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Alcohol Was this Klonopin or Alcohol WD? Would taking Klonopin EARLIER have prevented it? Do I need to quit drinking?

The only thing that would cause a glutamate surge Is a substance that would induce excess glutamate release. Or technically if gaba receptor function was inhibited that can lead to an increase in glutamate receptor action but not necessarily glutamate release.

An increase in glutamate receptor activity is probably the more appropriate term than glutamate surge, because it covers the case of increased glutamate release, and increased action caused by a decrease in inhibition by GABA receptors.

Ketamine is one such drug that has been proven in humans to increase glutamate-glutamine cycling which means more increased glutamate release than conversion back to glutamine.

As far as any feelings of anxiety the day after using GABAergic drugs That's more like not being able to wear glasses that help your eyesight. Think of the drug as the glasses and your GABA receptors as your eyes. They work all right but when you wear the glasses you can see a lot better and when you take them off you can't see as well. In fact, when you first take them off, they look really really blurry, and then they kind of go back to what you're used to.
 
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(Some)GHB receptors are simply a specialized subset of GABA A receptors:

α4βδ GABAA receptors are high-affinity targets for γ-hydroxybutyric acid (GHB)​


Phenibut is a non-selective agonist of gaba, A receptors. Therefore it effects the same GABA receptors that GHB does.

Now if you're talking about the GHB receptor that is referred to as GPR172A, I don't have any data regarding that.

The paper describing GHB's affinity for alpha 4 subunit extra synaptic gaba receptors is often overlooked.

Of note is that gabapentin agonizes and also increases surface receptor expression in extra synaptic gaba receptors, but not presynaptic receptors.
That paper says that that baclofen doesn't bind those receptors. Do you have a source for phenibut being a non-selective GABA agonist? I've always heard it hits GABA-B and VDCCs.


@Mycophile

You are a bit off with the GABA and glutamate thing, but the devil is in the details. GABA and glutamate are the two main fast (ion channel mediated) neurotransmitters. Glutamate causes cells to open sodium ion (positively charged) channels that raise their voltage (the total amount of charged ions in a cell), and cause an action potential, and GABA causes cells to open chloride channels that increase the negative charge in a cell. This increases rhe amount of glutamate signal needed to cause an action potential. (I am not talking about metabotropic GABA/glutamate receptors here)

The anxiety felt from a hangover wouldn't be from depletion of either neurotransmitter, but increased glutamate tone, and decreased GABA tone.

G-protein coupled receptors like serotonin, norepinephrine, and dopamine receptors, rather than changing the voltage in a cell (which is rare, and requires coupling to an ion channel, like mu opioid receptors), cause changes in second messangers in the cell that alters how a cell will respond to ion channel receptors, like turning a volume knob on a stereo.
 
That paper says that that baclofen doesn't bind those receptors. Do you have a source for phenibut being a non-selective GABA agonist? I've always heard it hits GABA-B and VDCCs.
"This research compared the effects of two inhibitory mediators of gamma-aminobutyric acid (GABA): 1) phenibut, a nonselective agonist of ionotropic GABA(A) and metabotropic GABA(B) receptors "


"It acts as a GABA‐mimetic, primarily at GABAB and, to some extent, at GABAA receptors."


The first is behind a paywall.

The second is fully readable.
 
The anxiety felt from a hangover wouldn't be from depletion of either neurotransmitter, but increased glutamate tone, and decreased GABA tone.

It's interesting that NSAIDS reverse phosphorylation at the NMDA receptor and it's been shown that they prevent the massive influx of Ca+ that causes extreme cyto toxicity and cellular death.


It's interesting to also note that NSAIDS are identified as antidepressant and anxiolytic and their anti-inflammatory capability was mainly identified for that. However, I think it might be because it lowers the level of activation of the NMDA receptors.

Lots of people swear by taking a long acting NSAID like naproxen that as long as they were hydrated, they don't get hangover symptoms.

Perhaps The basis for that is it's ability to reverse the phosphorylation of the NMDA receptor at least partially.
 
"This research compared the effects of two inhibitory mediators of gamma-aminobutyric acid (GABA): 1) phenibut, a nonselective agonist of ionotropic GABA(A) and metabotropic GABA(B) receptors "


"It acts as a GABA‐mimetic, primarily at GABAB and, to some extent, at GABAA receptors."


The first is behind a paywall.

The second is fully readable.
Neither paper has primary data for phenibut GABA-A activity. Both say it's primarily a GABA-B agonist, and the second paper says that phenibut is not reversed by bicuculline, a GABA-A antagonist.

Only reference 50 from the second paper mentions GABA-A activity, and I can't find it anywhere (even on sci-hub). It is an old Russian study from 1984, and if nobody has replicated the data in the past 40 years, I don't really think it has much credence.

In general, I want to see primary data to believe a statement in a paper. If I can't track down a reference that has data for a statement, I don't believe it.

Also that NSAID paper seems to be talking about excitotoxicity in the context of beta amyloid overload, and they propose that nsaids have mitochondrial uncoupling effects that change its signaling (and I have seen evidence for very high dose aspirin being an uncoupler). I didn't seem to find any direct mention of NSAIDs affecting NMDA receptor phosphorylation in that paper.
 
Neither paper has primary data for phenibut GABA-A activity. Both say it's primarily a GABA-B agonist, and the second paper says that phenibut is not reversed by bicuculline, a GABA-A antagonist.

Only reference 50 from the second paper mentions GABA-A activity, and I can't find it anywhere (even on sci-hub). It is an old Russian study from 1984, and if nobody has replicated the data in the past 40 years, I don't really think it has much credence.

In general, I want to see primary data to believe a statement in a paper. If I can't track down a reference that has data for a statement, I don't believe it.

Also that NSAID paper seems to be talking about excitotoxicity in the context of beta amyloid overload, and they propose that nsaids have mitochondrial uncoupling effects that change its signaling (and I have seen evidence for very high dose aspirin being an uncoupler). I didn't seem to find any direct mention of NSAIDs affecting NMDA receptor phosphorylation in that paper.
I'll dig them up
 
Thanks for all this information guys (even though it's hard to understand.)

But I'd still kind of like answers to just 3 main questions (at least your opinions):

1) does it sound alcohol was the primary cause of these episodes, and do I have to completely quit getting drunk, in your opinions, in order for this to NOT happen again?

You both seem to think that several of the substances played a role, but do you guys think that if I drink again (yes, while on my Klonopin, since skipping doses isn't great) but I skip the kratom and weed the next day (and the Phenibut) that it is likely to happen again? Because some people have made me think this could have to do with kindling, and therefore, could be likely to happen again. I really don't want to quit drinking.

2) I fell asleep and woke up fine after the first episode even though I didn't take my 2nd dose of Klonopin, but does it actually sound likely that I could have died from this 2nd episode where my temperature dropped had I not had access to my Klonopin, or do you think that eventually the shivering and shaking would have passed on its own? And also, would I have been likely to have a fatal seizure even before I could reach for my Klonopin? I am scared to ask these questions, but I feel like I still need to hear the answers.

Of course, neither of you (or probably anyone else) can really know if I was at death's door, but you can take semi-educated guesses. I can tell you guys that I was pretty scared. But if you don't want to venture a guess then I would understand, seeing as it's a pretty bold question.

3) Do you guys think that if I had taken my 2nd dose of Klonopin several hours earlier before these episodes happened that it could likely have prevented them? Afterall, it stopped the 2nd episode, so couldn't it be used to prevent them in the future?
 
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okay, I’ve read through most of the responses of this fascinating thread and love all the different perspectives. i’m not a doctor, but here is my perspective.
1-all the drugs you have taken strongly affect the glutamate system, even if indirectly. even cannabis acutely inhibits the NMDA Receptors as a result of activation of CB1 receptors. all GABAA agonist drugs and GABA it’s self actually work by making neurons much less sensitive to glutamate and this is how they produce their pleasant memory impairing and sedative effects. therefore, withdrawal from these drugs, results in the complete opposite, hypersensitivity to glutamate which explains seizures/delirium, in extreme cases. luckily, Klonopin is a very long acting potent benzodiazepine, so you’re very unlikely to face lethal or even harmful withdrawal complications. I think the glutamate surge hypothesis is a strong and rational one. basically, it looks like all the drugs you have been using have cumulatively made your brain more sensitive to glutamate.

2- Should have put this one first, but you are very very unlikely to die even as an indirect result of any withdrawal. your Klonopin should be more than enough to keep you safe from a seizure which I doubt you had anyway.

3- Kratom contains a huge range of alkaloids with diverse biological activities, so I could see how it could cause hyponatraemia, especially if they have a diuretic effect like caffeine/coffee does. The thing is, it would be very difficult to cause this in a normal person unless they strictly avoided all salt containing foods or in the context of extreme kidney damage or other illnesses. it wouldn’t be a bad idea to snack on a few salty foods or occasionally add a bit of extra salt to your diet. however, I think the best thing you can do is go to your doctor and ask them to do bloodwork. unless you’ve been explicitly prohibited from drinking, tell him what happened in the context of your alcohol use and the symptoms you got, without mentioning the other drugs you used. that way, they could check you for nutritional deficiencies which are more common when multiple drugs are used together.

4-I would advise you to avoid alcohol in the near future, at least for a few months to give your body time to recover. in regards to getting off Klonopin, that would be a great achievement. apparently, low-dose flumazenil,(powerful, benzodiazepine, antagonist) can make this process easier by resetting the sensitivity of GABAA receptors. This should be something you can speak to your doctor about.

5-because neurotransmitters are intimately linked with each other, the role of Norepinephrine is also important. pretty much all the drugs you were using indirectly decrease noradrenergic activity which helps produce the depressant effects. of course, with withdrawal the opposite happens. interestingly, Norepinephrine. can trigger the insertion of New calcium permeable AMPA glutamate receptors into the neuron membrane as well as triggering their phosphorylation. this makes a neuron much more sensitive to glutamate. this could play a role in your extreme sensitivity to temperature and high anxiety levels.

6-now we’re getting into the realm of experimental suggestions but it might be of interest to you. basically, neurosteroids are endogenously produced compounds which are metabolites of sex hormones. some of them are extremely powerful agonist/modulators of the GABAA receptors, but they act on unique sites and subunits. apparently, they’re excellent candidates for addiction, epilepsy, neuroprotection, psychiatric disorders amongst many others. One of them, alaprednanalone is available as an experimental treatment for major depression and is thought to work by rebalancing/resetting the brain. i’m not sure if you have any depressive symptoms, but if you manage to get off Klonopin I wonder if applying for such a treatment could help reset your brain networks to normal, reversing the changes caused by years of GABAergic substance use. i’ve been thinking a bit about the kindling process I mentioned to you previously, and I think that could explain some of your symptoms. however, I don’t think it’s endangering you at the moment and it’s usually only a problem in chronic very high-dose alcohol or drug users who go through repeated cycles of withdrawal and use.

I wish you all the best. My strongest advice would be too limit the number of drugs you use, both medical and recreational, start by cutting out those you feel you need/benefit from least. take care of your nutrition and sleep as these are also really important. also, try your best to remain calm at all times. Whilst I don’t believe your experiences were largely psychosomatic, it’s very likely a small psychosomatic component was involved with the possible culprit being heightened noradrenergic activity.
 
okay, I’ve read through most of the responses of this fascinating thread and love all the different perspectives. i’m not a doctor, but here is my perspective.
1-all the drugs you have taken strongly affect the glutamate system, even if indirectly. even cannabis acutely inhibits the NMDA Receptors as a result of activation of CB1 receptors. all GABAA agonist drugs and GABA it’s self actually work by making neurons much less sensitive to glutamate and this is how they produce their pleasant memory impairing and sedative effects. therefore, withdrawal from these drugs, results in the complete opposite, hypersensitivity to glutamate which explains seizures/delirium, in extreme cases. luckily, Klonopin is a very long acting potent benzodiazepine, so you’re very unlikely to face lethal or even harmful withdrawal complications. I think the glutamate surge hypothesis is a strong and rational one. basically, it looks like all the drugs you have been using have cumulatively made your brain more sensitive to glutamate.

2- Should have put this one first, but you are very very unlikely to die even as an indirect result of any withdrawal. your Klonopin should be more than enough to keep you safe from a seizure which I doubt you had anyway.

3- Kratom contains a huge range of alkaloids with diverse biological activities, so I could see how it could cause hyponatraemia, especially if they have a diuretic effect like caffeine/coffee does. The thing is, it would be very difficult to cause this in a normal person unless they strictly avoided all salt containing foods or in the context of extreme kidney damage or other illnesses. it wouldn’t be a bad idea to snack on a few salty foods or occasionally add a bit of extra salt to your diet. however, I think the best thing you can do is go to your doctor and ask them to do bloodwork. unless you’ve been explicitly prohibited from drinking, tell him what happened in the context of your alcohol use and the symptoms you got, without mentioning the other drugs you used. that way, they could check you for nutritional deficiencies which are more common when multiple drugs are used together.

4-I would advise you to avoid alcohol in the near future, at least for a few months to give your body time to recover. in regards to getting off Klonopin, that would be a great achievement. apparently, low-dose flumazenil,(powerful, benzodiazepine, antagonist) can make this process easier by resetting the sensitivity of GABAA receptors. This should be something you can speak to your doctor about.

5-because neurotransmitters are intimately linked with each other, the role of Norepinephrine is also important. pretty much all the drugs you were using indirectly decrease noradrenergic activity which helps produce the depressant effects. of course, with withdrawal the opposite happens. interestingly, Norepinephrine. can trigger the insertion of New calcium permeable AMPA glutamate receptors into the neuron membrane as well as triggering their phosphorylation. this makes a neuron much more sensitive to glutamate. this could play a role in your extreme sensitivity to temperature and high anxiety levels.

6-now we’re getting into the realm of experimental suggestions but it might be of interest to you. basically, neurosteroids are endogenously produced compounds which are metabolites of sex hormones. some of them are extremely powerful agonist/modulators of the GABAA receptors, but they act on unique sites and subunits. apparently, they’re excellent candidates for addiction, epilepsy, neuroprotection, psychiatric disorders amongst many others. One of them, alaprednanalone is available as an experimental treatment for major depression and is thought to work by rebalancing/resetting the brain. i’m not sure if you have any depressive symptoms, but if you manage to get off Klonopin I wonder if applying for such a treatment could help reset your brain networks to normal, reversing the changes caused by years of GABAergic substance use. i’ve been thinking a bit about the kindling process I mentioned to you previously, and I think that could explain some of your symptoms. however, I don’t think it’s endangering you at the moment and it’s usually only a problem in chronic very high-dose alcohol or drug users who go through repeated cycles of withdrawal and use.

I wish you all the best. My strongest advice would be too limit the number of drugs you use, both medical and recreational, start by cutting out those you feel you need/benefit from least. take care of your nutrition and sleep as these are also really important. also, try your best to remain calm at all times. Whilst I don’t believe your experiences were largely psychosomatic, it’s very likely a small psychosomatic component was involved with the possible culprit being heightened noradrenergic activity.

Thanks a lot for replying. Even though we are all just guessing, I think the hypothesis that glutamate was somehow involved is sound. I don't think I feel like I could talk to my doctor about it and feel safe. I'll PM you.
 
it seems to be that combining many drugs together, especially when that combination involves Kratom, strange, anxiety and movement related effects are common. here is a link to a thread with a similar example, but this time the main two drugs involved are Kratom and the antioxidant NAC


 
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