Bupe What exactly is the Bupe "honeymoon period"?

[Man67]

I heard the phrase from the title several times on different forums. Always related to Bupe. Nobody explained it in details, but as far as I could understand at some point Subs start working against you. And all positive effects turn to negative. Apparently you got a serious withdrawal symptoms, despite the fact that you are still taking your regular dose. Is it a myth or a fact I don't know. But if anybody had such a bad experience, please share. Thank you.

 

[cdin]

it isn't exclusive to bupe. any time you get a steady supply of a sufficiently potent opioid and are able to maintain it, shit seems great. That will last a few functional months until receptor downregulation starts, at which point you can either 1) escalate the dose to attain the same level of everything feeling good and normal or 2) start undergoing inter-dose withdrawals. Generally, the point where you have to start dealing with this is where opioids stop being a fun superpower of feeling perfect all the time and starts being a job that you pay. that is when, as they say, the honeymoon is fuckin over.

 

[Pawaini]

I can relate meth honey moon it’s extremely nice but extremely short, on the way to feel that rush again, you seriously can lose your mind into a serie of psychosis events, if survived and keeps your sanity, only uses to feel normal and keep functioning and not falling sleep at work. Not even a half ounce rise your heart beat over the normal.

 

[Nas47]

Never had some honeymoon period with bupe.Probably 'cause i am on transdermal.

 

[Man67]

it isn't exclusive to bupe. any time you get a steady supply of a sufficiently potent opioid and are able to maintain it, shit seems great. That will last a few functional months until receptor downregulation starts, at which point you can either 1) escalate the dose to attain the same level of everything feeling good and normal or 2) start undergoing inter-dose withdrawals. Generally, the point where you have to start dealing with this is where opioids stop being a fun superpower of feeling perfect all the time and starts being a job that you pay. that is when, as they say, the honeymoon is fuckin over.

Thanks for the info mate. I suppose that doesn't affect everyone, as I had a conversation with some people who are 10-15 years on bupe. Is there anything that one can do to avoid such a symptoms? Personally, I don't feel anything after taking my 8mg in the morning and nice little buzz from the beginning is gone. But I am still in much better shape than before getting on Subs. No chronic pain and no depression. I can only hope that it will stay this way for a few more years.

 

[Man67]

I can relate meth honey moon it’s extremely nice but extremely short, on the way to feel that rush again, you seriously can lose your mind into a serie of psychosis events, if survived and keeps your sanity, only uses to feel normal and keep functioning and not falling sleep at work. Not even a half ounce rise your heart beat over the normal.

Every drug is different and also had similar experience with oxy. At the end I was taking it just to avoid withdrawal symptoms. As far as I realised so far, Bupe is a bit different from other drugs (if you are not abusing it). There is no such a thing as getting "high" but it's working in some other way. When in doubt, I always remember how I felt before getting on Subs.

 

[Man67]

Never had some honeymoon period with bupe.Probably 'cause i am on transdermal.

You didn't miss much. There is a very mild euphoric feeling at the beginning, which dissappear after several weeks. After that you feel absolutely nothing. But as far as you don't have any cravings for opioids and don't feel clinically depressed, it means that it's still working. Every new day it's a miracle to me.

 

[cdin]

Thanks for the info mate. I suppose that doesn't affect everyone, as I had a conversation with some people who are 10-15 years on bupe. Is there anything that one can do to avoid such a symptoms? Personally, I don't feel anything after taking my 8mg in the morning and nice little buzz from the beginning is gone. But I am still in much better shape than before getting on Subs. No chronic pain and no depression. I can only hope that it will stay this way for a few more years.

... chronic activation of receptor sites results in chronic downregulation. full stop. there's no way around it. It may function for several years and have you "ok" but not high... but eventually it will hit a point requiring upping dose or feelin like shit. ive seen it with kratom, oxy, heroin, bupe, methadone. afaik it's just part of the game. Personally, knowing what I know about the WDs of buprenorphine, I would never allow myself to be put on it. Some of the worst / most long term opioid wds i have seen are from suboxone no question. especially from a high dose.

 

[BilboBaggins2]

I can't find an answer to this Bupe question anywhere so I thought I'd ask here. I just started Bupe pills (Subutex) on Friday to get off oxycodone, today is Tuesday so it's been 4 days. Induction was perfect and I felt great almost immediately. 8MG doses every 24 hours. The question is this: How long can I take this before I'm physically dependent on Bupe? My plan is to just stop after today, but if it's like the past few days I'll start sweating and getting some withrawal (which I assume is still from the oxy) right at 24 hours since the last Bupe pill.

I don't want to go any longer than 5 or 6 days because I don't want the withdrawals that some on here have suffered through. Appreciate anyone's opinions on this. If it were up to my doc I'd take this the rest of my life -- he doesn't really care.

 

[Nas47]

On bupr from only 9months...so not big experience.Could be from oxy or bupevthis withdrawl.idk....soon someone else will put info about your question.

 

[cdin]

I can't find an answer to this Bupe question anywhere so I thought I'd ask here. I just started Bupe pills (Subutex) on Friday to get off oxycodone, today is Tuesday so it's been 4 days. Induction was perfect and I felt great almost immediately. 8MG doses every 24 hours. The question is this: How long can I take this before I'm physically dependent on Bupe? My plan is to just stop after today, but if it's like the past few days I'll start sweating and getting some withrawal (which I assume is still from the oxy) right at 24 hours since the last Bupe pill.

I don't want to go any longer than 5 or 6 days because I don't want the withdrawals that some on here have suffered through. Appreciate anyone's opinions on this. If it were up to my doc I'd take this the rest of my life -- he doesn't really care.

that answe is gonna vary person to person, but imo, if it were me i would use it only for a 7-10 day rapid taper, and be taking less every time i took it. ymmv

 

[Man67]

... chronic activation of receptor sites results in chronic downregulation. full stop. there's no way around it. It may function for several years and have you "ok" but not high... but eventually it will hit a point requiring upping dose or feelin like shit. ive seen it with kratom, oxy, heroin, bupe, methadone. afaik it's just part of the game. Personally, knowing what I know about the WDs of buprenorphine, I would never allow myself to be put on it. Some of the worst / most long term opioid wds i have seen are from suboxone no question. especially from a high dose.

It's all true. Unfortunately sometimes is the hardest way, the only way. I personally asked my Dr. to put me on Suboxone because my depression was so bad, that I definitely decided to end my life. At the time I was on 2 different antidepressants (Lexapro and Endep, max. dose). This is not some pathetic try to be a "victim". This is a fact.

I had more than enough Amitriptyline (a few hundreds pills) and already wrote a letter to my kids. That was my last try to find something that will end my misery. As you can see, several months later I am still here, thanks to Suboxone. People often use the phrase "It saved my life". In my case that literally happened.

I can't think about the future and possible side effects. I am grateful for every new day, especially for waking up in the morning without suic**** thoughts. I get a general idea what are you talking about, because I had same experience with Oxy. After more than 10 years of abusing it it became my biggest enemy. To cut the long story short, you are absolutely right. But... There are some things in life that we can't control. I don't want to think about future because I can't change it. I am just trying to live my life in peace, on a borrowed time.

 

[plumbus-nine]

I think it's wrong to say that after the initial 'honeymoon period' (this wording is used for many drugs like meth as well, not just bupe) one will rush into withdrawal despite using the same dose as always. But the euphoria goes away and one could reach a state of complete tolerance where the drug does nothing but keep withdrawal away. This can unfortunately even become dysphoric and depressive as I experienced it on morphine after a few weeks of months, that even increasing the dose would just give a few days of a bit of euphoria and then same as before. But it's not withdrawal. I withdrew voluntarily because side effects overweighed after some time. I can't stress enough how NMDAr antagonists like memantine help you over withdrawal but that's another topic.

@Man67 if bupe works for you past the initial opioidish euphoria then chances are that it will work for longer as its antidepressant effects are mediated by a different activity (kappa blockade) and bupe is effective as an AD even with mi blocked, they have a combination of bupe and a mu blocker in approval.

 

[BilboBaggins2]

It's all true. Unfortunately sometimes is the hardest way, the only way. I personally asked my Dr. to put me on Suboxone because my depression was so bad, that I definitely decided to end my life. At the time I was on 2 different antidepressants (Lexapro and Endep, max. dose). This is not some pathetic try to be a "victim". This is a fact.

I had more than enough Amitriptyline (a few hundreds pills) and already wrote a letter to my kids. That was my last try to find something that will end my misery. As you can see, several months later I am still here, thanks to Suboxone. People often use the phrase "It saved my life". In my case that literally happened.

I can't think about the future and possible side effects. I am grateful for every new day, especially for waking up in the morning without suic**** thoughts. I get a general idea what are you talking about, because I had same experience with Oxy. After more than 10 years of abusing it it became my biggest enemy. To cut the long story short, you are absolutely right. But... There are some things in life that we can't control. I don't want to think about future because I can't change it. I am just trying to live my life in peace, on a borrowed time.

I've read that Bupe is a miracle drug for TRD. So glad to hear it has been a Godsend for you. I wouldn't worry about future side effects either -- just use it as a tool that you may be taking for the rest of your life just like many others are taking medications from here on out. I've read a number of major success stories from bupe being used for depression, but unfortunately it's still only a very last resort that seldom gets used. It seems anyone who has severe depression is better off getting a drug habit to go along with it so bupe can be used as treatment. I sure hope that changes because the Lexapros and other SSRIs of the world almost seem like a placebo considering they take 6 weeks to work and even then there is a good chance they won't. Why on earth can't medications like bupe and ketamine be used a little earlier in the treatment process? It seems ridiculous to me that the ineffective drugs are first line and the ones that show dramatic results practically require an Act of Congress to use. In any event, I didn't mean to hijack the thread I'm just happy you've been able to get relief.

 

[BilboBaggins2]

that answe is gonna vary person to person, but imo, if it were me i would use it only for a 7-10 day rapid taper, and be taking less every time i took it. ymmv

Thank you. I think that's a very smart suggestion. Hopefully 7-10 days isn't going to throw me into severe longterm withdrawal.

 

[plumbus-nine]

because the Lexapros and other SSRIs of the world almost seem like a placebo considering they take 6 weeks to work and even then there is a good chance they won't.

SSRIs are actually not much better as placebo is in some papers. They cause side effects leading to an active placebo in many cases. I've been on SNRI for many years, most of my adult life, recently and finally stopped them and know what? It's all the same plus some PAWS symptoms like sexual dysfunction but these pills and docs fooled me all the years into me believing to require them because cold turkey from short acting SSRIs is brutal.

Why on earth can't medications like bupe and ketamine be used a little earlier in the treatment process?

Because they can get you high and are thus evil. Also the way how drugs are approved, Keta or bupe will never made it into first line treatments as long as SSRIs are around because they seem favorable to the responsible guys. And make shit loads of $$$ for big pharma. Fuck, I can't even get a script for lisdexamph when I have legitimate ADHD, all they offer me is bupropion, another shitty drug out there.

 

[Man67]

I've read that Bupe is a miracle drug for TRD. So glad to hear it has been a Godsend for you. I wouldn't worry about future side effects either -- just use it as a tool that you may be taking for the rest of your life just like many others are taking medications from here on out. I've read a number of major success stories from bupe being used for depression, but unfortunately it's still only a very last resort that seldom gets used. It seems anyone who has severe depression is better off getting a drug habit to go along with it so bupe can be used as treatment. I sure hope that changes because the Lexapros and other SSRIs of the world almost seem like a placebo considering they take 6 weeks to work and even then there is a good chance they won't. Why on earth can't medications like bupe and ketamine be used a little earlier in the treatment process? It seems ridiculous to me that the ineffective drugs are first line and the ones that show dramatic results practically require an Act of Congress to use. In any event, I didn't mean to hijack the thread I'm just happy you've been able to get relief.

I ask myself exactly the same question. The only answer that comes to mind is "because of money". Just check how many different antidepressants is out there and how many people are taking them? If they make something successful that can replace all the useless pills, they will be loosing money.

It's obvious (from people's experience) that opioids can help tremendously with the depression. Most people start using just for that reason. Because they are unhappy. There must be the way to make a good antidepressant based on opioids with the minimal side effects. But, what would happen with the hundreds of other brands?

They recently made something similar that is almost perfect. Nasal spray with ketamine. It's called Spravado (esketamine) but it's not for us ordinary people. In Australia cost varies according to the dose and treatment schedule, and could be between $1000 and $1800 per week. I can't afford that.

 

[Man67]

I think it's wrong to say that after the initial 'honeymoon period' (this wording is used for many drugs like meth as well, not just bupe) one will rush into withdrawal despite using the same dose as always. But the euphoria goes away and one could reach a state of complete tolerance where the drug does nothing but keep withdrawal away. This can unfortunately even become dysphoric and depressive as I experienced it on morphine after a few weeks of months, that even increasing the dose would just give a few days of a bit of euphoria and then same as before. But it's not withdrawal. I withdrew voluntarily because side effects overweighed after some time. I can't stress enough how NMDAr antagonists like memantine help you over withdrawal but that's another topic.

@Man67 if bupe works for you past the initial opioidish euphoria then chances are that it will work for longer as its antidepressant effects are mediated by a different activity (kappa blockade) and bupe is effective as an AD even with mi blocked, they have a combination of bupe and a mu blocker in approval.

Great analysis. Thanks a lot mate for your encouraging words.

 

[Nucynta_80]

It's all true. Unfortunately sometimes is the hardest way, the only way. I personally asked my Dr. to put me on Suboxone because my depression was so bad, that I definitely decided to end my life. At the time I was on 2 different antidepressants (Lexapro and Endep, max. dose). This is not some pathetic try to be a "victim". This is a fact.

I had more than enough Amitriptyline (a few hundreds pills) and already wrote a letter to my kids. That was my last try to find something that will end my misery. As you can see, several months later I am still here, thanks to Suboxone. People often use the phrase "It saved my life". In my case that literally happened.

I can't think about the future and possible side effects. I am grateful for every new day, especially for waking up in the morning without suic**** thoughts. I get a general idea what are you talking about, because I had same experience with Oxy. After more than 10 years of abusing it it became my biggest enemy. To cut the long story short, you are absolutely right. But... There are some things in life that we can't control. I don't want to think about future because I can't change it. I am just trying to live my life in peace, on a borrowed time.

Bupe is only a partial Opioid agonist (Mu-Morphine receptor), but it’s a full K-Kappa Receptor antagonist! I think that second part is crucial, because K-receptor agonism causes Dysphoria. In fact, recent studies show that Serotonin deficiency is only partially responsible for severe depression. It’s just one block, but there are several other systems that effect it, to include the Endogenous Cannaboid System and Endogenous Opioid System, in particular dynorphines that agonize the K-Receptor. By antagonizing the K-Receptors, it limits dynorphin binding, thus helping with depression in a completely different manner than SSRIs or SNRIs.

Low-dose Bupe is off-label prescribed for treatment resistant depression, but it’s in trials where low-dose Bupe is combined with another drug and it’s supposed to be great for depression.

 

[BilboBaggins2]

I've now been on Bupe for 6 days, did 12 Mg the first day and 8 Mg since. Hoping tomorrow not to take any -- since it's only been 6 days hopefully that won't cause withdrawal.

I will say the last few days I've gotten a tremendous buzz each time I've taken 8 MG. I've taken Bupe twice before and have never gotten a buzz I am this time around. Kind of a pleasant surprise.