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what is the effect of addiction on moral culpability for addiction related actions?

I am not so sure that addicts have such a right, and even if they do, I fail to see how this right grants them carte blanche to infringe the property rights of others.

I am not defending drug prohibition, and I certainly have compassion for addicts, but it is ludicrous to suggest that the states discrimination against drug users somehow absolves drug addicts of responsibility when they infringe the rights of individuals in order to feed their addiction.

It seems like you haven't read the rest of my posts on this thread. I think my stance is explained in detail. I'm not sure why people take what I said as me saying that drug addicts should either be absolved of their wrongdoings because of their addictions, or have a right to take anything from anyone because of their addictions. That's not what I'm saying at all.
 
I did read the whole thread. It seemed to me that you made an implicit distinction between legal and moral responsibility, but that must be my mistake. When you said stealing to feed a habit is not a moral failure, I took you to mean it was not immoral.

I should also clarify that the last sentence was not directed at you specifically, I was simply stating my general opposition to the idea that addicts are not morally blameworthy for immoral actions performed to feed their habit, which is an idea some posters seemed to be expressing in this thread. Sorry for the confusion.
 
Addicts are morally responsible for their our behaviour. I guess I am scum according to Pastor SKL because I stole money and things from my family during my addiction. I chose to do this because I had a need and was unwilling to deny that need. I was selfish, I asked for forgiveness and I received it; I am not worried about the fate of my non-existent soul, except that I hope I don't make it to heaven. ;) I do not see ANY value in flagellation and self-disgust, escpecially as these such traits are often well hidden by drugs. I see it as a vicious cycle, that drug addicts are seen as weak sinners, self-loathing commences and drugs start seeming all that bit more appealing. But, I am aware that no-one in this topic is saying drug use and addiction is immoral. But yes, the actions one may engage in when addicted, such as stealing, lying, all that dark shit- they are immoral. However, I believe in diminshed responsibility. A crime by an addict is probably not something they would have enagaged in were they not an addict. This doesn't negate the fact of actions being criminal and immoral, but it changes the platform upon which these actions are decided upon. A desperate person will do things they would not normally do. They are still not right in doing these things, but I can understand and forgive that stuff easier.

I was raised catholic. I've had people around me my whole life who punish themsleves for their weakness with self-hate. Sin? What is sin? An excuse for objective morality? I see no value in such impositions, except a negative value. Christian morals of human weakness can get fucked. If god made us as these weak entities, why does he punish his own mistake? My answer is that god is not real, never was. If god was real, there is no reason to worship this asshole. Christian morality is an inescapable degradation IMO, its a system where you are a sinner even before you are born. A tough burden to shoulder, knowing you have been made to be an immoral and selfish asshole and that you will pay for that eternally. Under those auspices, drugs are an inevitable reaction.

No offense SKL, but I find your views on morality in this matter to be archaic and largely unhelpful.
 
addicts are morally responsible for their our behaviour. I guess i am scum according to pastor skl because i stole money and things from my family during my addiction. I chose to do this because i had a need and was unwilling to deny that need. I was selfish, i asked for forgiveness and i received it; i am not worried about the fate of my non-existent soul, except that i hope i don't make it to heaven. ;) i do not see any value in flagellation and self-disgust, escpecially as these such traits are often well hidden by drugs. I see it as a vicious cycle, that drug addicts are seen as weak sinners, self-loathing commences and drugs start seeming all that bit more appealing. But, i am aware that no-one in this topic is saying drug use and addiction is immoral. But yes, the actions one may engage in when addicted, such as stealing, lying, all that dark shit- they are immoral. However, i believe in diminshed responsibility. A crime by an addict is probably not something they would have enagaged in were they not an addict. This doesn't negate the fact of actions being criminal and immoral, but it changes the platform upon which these actions are decided upon. A desperate person will do things they would not normally do. They are still not right in doing these things, but i can understand and forgive that stuff easier.

I was raised catholic. I've had people around me my whole life who punish themsleves for their weakness with self-hate. Sin? What is sin? An excuse for objective morality? I see no value in such impositions, except a negative value. Christian morals of human weakness can get fucked. If god made us as these weak entities, why does he punish his own mistake? My answer is that god is not real, never was. If god was real, there is no reason to worship this asshole. Christian morality is an inescapable degradation imo, its a system where you are a sinner even before you are born. A tough burden to shoulder, knowing you have been made to be an immoral and selfish asshole and that you will pay for that eternally. Under those auspices, drugs are an inevitable reaction.

No offense skl, but i find your views on morality in this matter to be archaic and largely unhelpful.

qft
 
A few comments on the anti-Catholic stuff:

NSFW:
I really wonder what it would be like if we discussed the actual question raised rather than my religious beliefs, which really don't frame my contributions to this discussion at all, except for a few choices of words … equally amazing that merely using a few such words is able to cause this thread to degenerate increasingly into a lot of edgy but ultimately clichéd atheist talking points; the questions of theodicy and "judgement" by religious persons raised above are so sophomoric as to be worthy of no response and clearly emanate from people who haven't done much study or contemplation on the subject beyond the surface or their own co-disbelievers' self-reinforcing memes. I'll keep in mind the apparent acceptability of this kind of discourse the next time we start to discuss the Jews.

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However, to respond to some of the more substantive content above:

]However, I believe in diminshed responsibility. A crime by an addict is probably not something they would have enagaged in were they not an addict. This doesn't negate the fact of actions being criminal and immoral, but it changes the platform upon which these actions are decided upon. A desperate person will do things they would not normally do. They are still not right in doing these things, but I can understand and forgive that stuff easier.

"Diminished responisibility" in the legal sense is about mental illness and not understanding the difference between right and wrong; this is not the case for an addict, although we are legendarily known for our ability to justify shit to ourselves, I don't think we have the excuse that we "can't tell the difference." Agree of course the desperation figures into crimes/sins/wrongdoings by addicts done in order to obtain drugs. But as I said before, this is not a Jean Valjean–bread theft–type situation, they're drug addicts because they enjoy drugs and it got the better of them, they're not hungry, poor and naked out of some social circumstance out of they're control. The addict's fault. Worthy of sympathy? Maybe, but so are sinners/wrongdoers/criminals in general IMO (in my personal opinion, in my religious opinion, in my professional opinion), the addict shouldn't get anything special in that line.

Oh, and I haven't even gotten into the sins I've committed related to drug use that weren't related to obtaining drugs. Some of those are probably even worse, and I'd hope less justifiable to the rest of you, if equally unjustifiable to me.
 
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There is a point I believe, when immorality becomes survival. The only inexcusability comes from those it affects badly, and those who know no distinctions of morality and survival.
 
I do not see ANY value in flagellation and self-disgust

In all seriousness this is one of the things that turns me off of mainstream religion. I fail to see what positives come from this way of thinking. Even the way SKL talks about HIMSELF as a degenerate junkie... How the hell is that supposed to be positive or self empowering? I had a somewhat ill-fated debate one time with a friend who became a born again christian in which I asked him about homosexuality being a sin. I don't remember his exact reply but it was something along the lines of we're all sinners also. I'm by no means an LGBT crusader but why the hell should someone feel guilty for something that's not even wrong? I'm not even an atheist but for every good point of the major religions it seems like it's always met with something else that makes you go "HUH?". I figure it should be enough to try to be a good person but not crucify yourself for every mistake you make. Try to learn from them and move on imo.
 
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great post. I totally agree

Heh, that's scary. I should say that I don't judge people by their religion even tho I might disagree. Hell I don't even necessarily believe there is no god or higher power, but once you get on a soapbox or jam it down people's throats to me it makes you an open target.
 
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I wish I could always say the same. I grew up in the worst of Christianity but I do think there are some decent christians. Like you I have no idea if there is a conscious creator. Considering how life works on all levels of kill and devour I'm concerned if there is one.
 
I don't see any benefit in these kinds of harsh, unproductive, critical judgments. Humanity has failed and succeeded in a million different ways. It's little more than a platitude to point that out.

When people have loving support, community, and material necessity taken care of, it becomes a lot easier to live from their true nature, which is one where they are aligned with love, consideration, and self-actualization.

But our human systems are designed to make everything seem insufficient, no matter how much you've already achieved. Sin is one of those systems. So, no matter how much I self-actualize, I'm supposed to believe I'm still a sinner? Fuck that. I don't buy that story, I refuse to take it on.

People don't need Christ they need to remember their true selves which is not all these guilt ridden stories.
 
A few comments on the anti-Catholic stuff:

NSFW:
I really wonder what it would be like if we discussed the actual question raised rather than my religious beliefs, which really don't frame my contributions to this discussion at all, except for a few choices of words … equally amazing that merely using a few such words is able to cause this thread to degenerate increasingly into a lot of edgy but ultimately clichéd atheist talking points; the questions of theodicy and "judgement" by religious persons raised above are so sophomoric as to be worthy of no response and clearly emanate from people who haven't done much study or contemplation on the subject beyond the surface or their own co-disbelievers' self-reinforcing memes. I'll keep in mind the apparent acceptability of this kind of discourse the next time we start to discuss the Jews.
NSFW:


You're being a touch disengenous. You are framing the immorality of drug use as a 'sin'. Sin, the way I see it and the context that you are using it in, is a christian concept. It assumes objecivity, as the idea is that sin and the denotation of it comes from god. I simply do not agree with that.

Furthermore, in your first post in this topic you say:
"That's why we need Christ".
A christian 'solution' to this immorality.

You went on to say:

"I have a few more sins to confess from my childhood"
That suggests that your idea of sin can be expunged through confession. That's a catholic idea.

And:
"Most drug addicts are moral failures (meaning, that we have failed morally; so too, by the way, has everyone else, but here I'm talking in a more specific sense)
Thus one reasonably expect many if not most of us are moral failures."
By moral failure, you seem to be implying sin and I've already mentioned why I think sinfulness is lss than useful and that is a largely christian concept.

You are trying to say that your christianity does not 'frame' your contributions to this thread and yet, it patently does. Your idea of humans being inherent sinners is a christian idea, that such sins can be confessed and atoned for is a christian idea. The entire concept of sin as you express it is a christian idea. You are kidding yourself if you think your religious views are not guiding your ethical conclusions in this matter. For me, I find such a value system to be much more harmful than anything and that is ignoring the enormous existential illogic of the beliefs.

equally amazing that merely using a few such words is able to cause this thread to degenerate increasingly into a lot of edgy but ultimately clichéd atheist talking points

Feel free to write off my remarks as cliched if you find them distasteful. I simply respond in kind. There is little more cliched than the concept of the sinful/weak human, the failure who must atone through suffering and penance. I think that is a harmful and brutal perspective. But yeah, I am just an edgy atheist battling the righteous believer, right? 8)

You seem surprised that people have responded to you, on this very topic, to the points that they have- I cannot understand why you are surprised though. From the outset, you have framed a large part of your argument under the auspices of christian morality.

"Diminished responisibility" in the legal sense is about mental illness and not understanding the difference between right and wrong; this is not the case for an addict, although we are legendarily known for our ability to justify shit to ourselves, I don't think we have the excuse that we "can't tell the difference."

I agree. By diminshed responsibility, I mean that the extenuating circumstances provide some context behind an addicts actions, I'm not talking about a legal concept. I don't think addicts neccesarily want to commit crimes, but feel like they have no choice. Of course, they do, but that is very hard to see. I am not excusing criminal behaviour, but I am saying that I understand it at times and feel like addiction should be taken into account as a reason for criminal or immoral behaviour. Not an excuse, but some context. That is why I don't think that addicts committing petty crimes should be jailed but should be diverted to addiction treatment facilities. It seems that addiction can lead one to engage in criminal activities and if the addiction is removed, so too may be the criminality.


Oh, and I haven't even gotten into the sins I've committed related to drug use that weren't related to obtaining drugs. Some of those are probably even worse, and I'd hope less justifiable to the rest of you, if equally unjustifiable to me.

Well, I hope you don't beat yourself up too much for these wrongdoings. Everyone commits moral failures. It is how we learn. There is nothing to gain from beating yourself up for past actions- if you continue to repeat them, than yes, I understand being hard on oneself but if you have learned and will not do the same things again, your moral failing has become a catalyst for a future, positive outcome.

foreigner said:
People don't need Christ they need to remember their true selves which is not all these guilt ridden stories

Abso100%lutely.
 
^^Awesome post Willow.

I can only see the smear where the lines used to be. While I don't believe in God (subsequently I don't believe in sin), I do believe there are guidelines which keep us from being one thing or another. Is a drug addict a moral failure? Where the fuck is he failing? What is the moral truth he fails to attain?

Happiness? That isn't a moral absolute, that's an obligation, and failing to attain it isn't sinful, nor is it always a choice. Just life, I believe.

There has been quite a bit of radical disrespect in this thread. And I will start out by saying that the moral failures of Bluelight are not the drug addicts who have made a choice, but the ones who intended to harm another person or group of people. Junkies aren't here to hurt people, just feed a habit. And no objective fuck can possibly understand what drives users to do the things they (we) do.

And there is no God I need to confess a single goddamned sin to. If anything, he'd be the moral failure, but talk of no God tends to piss people off.

It is immoral to intend on hurting the ones you love while sober, it is survival to hurt the ones you love when crippled, not saying it is justification, but harm in survival is a debt, not a sin. It can be repayed much easier than a "sin". And it has.

It has.
 
I agree. By diminshed responsibility, I mean that the extenuating circumstances provide some context behind an addicts actions, I'm not talking about a legal concept. I don't think addicts neccesarily want to commit crimes, but feel like they have no choice. Of course, they do, but that is very hard to see. I am not excusing criminal behaviour, but I am saying that I understand it at times and feel like addiction should be taken into account as a reason for criminal or immoral behaviour. Not an excuse, but some context. That is why I don't think that addicts committing petty crimes should be jailed but should be diverted to addiction treatment facilities. It seems that addiction can lead one to engage in criminal activities and if the addiction is removed, so too may be the criminality.

It is also worth mentioning that jailing an addict for a petty crime will do nothing to stop them from getting out and repeating the same thing. Decades of hardline prohibition have shown us that incarceration doesn't change people - most of them just go out and do the same shit all over again. Which is why we need a more clever approach.
 
We live in a draconian culture here in the US. A first world country with a third world mentality at best.
 
Better rehabillitation, better education. No harsh laws, few exceptions.
 
I'm going to write a rather lengthy P&S type response, but first of all with regards to the religious tangent, I'd like to highlight to anyone who might have missed it that this discussion began as a tangent in itdrlg a thread from DC called Confess Your Drug Sins, which accounts for a great deal of the religious phraseology I have used in this thread, especially early on. Some people react in a rather agitated manner pretty much whenever God or religion is mentioned, and the responses tend toward a predictable and sophomoric statements about theodicy ("what kind of God would allow x," "if your God y, then I would never worship him," etc.) This is not an argument I'm interesting in having. We could revive my Catholic AMA thread which I have currently not been active in, if people really want to have a serious discussion about God. I think much of what we see here though is a knee jerk reaction to any mention of religion. But let's return to the issue at hand. In this post I am going to make a point of using non-Christian and in fact anti-Christian systems to discuss the same issue.

Obviously my religious beliefs inform my moral and ethical system, as is the case with anyone who follows a moral or philosophical system, however loosely one might want to apply it. But really, my case regarding moral culpability in addiction isn't necessarily based in my religion at all. I did not have any theological ideas in my head when I called out the original post in this thread as "bullshit," but rather principles which I think more or less approach cultural universals going back a very long time—

  • we are moral beings;
  • we have free will; and
  • we have moral obligations.
In terms of principles generally universally held we could add a proposition that we are obligated to follow the law, respect authority and the normative practices of society, but that's not one which will be very popular here for obvious reasons, so we'll omit it.

(a) and (b) of course are clearly linked. Dropping proposition (b) and adopting a deterministic philosophy obviously makes this entire debate moot (although, with cruel irony, inevitable.) Dropping proposition (a) while maintaining (b) I think is difficult, abandoning morals entirely for a completely nihilistic worldview is not very practicable: even solipsists look both ways before crossing the train tracks. Even nihilists, excepting that very rare bit horribly dangerous creature, the genuine psychopath, have people they care for, have regrets, and have limits on what they would, even only out of fear for the consequences.

I think most people can agree on the first propositions, however; pretty much every society has and does, with the possible exception of free will: Islam, for example, is extremely fatalistic) as are some branches of Christianity: the concept of predestination of the elect to salvation and others to damnation; this is not fatalism or determinism, however—we do in fact have free will, but God knows already how we will exercise it. Then, of course, there is the modern materialistic determinist who believes that we essentially live in a gargantuan billiard-ball universe neurochemistry and the firing of neurons which we experience as a loop of perception–cognition–behavior, drugs may be added to alter that, but the choice to take drugs is happening somewhere in the brain. If this is the case then talk of abstract morality is rather pointless, choices made, their consequence, and their morality are all illusory; and all three propositions are more or less negated, although we are still "free" to debate and discuss the issues. This is slightly analogous to the interpretation of predestination as God's foreknowledge, the only difference being the question of whether there is a "ghost in the machine."

Beyond that the questions as relates to the topic of the moral obligations of the drug user has a few dimensions relating to proposition (b), free will, the idea that the addict has diminished free will, i.e. diminished capacity; and the question of externalities acquitting him of some of his obligations or at least providing an "explanation, if not an excuse." This I'll address a bit later, but let's back up a bit, and look at a few philosophical systems that are very different, or even antithetical to my own—

Aleister Crowley (perhaps the edgiest man ever to draw breath, but a formidable intellect and very interesting individual nonetheless) famously said that under Thelema, "do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law," and elsewhere, "ordinary morality is for ordinary men," among many other such ideas. This, at a minimum, dispenses with proposition (c) above, and seems to be a little unclear about (a), although his conception of man as a moral being is certainly by traditional standards an inverted one, even though the counterpart of the famous "do what thou wilt" is "Love is the law, love under will" (a sentiment which would later echoed by ‎John Lennon ("All you need is …",) which initially turns the more well known formulation at least somewhat on it's head and less absolute, but again, open to a great deal of interpretation—especially the latter half, "love under will,"—which ouroborically returns us to will as the driving principle—Thelema, will. What makes a moral being to Crowley is what manifests will and what is amoral is what hinders the same will. We can already see some antecedents to clichéd maxim among the 1960's hippies, "if it feels good, do it," which is essentially a Crowleyian proposition.

Gardner with his constructed neo-Paganism, expands upon the law of Thelema to form a consequentialist ethic of "an it harm none, do what thou wilt," which can probably agree on this, and, while I'm admittedly somewhat out of my depth here, "harm none" might be interpreted to include harming oneself, cf. the Abrahamic ideal that our bodies are a temple of God, and ultimately we are accountable for what we do with them to something greater than ourselves. I'll leave this aside for the moment, as we're primarily talking here of causing harm to other people, but there is certainly an argument to be made (which I shall not do here) that harming oneself is a wrong. Let's again abandon this as the topic at hand is not the morality of harmful drug use and drug lifestyles per se. Some formulation of this philosophy is echoed in the Libertarian precepts of non-coercion and that violence (including State violence such as an arrest or seizure of property), is only permissible in self defense, but otherwise as the often repeated sentiment goes, "they're not hurting anyone [but themselves], let them alone."

Somewhat related to the "rede," although not precisely comparable, are the various formulation of the "Golden Rule" (which approaches being a cultural universal, actually, although the usual formulation that we here is a Christian one; Confucius and various other teachers in Hinduism, Buddhism and other traditions state functionally the same thing.) Kant's categorical imperative is arguably by and large a more abstract and universal form of the same teaching. Just for the sake of flavor, let's take a Hindu formulation: One should never do that to another which one regards as injurious to one’s own self. This, in brief, is the rule of dharma. This is a sort of heady mix of various forms of ethics deontology, consequentialism, and a dose of virtue ethics, but it's a very important one, one might call it the essential ethical formulation and perhaps another cultural universal.

So, basically, all of these systems are in agreement with all three propositions I mentioned at the top of my post. Crowley's antinomianism might seem to contradict both the idea that we are moral beings and that there is a moral standard, but in a subtle and inverted way, it does in fact acknowledge those propositions. A very interesting essay on the Thelemic law:

The Book of the Law succeeds in rendering all ethical questions trivially solvable, by banishing the concept of ethics altogether, and reducing all such considerations to a question of “is it in accordance with, and necessary for, the fulfillment of my will, or is it not?” The Thelemite is released from the requirement to consider others, and need concentrate only on his own nature. Of course, this does not mean he magically aquires the ability to “stamp down the weak” without any form of repercussion or sanction, but this always was and always will be the case; the lion cannot stalk the herd of wildebeest without risk. Similarly, if he happens to be the kind of person who enjoys pleasant and supportive company, then he will need to moderate his “stamping down” in order to encourage that. He is, however, released from all obligation to consider the “rightness” of his actions, and instead need focus only on the harmony of those actions with his will, which naturally includes a consideration of their likely consequences also.

So in this case one need only worry about the repercussions of his actions on himself; this is a sort of inversion of the categorical imperative or the Golden rule. Apparently, also, Crowley at one point stated, self-deprecatingly, but also, I think, making a serious point given his beliefs "I have never grown out of the infantile belief that the universe was made for me to suck." That is a perfect description of the attitude of many addicts and hedonists the world over. Freud, a rough contemporary of Crowley, spoke of the "oral stage" as the first stage of childhood psychosexual development, and considered it possible for people to become "stuck" in any of these phases, with various pathologies associated with them, oral fixation is associated by Freudians with dependent, manipulative and passive-aggressive personalities, and, yes, addiction.

Nietzsche, of course a great influence on Crowley, states "My formula for human greatness is amor fati: that one wants to have nothing different, not forward, not backward, not in all eternity. Not merely to bear the necessary, still less to conceal it—all idealism is mendaciousness before the necessary—but to love it."

All idealism is mendaciousness before the necessity. I believe this is the position being held by many posters in this thread, including drugs under the category of "necessity." Addicts surely believe so. But the ethics of both Crowley and Nietzsche, as well as many neo-pagan sects and similar groups, are based on Will. One might say that the addict's will is to get high, but the philosophical ideal of Will is a much greater drive than that momentary escape. Crowley certainly used his share of drugs as well as deviant sexuality and all sorts of hedonistic behavior which was of course incredibly scandalous at the time (he, in response, began calling himself "the wickedest man in the world.") But he had a higher goal, with all the magick and occult, seeking power and enlightenment. Nietzsche was speaking about confronting meaninglessness and the darkness in the world with amor fati, radical acceptance of fate; just as the faithful Muslim is forever saying insha'Allah. So there is a higher goal.

The common ground here is will, free will. And I believe that the addict retains it; so too would the worldviews I've cited here. Of them, Gardnerian neo-paganasm ("an it harm none…") may be the only one with particular condemnation of the bad behavior of an addict, Nietzsche perhaps as well, but for different reasons, like Crowley, he might think him a weak man, or a stupid man, particularly if he got himself into trouble one way or another.

But I think that it is free will that is the key here. If you say addicts have "diminished capacity," you are saying that our free will is lessened. I believe free will to be absolute on a philosophical (and theological) basis, as do most traditions. There were a few absolute materialist-determinists in ancient Greece (I forget which ones) and probably a few scattered about in Islamic thought and occasionally elsewhere, but real materailist-determinism now has it's scientific proponents but still isn't very popular because it makes people uncomfortable. If you take the materialist view, then drugs cause changes to the brain which cause cravings for the drug which cause problematic behaviors, or alter the consciousness and lead to bad behavior under the influence. The latter is self-evident, the former not so much.

I don't really buy into the idea that addiction, or mental illness for that matter, is "a disease like any other." I won't get into my ideas about mental illness here, but as far as addiction goes, I understand it as a series of bad choices that send you into a downward spiral. It's very much like a dysfunctional or abusive relationnship with a spouse where you still don't want to leave despite the fact tha it's hurting you. Divorcing the needle might likewise be hard. But if you're in such a relationship and you beat your wife, are you less culpable because you're in this fucked up psychological and relational cycle that's hard to break? Certainly not.

When an addict, or an intoxicated person, does something wrong, they are culpable; nearly every ethical system would believe so. People make mistakes, everyone does. Hopefully we learn from them. Beating up on oneself psychologically is not healthy, but an appropriate amount of self-examination, regret, contrition, etc. is important. When a person says "that is my disease, not I," it is not a healthy thing, they deny their own agency, thus denying themselves the opportunity to examine why they have done wrong. And when society sends the message that stealing from people, etc. is what addicts do, more addicts will probably do so because that's the expected behavior, culturally.

I agree completely with the need to reform drug laws but I'm adamantly opposed to programs that force people into addiction "treatment" facilities, which I basically don't believe in—when I was working out in the community I never sent any of my clients to one because I found 1:1 conversation with them about abstinence vs moderation vs harm reduction was the best thing. And I always made it clear to them that they were responsible for their actions.
 
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