific in general speech. Xorkoth gave a very good brief definition but as with most terms relating to psychedelics, the definition is too often different in each person's mind. Half the trip reports I read claim ego loss, and it ranges from a mild strange feeling all the way to actually losing the sense of self.

My suggestion is to approach the question in way unrelated to psychedelics, and read some stuff about Zen Buddhism and other meditation-based religions. Those guys describe the state of egolessness that they call Enlightenment at great length and in great detail; they have been studying consciousness firsthand for centuries. The Enlightenment state is not at all the same thing as the bemushroomed or Salvia'd state (personally I completely disagree with the theory many psychusers have that these are two different paths to the same place) but the two types of mental state have in common the following, speaking based on trip reports and Zen texts I have read: a huge surge of positive emotions like gratitude, appreciation, joy, and love, an intellectual redefinition of the Self to include everything and lack boundaries or divisions or separations, and an acceptance of death. As long as you define yourself as a thing separate from the rest of the Universe, you know you are going to end, and that is naturally upsetting and scary. You are also limited in your scope of appreciation of Nature, because bounded by ego you can only appreciate things that benefit you. So basically, I'm echoing the definition Xorkoth gave of ego, what separates you from the rest of the Universe and defines you and identifies you, and I'm encouraging people to check out reports on Zen meditation because this is the alternative way of experiencing your true identity which is Everything, and unlike texts on psychedelic experiences, most of them are rigorous and specific, almost scientific.

It's interesting to me that someone said if you are egoless then you would let people into your house to take your stuff. That's true! Zen Masters who have achieved egolessness actually do that. In Zen Buddhism they teach that all desire leads to suffering. I can link this very much to my own life. I am always worrying about my car, my computer, my apartment, etc. If someone did come in and rob me I would feel absolutely horrible. It's like in Fight Club they said : The things you own end up owning you. I'm a slave to my car and my computer, because I believe I need them. How much better would it be to be totally free, so that no one has the power to ever take anything away from me even if they leave me homeless and penniless, even if they kill me?

The people I feel most sorry for are the wealthy and powerful people who own entire continents, our leaders. What a horrible life they must have constantly worrying about their interests and striving to get more and more. We are taught to believe the rich and powerful have more freedom but it is the exact opposite, they are slaves to the most powerful egos. They are terrified of losing what they have, so they brainwash us and kill our minds with consumerism and hide from us behind gates and guards. So much better to have nothing. That's my goal.. to have nothing.

 

[mutnat]

I have to read this thread in detail, becuase all references to psychology etc are of interest to me.

OrneTTe, I think I made my point pretty clear - what I oppose to and why. Loosing ego [for a while] is different from having it die. Also I am not saying that users of such phrases are irresponsible, I say that believing annoys me. Especially when it comes from people supposedly open-minded [because psychedelics open you mind] and non-dogmatic.

The Enlightenment state is not at all the same thing as the bemushroomed or Salvia'd state (personally I completely disagree with the theory many psychusers have that these are two different paths to the same place)

This is pretty interesting as well, the comparisons between the two major classes of psychedelics have much much philosophical potential. Please say more, or maybe there should be a new subject for this.

In general, it seems that the arguement you got against what I say is:

'You haven't been there, so you can't really tell, you can't have an opinion'

Fuck, so I need to eat a thumbprint so as to have some opinion about it?

What are the benefits of having an intense experience for me? since I have felt and lived benefits off my older lsd experiences that, yes, they were not big, but still I have felt all the range of the benefits that psychedelic users describe in their sober lives....

I didn't say LSD/LSA are the only psychoactives I have consumed, did I?

Why doesn't anyone talk about salvia, while it's the major candidate to cause something that could be called ego-loss? Please explain this....

I do intend to do DMT, I cultivate a wide range of psychoactive plants, but it's not something I want to do to feel what other psychonauts describe. That;s the believers way

Xorkoth, with all the respect, I have felt elimination of ego with salvia ~ but it's the deeper and long-lasting effects of the classic psychedelics that enabled me to see the wolrd from other perspectives. Are you sure everyone need such overwhelming experiences to see the big picture or to benefit??

No, the thing is you believe there is something to see if someone, ANYONE consume just enough of some substance.

Xorkoth illusion is something that lasts for little time. And reality is what still exists when you stop believing it. I am not sure these standards are valid for those who have done much psychedelics, but I feel no need to reject my rationalism.

 

[OrneTTe]

We are not telling you that you need to eat a thumbprint or anything. Just more than a 1/2 hit. This state that we are talking about can be reached from normal doses like Xorkoth's experience with less than 2 grams of mushrooms. This is a very reasonable dose. I don't see how you felt anything but speedy and maybe a little euphoria from 1/2 a hit. The reason I didn't really bring up Salvia is because it works in a totally different way than the classic psychedelics, possibly having action on the Kappa opioid receptors instead of having an action on serotonin plus I have never been able to get much of anything useful from it. I never really lose ego, just turn into something else. But really, you do need to go higher than a threshold dose to see the true power of these chemical allies. Like I said, we are not talking about heroic doses, just a good solid dose of a classic tryptamine. You seem so sure of what the state ISN'T, that I think if you ever get close to being there, maybe you could tell us what you think it IS.

 

[Recept]

OrneTTe, I think I made my point pretty clear - what I oppose to and why. Loosing ego [for a while] is different from having it die.

How can you be so sure though? Have you died, or know someone who has died and then described you the experience?

I'm not sure who actually coined the term "ego-death", but I think that it might have had something to do with Timothy Leary's version of Tibetan Book of the Dead, called "Psychedelic Experience". If you haven't already, I suggest you read it, it is available online:

http://www.erowid.org/archive/hyperreal/drugs/psychedelics/leary/psychedelic.html

While I can't say that I agree with Leary on all points - he was somewhat of a nut, and way too enthusiastic about liberating the world with psychedelics (delusions of grandeur, anyone?) - I do quite enjoy his writing style and I think he did a great job with the translation/adaption, which is the main point about this anyway.

Now I can't really say I've actually experienced "ego-death" (mystical/transcendental/religious/psychedelic/samadhi/satori/etc experience/state/enlightenment - you get the drill), but I was close once and what I experienced was strikingly similar to some of the things described in that book. And I don't mean just the visions - many of these types of visions can be experienced when tripping -, but rather a part of the actual experience, or more like a glimpse. (I won't bother to go into details right now, will gladly elaborate if someone's interested.)

Also, a great deal of the vast number of trip reports available online seem to have a lot in common with many phenomena found in that text. I'm pretty sure that Leary also saw the similar (perhaps even identical?) natures of these experiences, hence the translation with added commentary on the topic of psychedelics.

In his version, he uses terms like "ego-loss", "ego games", "ego-consciousness", etc, so it's not that hard to see how someone would come up with the term "ego-death" from that. And, TBH, personally, aside from unfortunately wide-spread mis-use of this term, I have actually no problem with it. I could easily see the ++++ experience as something as profound as Death (not literal of course), followed by Rebirth - why not - of the Ego, if you don't have a problem with that word.

Bardo Thodol was written by the Tibetan lama-gurus centuries ago. In exoteric sense, it is supposed to prepare you for the actual experience of death, but it doesn't of course have to (nor is meant to) be taken just literally.

It is a book for the living as well as the dying.

And apparently these guys knew their transcendental experience if they managed to describe in such intricate detail the many aspects of these states of being that numerous people are experiencing today in the western society under the influence of psychedelics! No?

What I'm trying to say is that maybe losing your ego for a while isn't so different from dying after all. Because death doesn't have to be a permanent thing, you know?

 

[Recept]

^^ Oh, and I agree that dose is not a factor with these experiences. Some people will never experience that Unity, despite all the heroic doses they take, and some people will be There when they least expect it and at the tiniest dose. I mean, the lowest dose that has the capacity to manifest psychedelic effects of course. I experienced my glimpse of transcendence on like 1.5 grams of mushrooms. And it wasn't even at the peak, it was like 4-5 hours into the trip.

Why doesn't anyone talk about salvia, while it's the major candidate to cause something that could be called ego-loss? Please explain this....

...

Xorkoth, with all the respect, I have felt elimination of ego with salvia ~ but it's the deeper and long-lasting effects of the classic psychedelics that enabled me to see the wolrd from other perspectives. Are you sure everyone need such overwhelming experiences to see the big picture or to benefit??

I wouldn't really describe salvia as particularily ego-stripping.. It's more like a semi-conscious dream, visitation to a parallel universe.. I mean, you may forget who you are, but you won't lose the sense of "I", even if "you" are just a wall of some random house, or every circular object in the universe...

At least I've never heard anyone report experiencing the mystical unity on salvia.

 

[KingKoopa]

I think that using "ego-death" as a catch all term for the effects of psychedelic drugs on the sense of self is too limiting. When I say "ego-death" I may mean quite a few things, including taking on an amorphous sense of self, observing self as a vague third party, a complete loss of free will, or what have you. There are quite a few ways to destroy the sense of self.

 

[Recept]

^ Well that's really a question of semantics I suppose.. But I've always thought of ego-death as the ultimate loss of all concepts associated with the ego (such as the "I", "my life", "my work, friends, relations, goals").. dissolution of all boundaries, time ceases to exit (only the eternal moment called the Now is left), experiencing the infinite interconnectedness and unity and oneness of the universe.. becoming the Love itself.. etc etc.. or something like that maybe?

 

[psood0nym]

The Enlightenment state is not at all the same thing as the bemushroomed or Salvia'd state (personally I completely disagree with the theory many psychusers have that these are two different paths to the same place)

This is pretty interesting as well, the comparisons between the two major classes of psychedelics have much much philosophical potential. Please say more, or maybe there should be a new subject for this.

I'm interested in this as well, and have argued similarly in the past. I would classify 5-HT hallucinogens, dissociatives, and salvia as all producing different forms of egolessness, based on subjective and pharmacological criteria, with an understanding that there can be overlap in the subjective experiences between them. There seems to be plenty of room for making a distinction beyond mere semantics between some of these different states. Indeed I've read, not surprisingly, that brain scans of meditators practicing techniques meant to overwhelm them entirely with compassion until an "I" ceases to exist are different than those techniques meant to achieve a similar state through disinterested passivity. The subjective difference is between a feeling of absorption and one of dissolution (I find the latter, when drug-induced, to be far more traumatic.) Likewise, believing you are someone or something else on salvia is technically not ego loss but rather a kind of identity substitution/re-appropriation. That there are many ways to lose ourselves is only problematic when we understand "I" as always referring to one persistent entity.

 

[grimble crumble]

I'm interested in this as well, and have argued similarly in the past. I would classify 5-HT hallucinogens, dissociatives, and salvia as all producing different forms of egolessness, based on subjective and pharmacological criteria, with an understanding that there can be overlap in the subjective experiences between them. There seems to be plenty of room for making a distinction beyond mere semantics between some of these different states. Indeed I've read, not surprisingly, that brain scans of meditators practicing techniques meant to overwhelm them entirely with compassion until an "I" ceases to exist are different than those techniques meant to achieve a similar state through disinterested passivity. The subjective difference is between a feeling of absorption and one of dissolution (I find the latter, when drug-induced, to be far more traumatic.) Likewise, believing you are someone or something else on salvia is technically not ego loss but rather a kind of identity substitution/re-appropriation. That there are many ways to lose ourselves is only problematic when we understand "I" as always referring to one persistent entity.

uponed up a whole new door in my head, I completely agree

 

[MasterOfDeception]

Xorkoth illusion is something that lasts for little time. And reality is what stil lexists when you stop believing it. I am not sure these standards are valid for those who have done much psychedelics, but I feel no need to reject my rationalism.

I agree about that being external reality dude. But the reality an individual perceives is the combo of external reality(the point one can perceive it) and his subjective reality.

It's not also about those that have done much psychedelics. Doubting the nature of reality and philosophizing on it, although inspired and related to psychedelics is not necessarily limited to psychedelic use.

No, the thing is you believe there is something to see if someone, ANYONE consume just enough of some substance.

I think Xorkoth told you it's not about dosage and happened to him with less than 2g shrooms.

Still, I personally think that when psychonauts let go as much as possible, they will have quite enough similarities in their experiences .. (differences too.. but still ).

Are you sure everyone need such overwhelming experiences to see the big picture or to benefit??

Overwhelming experiences usually bring out much more fiercely what's in your mind/soul ,and you have much less potential of denying issues inside you etc. So one can benefit more from it. A threshold experience just scratches the surface. I think a psychonaut should have a normal-dose experience (what i call normal might be what you call strong) at least once. Then he can reach deep states even with lower dosages, the doors will be already easier to open.

 

[swilow]

Ego death sounds too violent. I think its more the Godheads-birth then anything. - yes.

 

[KingKoopa]

^ Well that's really a question of semantics I suppose.. But I've always thought of ego-death as the ultimate loss of all concepts associated with the ego (such as the "I", "my life", "my work, friends, relations, goals").. dissolution of all boundaries, time ceases to exit (only the eternal moment called the Now is left), experiencing the infinite interconnectedness and unity and oneness of the universe.. becoming the Love itself.. etc etc.. or something like that maybe?

Sure. Thing is, that can be expressed in different ways. Say I take a hit of salvia and all of a sudden, my thoughts aren't my own, there is no free will, and everythings predetermined, and i'm part of some sinister yet godly machine and time has stopped, etc. Thats ego death, is it not? On the other hand, if I drink a ton of ayahuasca, and start rotating identities, eventually becoming an amorphous representative of consciousness or some such, thats ALSO ego death, as it would be described by many. However, these are two different things entirely when you look beyond that catch all phrase. Losing your sense of self is just the beginning.

 

[Changed]

surprised nobody brought Buddhism into this conversation yet...

 

[BristolRob]

Buddhism and psychoanalysis offer the best narrative for understanding the psychedelic experience IMO

One of the best books I read recently was "psychoanalysis and Buddhism" - there's a lot of overlap between the two

I'm interested in reading "Buddhism without belief" - anyone read this?

 

[swilow]

Buddhism is a very good lens to use in making sense of some aspects of psychedelics I have found. I do find it to be more practical then a lot of teachings in that the various writings on Buddhism contain real-life information to use in...real life. I like to pick and choose from these belief systems- I especially find the meditation aspect of Buddhism very rewarding and healing, plus it is one of the best ways to control a difficult experience; more effective then most sedatives we'd normally resort to

Though I thought buddhhists spurned drug use, by and large? From the viewpoints of 'attachment' I can undertand why; thus comments like Allan Watts "When you gett the message, hang up the phone..." One doesn't want to mistake the effects of the drug with the drug itself, if that makes sense.

 

[Ismene]

I think you can make any model fit the psychedelic experience if you really want to. It's like that deranged fan who came up with some daft model of what John's songs meant and then said "It all fits!!" and Lennon just said "ANTHING FITS! If you're tripping off on some trip, ANYTHING FITS".

 

[mutnat]

I think that using "ego-death" as a catch all term for the effects of psychedelic drugs on the sense of self is too limiting. When I say "ego-death" I may mean quite a few things, including taking on an amorphous sense of self, observing self as a vague third party, a complete loss of free will, or what have you. There are quite a few ways to destroy the sense of self.

Nice entry! Glad to participate in this discussion

You say "There are quite a few ways to destroy the sense of self", still this 'destruction' is effective for little time - I say the ego & self-centeredness quickly return, maybe only hurt / weakened / etc ... or with a couple more awareness of whats going on.... in the bottom line you're changed, but the change has a great deal to do with who you are, what you dream of, and what you want, what you're afraid of, or what fits you.

So, if death for example, is a matter of concern to you, you got lots more possibilities to live through overwhelming, extreme, religious experiences. That's one thing.

Indeed the term 'ego death' is little too violent, permanent, drastical.

I undestand that maybe some or many people choose / need bigger doses for a general change to take place, but who can argue about evevyone having to do a big dose to get insights and 'illumination'?

OrneTTe, I didn't even say I have only used 1/2 of a tab. I have also used 1/2 tab plus 1/2 more at +8:00 to have a nice prolongued session a couple of times, yet not strictly recreational. I also had a microdot once - unfortunately it was in a shitty for me sourounding, a psychedelic tracne party and it ended up shitty. Bad decision in my part. Very intense experience. Was great for the first 3 hours, then it flipped over....

How can you argue, pal, that one hasn't got lucid insight and realisations from working with 10 or so various mid psychedelic doses of lsd you claim can be archieved from a single big dose [the elaborating on the past experiences over time is premised] ? Can you?

Also, you also doubt that I had a profound experience with 1/2 hit of lsd, which was my first experience actually ~ well , there's not a lot to tell about this.

I don't see how you felt anything but speedy and maybe a little euphoria from 1/2 a hit.

nonsense. I know what I lived.

psood0nym,

nice to read your thoughts mate!

I'm interested in this as well, and have argued similarly in the past. I would classify 5-HT hallucinogens, dissociatives, and salvia as all producing different forms of egolessness, based on subjective and pharmacological criteria, with an understanding that there can be overlap in the subjective experiences between them. There seems to be plenty of room for making a distinction beyond mere semantics between some of these different states

Nice, nice...

Dissociatives like Salvia or Amanita have a distict aneasthetic-like effect, propably what most call their dreamy quality. I think the effect there can be described harshly as a separation of head, brain and body ~ with all the countless possibilities this would offer to a serious researcher / explorer ~ and all the different understanding and poinof-views of each individual.

The same goes with the classics, to each his own, but we got a great distiction her: while dissociatives have a switching off, aneasthetic effect, dreamland thing, classic psychedelics have a definate turn-on in every part of ourselves, psych, emotions, senses, heat, taste, thought pattern ,sight, hearing ect .. finally cocnluding in the unitemess of everything and the archaic echoes life gives out...

Still, some tend to believe that both dissociatives and psychedelics lead to the same end ~ I am not so sure at all. A substance is a tool ~ you might be doing various things with it

I believe f.e. even alcohol can be used as an entheogen if used in a suited setting.
====

I like that ego is also mentioned as an evolution-related power by some posters! This is a pretty strong point right there

I also find that this whole discussion has a lot to do with humanism and whether humanism is just utopia [that might be worth living for] or whether it pays philosophically to place utopias aside and look the sheer truth. I am not really sure this has anything to do with use of psychedelics, but I also suspect the whole thread is a lot more than just dosing...

Has anyone heard or read about Max Stirner?

like I said, glad to be in this discussion