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what is the effect of addiction on moral culpability for addiction related actions?

willy33

Bluelighter
Joined
Aug 27, 2015
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143
This is a conversation which began here, in a DC thread entitled "Confess your drug sins ..." and became in a few posts a more philosophical tangent ... so moved over here to P&S after d/w mods from both forums.

We shouldn't be referring to them as 'sins'. Believe me I understand the essence of the thread, but almost all of the 'sinful' behavior we have engaged in during addiction was/is a by-product of living in societies' which tell us drugs are 'bad', that we are 'weak' and essentially 'wrong'.

While I'm not trying to justify all the bad things I, we, us, have engaged in, I do think it bears remembering that a massive amount of this behaviour is a direct result of the draconian drug-regimes we have no choice but to exist under. While the War on Drugs continues, we will be seen not as medical patients in need of care, but rather listless zombies with no backbone.

The very fact a thread talking about our sins can generate so much response is indicative of the twisted and warped manner in which we view ourselves.

Peace :)
 
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^ Bullshit.

"Addiction is not a moral failure," people say. Maybe in some abstract biological sense.

The vast majority of addicts are, however, moral failures, as are most of the posters in this thread or most likely all of Bluelight.

That's why we need to change. That's why we need Christ. That's why we need whatever we need to get of this fucked up cycle.
 
^ Bullshit.

"Addiction is not a moral failure," people say. Maybe in some abstract biological sense.

The vast majority of addicts are, however, moral failures, as are most of the posters in this thread or most likely all of Bluelight.

That's why we need to change. That's why we need Christ. That's why we need whatever we need to get of this fucked up cycle.

I can't agree with that. If we're talking about "sins" such as stealing (or anything of the sort) in order to feed a habit, then it's not a moral failure. It is, as willy33 said, a result of the War on (some) Drugs. I'm sure you know very well how hard it is to resist doing something that hurts somebody else when you're in hellish withdrawals and your only hope is that dose which you can't afford. Had the drugs been cheaper, or drug-replacement maintenance services more available, a big portion of addicts wouldn't have to resort to crime to avoid withdrawal. Most addicts don't steal just because they want to, but because they need the money to fix themselves. This is one of the reasons why WoD is such a big failure. It makes otherwise normal and moral people behave as criminals.

To be honest, I'm somewhat appalled by your post. Drug use itself doesn't make one amoral, and the notion that it does is a big problem, because it results in social stigma that only worsens the situation for the addict (which lessens the likelihood of recovery). I understand that you're religious and I don't want to get into a debate about it (because it's fruitless), but I urge you to consider that what anyone does in their spare time is none of your business as long as they don't hurt anyone, and it is not a question of morality. Whether somebody likes to relax by reading a book, having sex, hiking, or consuming psychoactives is up to them.

Bottom line is, psychological support is very important in recovery, and labeling addicts amoral and whatnot is counter-productive. I wouldn't otherwise write such a long post about it, but I see the way of thinking you're proposing as a pretty serious problem.

OT: perhaps one of my most serious sins is having sex with another woman while drunk and thus cheating on my significant other.
 
This may warrant it's own thread, perhaps here in DC or even P&S ... I notified mods ...

I can't agree with that. If we're talking about "sins" such as stealing (or anything of the sort) in order to feed a habit, then it's not a moral failure.

That's completely delusional. As I said before I've been involved with armed robberies (I will leave the details and extent of my involvement vague for obvious reasons but I will say that I was not actually the one holding the gun but I did do some amount of harm to others, including collateral damage, and profited from it) for the purposes of obtaining drugs. Pretty sure I'm not absolved of the sins of traumatizing the pharmacist, hurting his business, hurting the people who had to miss their meds for a week or whatever, making his insurance premiums go up, whatever.

I stole $40 from my mom when I was about 14 which I think is possibly the larger sin. Other than that and the aforementioned, I have never stolen for drugs. I've worked my ass off hustling, mostly, during my heyday, selling other drugs to buy my drugs of choice. I made a lot of money. Most of it went up my arm. Drug dealing might be a sin or it might not in your view; if it was a sin, which I believe somewhat grudgingly, I committed it, and willfully. I viewed theft as a bigger sin, or at least a low down, scummy, low class thing to do, so I set my mind never to do it, and never did. If I was broke, desperately sick, and had no other recourse, I probably would have (specifically, probably another armed robbery.) But I would have been culpable. My most recent relapse was funded by a ~$20k loan I had taken out against my pension for entirely different purposes. Spending that has no victim other than myself but it still makes me an asshole. It is something bad and I should feel bad about it. I have Suboxone now. But I digress.

If you have to resort to crime to get drugs, then you are a criminal. You are not somehow a victim. That is a sickening attitude and goes really to the heart of the incredible entitlement and victim-mongering so prevalent in society today. If you have to resort to theft, then you're a thief. If you have to resort to violence, you're a violent man. If you steal from your family, you're scum. Drug addiction may be a motivating factor, but they do not exculpate you from sin, moral failure, whatever you want to call it. Of course there is forgiveness, reparation, repentance, and so forth.

Attributing moral failures and sins (or wrongdoing, if you prefer a secular term) to addiction is a denial of the addict's moral agency and an externalization of blame which is wrong, pathetic, and unlikely to lead anyone to a healthy relationship with their past. People talk about addicts "in denial," the "recovering addict" who doesn't consider things that he may have done in the course of his addiction which are wrong, to be, in fact, wrong, and he responsible for them, is perhaps in the most denial of all. The denial of moral agency is not only wrong, but it's demeaning to the addict. I own my sins, and others must too, if they want to get on with life.

It is, as willy33 said, a result of the War on (some) Drugs. I'm sure you know very well how hard it is to resist doing something that hurts somebody else when you're in hellish withdrawals and your only hope is that dose which you can't afford.

I've had several-thousand-dollar-a-week heroin habits before. I never stole anything in my life to pay for heroin (literally speaking; the pharmacy robberies were really long in my past tbh before I got seriously into heroin per se.) Going back into pharmacy-robbing, or identity theft, or big ticket shoplifting, or whatever, would've been no less or more wrong than had I not had such a habit. Full stop.

Had the drugs been cheaper, or drug-replacement maintenance services more available, a big portion of addicts wouldn't have to resort to crime to avoid withdrawal. Most addicts don't steal just because they want to, but because they need the money to fix themselves. This is one of the reasons why WoD is such a big failure. It makes otherwise normal and moral people behave as criminals.

To borrow from the legal concept of entrapment, if you're going to steal because one is an addict, you had it in you to steal before. I got out of the drug game because I was in a situation where I would have had to kill a man in order to protect my money and my reputation. I didn't do it, because I didn't have it in me to kill a man, or some might say I was a coward and afraid of prison, or whatever. A man owns what he does and doesn't do. Externalizing blame is for the weak.

And, practically speaking, to address some of the specifics of your post, methadone is, to the majority, quite easily accessible. If drugs were legal/cheaper then things would be different, of course, and I agree, better for everyone. To say that the fact that this is not the case and drugs are difficult to access, and therefore some people resort to crime and/or sin (not necessarily congruent, but often overlapping, concepts), victimless or otherwise, to obtain such drugs, does not diminish liability, and, in the case of crimes with victims, one's having done wrong to another human being.

To be honest, I'm somewhat appalled by your post. Drug use itself doesn't make one amoral, and the notion that it does is a big problem, because it results in social stigma that only worsens the situation for the addict (which lessens the likelihood of recovery).

I said nothing about the morality of drug use. I'm somewhat uncertain about it myself, but I certainly judge no-one for their drug use. I do, however, judge people who do wrong (or even obnoxious) things under, or to be able to be under, the influence. I don't hang out with low-life junkies who steal. Big ticket shoplifting or even doing robberies or ID theft is one thing, I have friends, I guess, who've been into that sort of thing, but anyone who'd steal from friends and family is not worth my time, and deserves whatever they get: violence, prison, whatever. They still have moral agency. And to deny them that is not only to let them get away with stuff but actually to dehumanize them and, even if in sort of a counter-intuitive way, strip them of a very fundamental aspect of human identity and dignity.

Even when I was a junkie I didn't like to hang out with them although of course sometimes I did because in our scene we ran in packs and that was the best way to get drugs. If, while I was an addict, I had somebody middle-man for me and he pulled a runner, and I found him later, I'd beat the shit out of him. He would've had it coming. Because he did me wrong. Wrong. Not just some symptom of the alleged "disease" of addiction.

I understand that you're religious and I don't want to get into a debate about it (because it's fruitless), but I urge you to consider that what anyone does in their spare time is none of your business as long as they don't hurt anyone, and it is not a question of morality. Whether somebody likes to relax by reading a book, having sex, hiking, or consuming psychoactives is up to them.

Nothing to do with anything I posted, just to make it clear. I'm not talking about drug use eo ipso as a moral failure, in fact I more or less explicitly said so in my OP, I'm talking about the fact that most drug users, or at least most drug addicts, are or become moral failures during the course of their use/addiction.

Bottom line is, psychological support is very important in recovery, and labeling addicts amoral and whatnot is counter-productive. I wouldn't otherwise write such a long post about it, but I see the way of thinking you're proposing as a pretty serious problem.

If you weren't aware, I do this for a living (not specifically substance abuse, but psychiatry in general which involves a lot of substance abuse issues.) I don't label anyone as amoral (except those that are, the true psychopath is a rarity though); in fact, I would argue that I treat them as moral beings more than you do. You deny them agency, I insist upon them understanding their own agency, their motivations, and, should they wish to change their patterns of use, try to help them build strategies to do so; should they wish to continue, I provide harm reduction; should they make know their intention to return to a life of crime, I don't coddle them and imagine that it's somehow not their fault.

I also wrote a pretty long (tl;dr?) post because I see your respective way of thinking as a pretty serious problem, albeit one which has a fair amount of mainstream support which is gaining steam. I don't agree with it whatsoever, I think the term "disease" is misapplied in speaking of addictive "disorders" (a slightly better term IMO), and I don't believe that addiction somehow transforms ordinary people into degenerate criminals. It does not. There is however, a lot of selection bias here—people who turn into addicts are more or less definitionally not "ordinary," as the ordinary person doesn't do drugs, or if he does, he doesn't become addicted. Whatever characteristics addicts share it does not remove their moral agency.

OT: perhaps one of my most serious sins is having sex with another woman while drunk and thus cheating on my significant other.

A pretty big sin, I'll agree, and one I've committed more than once, not always under the influence of alcohol and/or other drugs. But the influence did not diminish the sin; which is more or less what I've saying throughout, if we extend "influence" to a more literal sense of "the influence of drugs upon one's life;" the essential diagnostic characteristics clinically for addictive disorders usually revolve around this, or what might even be called one's "relationship" with one's drug of choice.
 
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^ in order not to derail the thread any more, it may be a good idea to start a separate thread, perhaps in P&S as you said; in any case, I'll keep my reply short.

I see where you're coming from with the first part of your reply, but I don't see the question as black and white as you think. Is somebody stealing from a rich entity, whom the theft doesn't affect much, in order to give it (and save) to a poor entity, whom it does affect positively a lot, amoral? Is it more or less amoral than somebody stealing from a poor entity in order to spend it all on heroin? Anyway, I agree that being a drug addict doesn't absolve one from the crimes they commit.

I'm not sure why you think my way of thinking is mainstream - I wish it was! I'm not denying addicts agency, I'm just saying that the current system catalyzes people turning to crime. If you start denying people food (or whatever else they're heavily dependent on, not just drugs), it won't be long until they start doing "amoral" things. Sure, you can say that they had it in them to start with, but most people have it in them to take from others in order to save themselves. That's not what it is about. It's about devising a system in which people don't have to resort to such actions.
 
for the record, I have a few more sins to confess from my childhood ... didn't really think of this but it wasn't just twice I stole drugs :|

Fioricet with codeine was a lot of fun when I was exploring medicine cabinets around 12-13. Also was a lot of T3s, Darvocet, or once Dalmane ... so OK I have to admit that when in another thread I never really stole drugs apart from a few times I need to add a few more times.
 
I see where you're coming from with the first part of your reply, but I don't see the question as black and white as you think. Is somebody stealing from a rich entity, whom the theft doesn't affect much, in order to give it (and save) to a poor entity, whom it does affect positively a lot, amoral? Is it more or less amoral than somebody stealing from a poor entity in order to spend it all on heroin?

For example, pharmacy robberies? I haven't been in that game for well over a decade. But it used to look like this: around closing time, three or four guys come in to the pharmacy, faces obscured, one flashes a gun, a note is passed that says something like "opiates, bars, v-cuts, adderall, dex, nothing else no bullshit 2 minutes safe to bag," invariably, of course, like bank employees, pharmacy employees are trained not to be stupid. Nobody doing this is Robin Hood, let's be honest. The pharmacy isn't affected that much, they have insurance, they deal with a mild pain in the ass (as do their customers) in terms of stock and insurance and shit although higher insurance premiums could put a small family run pharmacy out of business. A job like that is probably close to or exceeding five digits retail or a quarter of that or so wholesale.

Is that more or less OK than mugging some random guy on the street? Well, of course, it's more profitable. What about robbing a bank? It's a harder job but probably arguably less harmful (but less profitable than most people think.) Or stealing the meds from someone on medicaid/tricare, pretty low shit.

Stealing from family or friends, though, pretty much just is the lowest of the low. As I've confessed, I've done it, there's little I regret more, even if it's a lift of two twenty dollar bills versus a five figure haul from an armed robbery, the relationship is I think an essential part of why it's so severely wrong. No amount of addiction or craving really should motivate someone to steal from family. I'd have much more respect for someone who went out and committed other crimes, robbery, scams, whatever, than taking from their family.

Anyway, I agree that being a drug addict doesn't absolve one from the crimes they commit.

Well, we're agreed there.

I'm not sure why you think my way of thinking is mainstream - I wish it was! I'm not denying addicts agency, I'm just saying that the current system catalyzes people turning to crime. If you start denying people food (or whatever else they're heavily dependent on, not just drugs), it won't be long until they start doing "amoral" things. Sure, you can say that they had it in them to start with, but most people have it in them to take from others in order to save themselves. That's not what it is about. It's about devising a system in which people don't have to resort to such actions.

First of all, I do think the idea of lack of responsibility is pretty mainstream; the 1st of the 12 steps is something about 'powerlessess,' and we have drug courts that send people to rehab instead of jail, etc. (Personally, I'd rather jail.) There are a lot of concepts out there that do in fact deny addicts agency and figure them to be, well, powerless, over their addictions and therefore having the right to be treated differently than someone else who committed the same crime. I think that's wrong.

We aren't far from that system, at least here, although here in NYC, we're spoiled for choice, methadone and suboxone aren't hard to come by in a legitimate therapeutic/doctor–patient relationship/setting/clinic. 'tis a different matter. All of this stuff of course I think is important as is a bunch of other harm reduction and similar harm reduction/substitution/etc measures. I'm a suboxone patient myself, and I don' thave a lot of money given that I went pretty broke doing dope, and if neither suboxone or methadone were an option, I might give inpatient a detox a chance but I kinda doubt it would take and I wouldn't be surprised if I decided that what I ought to do is scope out the most vulnerable pharmacy in the neighborhood (there are tons of little independent ones) and hit it. Obviously the motivating factor here is my addiction, but I just don't agree with the idea that my addiction is any excuse. I could absolutely sit through a week of withdrawal or whatever, but I don't have to because I've got a bupe dr, and maybe that's just another aspect of our pussified society that I can't just quit on my own, but if I didn't have the option, and I chose to do (just to continue the example) robberies to support my habit, then I think there's no diminished culpability, there's no real place for discussion of society at large and so on and so forth, I've decided to do crime and am therefore a criminal.

I advocate a program of heroin maintenance as seen in the netherlands, etc. pretty far off heere
 
^ regarding the second part of your reply, I think you should re-read mine. Again, I'm not saying that addiction is an excuse, I'm saying that people are ready to do awful shit when they're desperate, and instead of having a system that promotes desperation, we need to be more clever.

My point is that the more desperate a situation the person is in (in terms of survival, or perceived survival), the less they're willing to care about the welfare of others. Every man for himself, as they say. And it is true for a large majority of human population, because after all we're nothing more than animals/cavemen, who roamed the Earth like all other animals not so long ago, who thanks to their advanced nervous system have been able to isolate themselves from the brutish reality of survival. So if desperate enough, pretty much anyone is willing to do things that are perceived as amoral. Thus I think that calling the person amoral for that is just useless, because then everyone would be amoral (or with the potential to be amoral). I think the term amoral should be reserved for people who commit atrocities just for the sake of it, not out of desperation. Again, you could argue that drug dependence is an excuse, but I beg to differ. It's just reality that drug dependence forces an organism to enter a different "mode of action", which (to me) strongly resembles desperation.

Also, telling a person that they're powerless, like the 12-step approach (which I dislike quite strongly), is very wrong in my opinion. The whole approach IMO is quite outdated and definitely not very efficient. For starters, there's no reason to demand total abstinence when much better options (BMT/MMT) are available.
 
^ Bullshit.

"Addiction is not a moral failure," people say. Maybe in some abstract biological sense.

The vast majority of addicts are, however, moral failures, as are most of the posters in this thread or most likely all of Bluelight.

That's why we need to change. That's why we need Christ. That's why we need whatever we need to get of this fucked up cycle.

Maybe I am a moral failure but I feel like I'm better off without your judgements.
 
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^ Bullshit.

"Addiction is not a moral failure," people say. Maybe in some abstract biological sense.

The vast majority of addicts are, however, moral failures, as are most of the posters in this thread or most likely all of Bluelight.

That's why we need to change. That's why we need Christ. That's why we need whatever we need to get of this fucked up cycle.

All of humanity is a moral fail. Relax.
 
All of humanity is a moral fail. Relax.

Doubtless; this is both the Christian and the common-sensical answer, the only objection I have is to the idea that morally-failing behaviors by addicts related to their addictions is something other than moral failures, i.e. symptoms of a soi disant disease, etc.
 
We allz need Jeebus!!! Seriously tho, god's all good but what's your deal SKL? You seem really judgemental since from when I first knew you. Isn't one of the things in the bible something about not judging people? Maybe you should look into that part. Everyone finds their own way in recovery if they so choose it. Step off your fuckin soapbox already.
 
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I think SKL is judging himself more than anyone. Not that he isnt judging others too but pretty sure he believes he is being judged, and combine that with my first statement, he has every right to judge anyone.

With that, Im erasing this thread from my memory for personal reasons.
 
The vast majority of addicts are, however, moral failures, as are most of the posters in this thread or most likely all of Bluelight.

Forget the god or Jeebus part... If that doesn't scream pompous judgemental asshole then I don't know what does. Why even be a moderator in a place you think so lowly of?
 
A lot of hostility in this thread, don't think anyone benefits from it. Not that I don't think SKL goes too far in his opinion about drug addicts, but I think we can discuss and debate on the subject without resorting to personal attacks.
 
I've done my fair share of morally questionable things because of alcohol and drugs, including stealing pills or booze, asking money from relatives with some excuse and using it for substances, and so on. Lately I've been totally sober for periods of many months between relapses, currently no intoxicants since March 3rd. This is probably longer than most Bluelighters have been sober since their puberty years, but I'm not saying I have any moral edge over you others.

SKL's comment would look a lot less harsh if he said that an addict "needs some kind of radical worldview change", without claiming that it always has to involve Jesus/Christianity.
 
Holy shit, I feel like SKL has been bottling this up the entire time and is now confessing to the church of Gnostic Bishop.

An emotional thread...
 
A lot of people aren't getting what I'm saying here and I think my mention of religion and religious terms like "sin" sets off an automatic reaction in a lot of people.

I think SKL is judging himself more than anyone. Not that he isnt judging others too but pretty sure he believes he is being judged, and combine that with my first statement, he has every right to judge anyone.

Sort of, on track, but not quite; I don't feel qualified to judge any individual for any sins they've committed, that may not have been made sufficiently clear. On the other hand I am strongly opposed to a philosophy which holds that addicts, or in fact anyone else, gets to blame their faults on various other things; stealing a loaf of bread to feed your family of course is one thing, stealing whatever else to avoid the unpleasantness of withdrawal is quite another.

Why even be a moderator in a place you think so lowly of?

Most Bluelighters are drug addicts.
Most drug addicts are moral failures (meaning, that we have failed morally; so too, by the way, has everyone else, but here I'm talking in a more specific sense)
Thus one reasonably expect many if not most of us are moral failures.

Furthermore,
I am a drug addict.
I am a moral failure.
I am a Bluelighter.
I care for this community
I chose to become a moderator.

Q.E.D.

SKL's comment would look a lot less harsh if he said that an addict "needs some kind of radical worldview change", without claiming that it always has to involve Jesus/Christianity.

Probably so.
 
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