Alcohol Was this Klonopin or Alcohol WD? Would taking Klonopin EARLIER have prevented it? Do I need to quit drinking?

[Mycophile]

Ok, so there's some necessary context to this thread. The necessary context is:

1) I'm slowly weaning off Klonopin. I've been on it 20 years, along w/ Prozac. I now take 0.5mg in the morning and 0.5mg at night.

2) The episode I'm going to describe came one week after a similar episode I'd described in another thread. In that episode, there was a night were I'd taken Phenibut (while on my Klonopin of course), Kratom (probably unimportant?) and drank a lot the night before. The next day I had a really bad hangover and had taken my first dose of Klonopin but not my 2nd. Then around the time I should have taken my 2nd dose I forgot, and while smoking weed (I later heard that weed increases glutamate?)I got what necrogesic called "gluatamate surge w/ akithisia." I was suddenly uncomfortable in my own body and felt dissociation and was cold and shivering. I got in bed and my feet started shaking uncontrollably and I fell asleep. I felt fine the next day.

Now, with that context, the following weekend I decided "screw the phenibut, but I'm still gonna get drunk cause I want to see if that will happen again." Stupid, but I hoped that it wouldn't...

Everything was the same minus phenibut. I got really drunk on my klonopin, and some kratom. Next day I took kratom and smoked some weed, and while high i started worrying about if the glutamate surge would happen again, and it did. I had, once again, only taken my first dose of Klonopin but forgot to take the night time dose and it would have been wearing off at that time.

I felt the same akisthisia where I was afraid to be in my own body, but it passed more quickly than the last time. It switched very quickly to feeling REALLY cold even though it wasn't cold, and I got in bed and was shaking and shivering really badly, particularly my legs and lower body.

However, this time I went straight for my Klonopin since necrogesic said that when this happened to him that etizolam helped. i figured they are both benzos so it should work, and it did. I was shaking and shivering in my bed for 30-40 mins till the Klonopin kicked in, then it completely stopped and I fell asleep and felt totally fine the next day.

To me, that sounds a lot like delirium tremens, only I don't drink on a regular basis. I do drink a lot when I drink though. I have not drank since. It really freaked me out cause I thought I might die, and also, I am worried I'll never be able to drink again, but that is the lesser concern than my health.

I thought I could prove that the Phenibut was the only cause, but unfortunately it wasn't.

What I want to understand is:

1) Exactly what happened this 2nd time and why did this happen 2 weeks in a row? Why did it happen even without Phenibut?

2) Exactly how bad is what happened? Could i have died had I not had Klonopin? Or, considering that I DO have a huge supply of Klonopin, would i be safe if this happened again? Could a fatal seizure have occurred BEFORE I had a chance to get to my Klonopin?

3) If I had taken my Klonopin earlier, would it have prevented it?

4) Do I have to quit drinking forever? Should I just stop for a while?


I know that's a lot, but here's a theory I was wondering about: since I don't understand how it could have been alcohol withdrawal since I don't drink enough, and since Phenibut wasn't present in my system the 2nd time, and since both times I had not yet taken my 2nd dose of Klonopin: could this somehow have been Klonopin withdrawal that was induced by alcohol since both are GABA drugs, and, if I had taken that 2nd night time dose of klonopin earlier, with maybe a little extra, would it have prevented that stuff from happening in the first place? Afterall, the Klonopin stopped the 2nd episode once it kicked in, so wouldn't that logically mean that taking it earlier could have prevented it?

I have heard people say that when tapering off Klonopin you should not drink, but i really thought that advice was mostly for people who were completely off Klonopin, and I still take 1mg a day. I have gotten GABA rebound when drinking for years, but nothing like these 2 episodes.

After looking it up, what happened the 2nd time especially sounds like a mild cause of delirium tremens. I read about inability to control body temperature being a danger of the DTs and I got that. But I'm not addicted to alcohol so it's weird. I am dependent on Klonopin though.

Also, if I did this again (drinking, NOT Phenibut, I think I'm done with that shit), could I have a fatal seizure that could kill me?

I REALLY don't want to quit drinking forever, but I will stop as long as is necessary for the sake of my health. I suppose I could just drink less, but that's harder than total abstinence. And obviously i cannot talk to my doctor about this.

What is the explanation for this?

Do I have to quit drinking forever? Or would I just be better off not drinking so much until it's been a while since I've been off Klonopin? (I don't even feel comfortable getting off it completely yet...) Is this likely to happen every time I get drunk from now on?

 

[Mycophile]

Let me also emphasize that I was high and smoking when hungover both times this happened, and we all know weed can give anxiety (and supposedly increase glutamate...), but I've never heard of it leading to the shakes and shivers and dissociation, even in combination with heavy drinking and benzos from the night before.

Someone was saying in another thread that a person could talk themselves into a heart attack. I'm not sure this is true. However, this 2nd time it was as soon as I started worrying about it happening again like the previous week that it began. So I certainly gave myself a panic attack, but it leading to 30 minutes of intense shivering and shaking and feeling freezing till the Klonopin kicked in couldn't probably have happened without me being super hungover.

It's also true that both times I was coming down off of Kratom, and the after effects of Kratom/remaining stimulant alkaloids are pretty anxiogenic...

 

[Mycophile]

Is anyone willing to venture to give even a semi-educated guess as to what was happening here? Maybe a moderator? I mean, I don't just want random opinions from people who have no idea, but if you are someone who knows something considerable about the after effects of GABA drugs, particularly alcohol and Klonopin (Phenibut was the prior week but not this one), and how glutamate works during hangovers, even with the weed and kratom factored in, then I would really like an opinion.

 

[snmfmy]

I really don't think it's Klonopin withdrawal because Klonopin has a half-life of 60 hours and while the easily discernible subjective effects of klonopin can wear off after 12 hours, the benzodiazepine agonism of your gaba receptors and benzodiazepine subreceptors is still continuing, meaning you're not going to go into withdrawal.z

How long have you been taking a half A milligram in the morning and a half A milligram at night? The only thing I would think is that you had tapered down relatively recently and so then you could possibly be going into lower dose pseudo withdrawal but I can't see it causing a Pseudo seizure.

BUT I DO THINK AN INTERACTION BETWEEN THE KRATOM AND THE ALCOHOL OR BETWEEN THE KRATOM THE ALCOHOL AND THE CLONAZEPAM COULD HAVE PRECIPITATED YOUR SEIZURE

This citation identifies kratom induced seizures in a person with benzodiazepine abuse disorder.

A Case of Kratom-induced Seizures

Kratom or Mitragna speciosa is a tropical tree that is indigenous to Southeast Asia, where it has been used for various medicinal reasons. In the West, it is used in the self-treatment of opioid withdrawal, pain, and a variety of mood and anxiety states. ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

This citation identifies kratom induced breakthrough seizures in a person with epilepsy. And that's relevant because epilepsy is a gabaergic dysfunction. So it raises the possibility that kratom is in inducing either a glutamate surge or a antagonism of GABA to the point where brain excitability results in seizure.

Breakthrough Seizure Associated With Kratom Use in Patients With Epilepsy

Kratom (mitragynine) is a commercially available herbal supplement that is gaining popularity in the United States. Kratom is associated with a variety of neurologic effects. This review will discuss kratom's association with seizure through 3 cases and ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[Mycophile]

I really don't think it's Klonopin withdrawal because Klonopin has a half-life of 60 hours and while the easily discernible subjective effects of klonopin can wear off after 12 hours, the benzodiazepine agonism of your gaba receptors and benzodiazepine subreceptors is still continuing, meaning you're not going to go into withdrawal.z

How long have you been taking a half A milligram in the morning and a half A milligram at night? The only thing I would think is that you had tapered down relatively recently and so then you could possibly be going into lower dose pseudo withdrawal but I can't see it causing a Pseudo seizure.

BUT I DO THINK AN INTERACTION BETWEEN THE KRATOM AND THE ALCOHOL OR BETWEEN THE KRATOM THE ALCOHOL AND THE CLONAZEPAM COULD HAVE PRECIPITATED YOUR SEIZURE

This citation identifies kratom induced seizures in a person with benzodiazepine abuse disorder.

A Case of Kratom-induced Seizures

Kratom or Mitragna speciosa is a tropical tree that is indigenous to Southeast Asia, where it has been used for various medicinal reasons. In the West, it is used in the self-treatment of opioid withdrawal, pain, and a variety of mood and anxiety states. ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

This citation identifies kratom induced breakthrough seizures in a person with epilepsy. And that's relevant because epilepsy is a gabaergic dysfunction. So it raises the possibility that kratom is in inducing either a glutamate surge or a antagonism of GABA to the point where brain excitability results in seizure.

Breakthrough Seizure Associated With Kratom Use in Patients With Epilepsy

Kratom (mitragynine) is a commercially available herbal supplement that is gaining popularity in the United States. Kratom is associated with a variety of neurologic effects. This review will discuss kratom's association with seizure through 3 cases and ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Thanks. I'll read those when I get a chance.

I don't know though man. I've done a lot of Kratom and why would the Klonopin have made the glutamate surge or whatever it was go away if it was induced by Kratom?

I can say without almost any doubt that this has a lot to do with the alcohol and possibly the Klonopin. Also, did you read how i said that something very similar had happened a week prior when I drank on Phenibut? When I had that thread on the first episode a moderator said it was glutamate surge induced by drinking on Phenibut.

I have also heard that weed raises glutamate as well. Does Kratom raise glutamate?

And so far people are saying neither time was it actually a seizure. Don't you generally have to be close to unconscious to be having a seizure? I was totally conscious.

This, both times, felt more like some kind of withdrawal or mild DTs. I was really cold and shaking and shivering with dissociation the first time. Had it been a seizure wouldn't I have just been totally out of it and not aware enough to get my Klonopin and wait for it to pass?

Also, from anything I described, do you think it means I need to quit drinking? I really don't want to, but I don't want that to ever happen again.

 

[Mycophile]

And I have been on 1mg of Klonopin a day for about 2 months now give or take. I sometimes will take an extra 0.25 at night though.

 

[snmfmy]

Because Klonopin agonizes gaba receptors and when GABA receptors are agonized, they cause downstream glutamate to not be released.

It's for the exact same reason that benzodiazepines stop alcohol withdrawal syndrome which is glutamate excited toxicity a surge going on all the time in its tracks.

 

[Mycophile]

Because Klonopin agonizes gaba receptors and when GABA receptors are agonized, they cause downstream glutamate to not be released.

It's for the exact same reason that benzodiazepines stop alcohol withdrawal syndrome which is glutamate excited toxicity a surge going on all the time in its tracks.

But would someone really get inability to control body temperature and the shivers for 30 minutes from Kratom? Because I read that that is what happens in alcohol WD and probably also Klonopin and other drug WD. The week prior I really think the biggest factor in the akisthesia was Phenibut. Then again, weed also raises glutamate. There are a lot of factors here.

And would you call what I am describing (in either the 1st or 2nd case...not sure if you read the 1st one...) an actual seizure?

Also, do you think it's a bad idea that I like to take Kratom for hangovers? How much danger of death or a fatal seizure do you think I might have been in? And what would your takeaway be as far as how to be safer to make sure it doesn't happen again?

Do you think if I had just taken the Klonopin earlier before the episode happened that it never would have happened in the first place?

Do you think I have to quit drinking or kratom?

 

[MrStack]

Taking a hallucinogen while tapering from something that eventually causes excitotoxicity is a recipe for experiencing psychosomatic symptoms.. of whatever your mind comes up with. Usually, its whatever you're afraid of and fixated on.

I've been heavily addicted to klonopin while concurrently using kratom, phenibut and weed. Maybe weed is potentiating the undesirable effects of your taper. For example, when I made the jump from 0.25mg of klonopin to none, a week later I found myself in the hospital because of severe chest pains that shot down my left arm. After I was released with a clean bill of health, the chest pain went away.. entirely.

Eliminate possible causes. Maybe one day or night, just take your usual benzo doses, and just smoke weed- no alcohol or phenibut. If it's fine, add phenibut into the mix, see what happens, etc., etc.

Good luck. Dont stress too much over it. I personally feel really cold and shiver after I smoke weed.. but only when I'm sober / not drinking.

 

[Mycophile]

Taking a hallucinogen while tapering from something that eventually causes excitotoxicity is a recipe for experiencing psychosomatic symptoms.. of whatever your mind comes up with. Usually, its whatever you're afraid of and fixated on.

I've been heavily addicted to klonopin while concurrently using kratom, phenibut and weed. Maybe weed is potentiating the undesirable effects of your taper. For example, when I made the jump from 0.25mg of klonopin to none, a week later I found myself in the hospital because of severe chest pains that shot down my left arm. After I was released with a clean bill of health, the chest pain went away.. entirely.

Eliminate possible causes. Maybe one day or night, just take your usual benzo doses, and just smoke weed- no alcohol or phenibut. If it's fine, add phenibut into the mix, see what happens, etc., etc.

Good luck. Dont stress too much over it. I personally feel really cold and shiver after I smoke weed.. but only when I'm sober / not drinking.

I think it's a bit much to call this psychosomatic or to call weed a hallucinogen.

These were real effects from mixing GABA drugs, and there's no need to check if it happens if I don't use any GABA drugs or just my klonopin. It won't happen if I just smoke weed or take kratom, and I've already used those things alone. I'm already staying away from Phenibut.

I really don't think a person can have 30 minutes of temperature dramatically dropping and them shaking uncontrollably for 30-40 minutes and have it be psychosomatic. Trust me, it wasn't. And the prior week the akisthesia and glutamate surge I had wasn't psychosomatic either.

 

[MrStack]

I think it's a bit much to call this psychosomatic or to call weed a hallucinogen.

These were real effects from mixing GABA drugs, and there's no need to check if it happens if I don't use any GABA drugs or just my klonopin. It won't happen if I just smoke weed or take kratom, and I've already used those things alone. I'm already staying away from Phenibut.

I really don't think a person can have 30 minutes of temperature dramatically dropping and them shaking uncontrollably for 30-40 minutes and have it be psychosomatic. Trust me, it wasn't. And the prior week the akisthesia and glutamate surge I had wasn't psychosomatic either.

Alright, so you know the answer to your question then. Good luck.

 

[Mycophile]

Alright, so you know the answer to your question then. Good luck.

I don't know the answer to my question, and am I misreading a bit of an attitude here?

Obviously psychosomatic symptoms can be present as ONE of many factors, but wouldn't you find it a bit annoying for someone tell you that you were shivering uncontrollably for 30 minutes and only Klonopin made it stop yet it WASN'T GABA related and was simply someone freaking out cause they were high? That's honestly quite insulting.

Couple that with the fact that the week earlier I got similar symptoms which a moderator told me was glutamate surge with akisthisia and we know that there were aspects of glutamate surge likely to be present here. Weed can certainly make it worse, but I know my brain and body, and I have never lost the ability to control my body temperature before or had uncontrollable shaking of body parts or akisthesia. You said you've gotten cold while high, but I tend to doubt you have had your entire body SHAKING UNCONTROLLABLY for 30-40 minutes just cause you smoked weed. Whatever it was was certainly related to the alcohol last time and the phenibut and alcohol the first time, but that's all I know.

At least the other guy had some interesting theories regarding kratom and its effects on glutamate, but all you are pointing at is weed anxiety. I'm also not even really that low on my Klonopin taper, and it had been more than a month since I'd lowered my dosage.

 

[Mycophile]

I'd still appreciate any more hopefully-educated guesses on exactly what happened to me here. I know it might not be fun to respond to, but I'm still really trying to figure out what happened, how to avoid it in the future, and whether or not I can still drink.

I think that kindling could be an issue here, seeing as these episodes happened 2 weekends in a row when they never have before, but I would like more input from those who understand this stuff. I also want to know if taking the Klonopin earlier could have prevented the last episode. I mean, it made the shivering and shaking stop once it kicked in, so wouldn't that make it likely that it wouldn't have happened at all had I taken the Klonopin earlier?

 

[Parabolan]

I don't think it was Klonopin withdrawal. Had it been so, you would have known for sure.

There's never a bad time to try and stop alcohol.

 

[snmfmy]

But would someone really get inability to control body temperature and the shivers for 30 minutes from Kratom? Because I read that that is what happens in alcohol WD and probably also Klonopin and other drug WD. The week prior I really think the biggest factor in the akisthesia was Phenibut. Then again, weed also raises glutamate. There are a lot of factors here.

And would you call what I am describing (in either the 1st or 2nd case...not sure if you read the 1st one...) an actual seizure?

Also, do you think it's a bad idea that I like to take Kratom for hangovers? How much danger of death or a fatal seizure do you think I might have been in? And what would your takeaway be as far as how to be safer to make sure it doesn't happen again?

Do you think if I had just taken the Klonopin earlier before the episode happened that it never would have happened in the first place?

Do you think I have to quit drinking or kratom?

I can't really answer most of those questions because I don't know what you're underlying health status is.
And I've been through alcohol withdrawal multiple times and I have never felt like I couldn't control my body temperature and with shivering.

As far as weather was a seizure or not, I really don't know if it was a true seizure. What you describe seem to be seizure like activity.

And If the mechanism in play is antagonism of GABA ergic signals meaning reducing the effect of GABA receptors on the brain, that would lead to seizure like activity.

I'm going to paste a citation below. In the paper it describes that kratom alkaloids agonize the mu opioid receptor and antagonize the kappa opioid receptor, apparently this antagonizes gabaergic function:


"Kratom was found to have a higher affinity towards the Kappa opioid receptors rather than the Mu and Delta receptors [7]. Chemically it acts as an agonist at the Mu receptors and an antagonist at the Kappa receptors. These effects lead to the inhibition of gamma-aminobutyric acid (GABA), an inhibitory neurotransmitter"

Life-Threatening Hyponatremia Secondary to Chronic Kratom Use: A Case Presentation

Hyponatremia is defined as a serum sodium concentration of less than 135 mEq/L. Severe hyponatremia is defined as a serum sodium concentration of less than 125 mEq/L and is a life-threatening complication that must be managed promptly to avoid irreversible ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

If the kratom is actually inhibiting the effects of GABA, like the paper describes, that could cause convulsant like activity and most likely would lower the seizure threshold meaning more likely that seizures could occur.

I would be hesitant to take large doses of kratom when the literature specifically indicates that it can cause breakthrough seizures in epilepsy as well as benzodiazepine use disorder, I would be cautious because you've had what could be considered seizure activity and you're also a previously prolific user of benzodiazepines.

 

[Skorpio]

This is a fairly difficult question because of the polypharmacy involved. To get closer to a reasonable answer we would ideally determine if each drug you have taken/not taken is necessary or sufficient to cause those uncomfortable effects.

How often do you take the phenibut and kratom, and how long has that frequency of use been sustained? How much did you drink each time this happened, and how much do you normally drink?

Both being hung over and missing a dose of klonopin can be anxiogenic, and weed is also anxiogenic. I would be hard pressed to say that it increases glutamate, as it isn't contradicted in epilepsy and isnt known to cause seizures on its own, but it certainly is anxiogenic. This effect is likely due to circuit effects of cb1 agonism rather than a global rise in glutamate.

If you are willing to feel a bit shit again, you could try skipping a klonopin dose without drinking or doing other drugs. This will tell you if klonopin withdrawal is suffficient to cause that anxiety.

That is my best guess for the main culprit, but I am biased by a rather hearty fear of benzos. I have noticed an increase in baseline anxiety when taking klonopin a few times a week over a few month period.

 

[Mycophile]

I don't think it was Klonopin withdrawal. Had it been so, you would have known for sure.

There's never a bad time to try and stop alcohol.

Except that I don't want to quit alcohol...

I don't even drink on a weekly basis, so I don't really see why I should unless I have literally no other option.

 

[Mycophile]

This is a fairly difficult question because of the polypharmacy involved. To get closer to a reasonable answer we would ideally determine if each drug you have taken/not taken is necessary or sufficient to cause those uncomfortable effects.

How often do you take the phenibut and kratom, and how long has that frequency of use been sustained? How much did you drink each time this happened, and how much do you normally drink?

Both being hung over and missing a dose of klonopin can be anxiogenic, and weed is also anxiogenic. I would be hard pressed to say that it increases glutamate, as it isn't contradicted in epilepsy and isnt known to cause seizures on its own, but it certainly is anxiogenic. This effect is likely due to circuit effects of cb1 agonism rather than a global rise in glutamate.

If you are willing to feel a bit shit again, you could try skipping a klonopin dose without drinking or doing other drugs. This will tell you if klonopin withdrawal is suffficient to cause that anxiety.

That is my best guess for the main culprit, but I am biased by a rather hearty fear of benzos. I have noticed an increase in baseline anxiety when taking klonopin a few times a week over a few month period.

To answer some of your questions (starting with about a month ago when this happened since I've abstained from all drugs but weed since):

1) I was taking kratom generally 2 days a week on the weekend, and not very high doses, only like 3.2-3.5 grams, maybe 2 doses on Saturday and 1-2 on Sunday.

2) Phenibut wasn't even as regular as the Kratom. At the most I would take around 2,500mgs one day per week. That's kind of a big dose though. But I would sometimes go weeks or months without a single Phenibut dose.

3) I drank a lot both times, and I drink a lot when i do drink. I don't necessarily drink regularly though. Generally I don't drink more than 1 night per week except when I binge during my August vacation. But the first of the 2 weekends when I took the Phenibut I drank about a normal sized bottle of wine with it. The next weekend when I didn't take Phenibut I drank 4 shots of whiskey and then a bottle of wine, so I was really drunk.

What exactly does "circuit effects of cb1 agonism" mean?

I could skip a dose of Klonopin, but I really don't believe it would cause any real problems, other than more difficulty falling asleep with my nighttime dose. I'd rather not have more trouble sleeping though. I could skip the daytime dose, but I don't see the point really. I think I'd just be slightly more anxious.

Do you think these episodes were actual seizures though? One other poster is calling them "seizure like activity", and frankly, it's scaring the shit out of me. I heard that shaking and shivering is quite common with alcohol withdrawal and he says he's had alcohol wd and never had shaking and shivering. That scares me even more. Would you call these seizures? Wouldn't I need to be sort of unconscious to have a seizure? And how bad really do you think this kind of thing is? Does it sound life threatening? Cause what scares me is I can't think of a doctor I'd feel safe asking about this. I certainly cannot ask my psychiatrist or he'd cut me off from Klonopin and I'd be in all sorts of trouble.

I wish moderators like Necrogesic would respond. He seemed to have an idea about the first episode and is my top candidate for possibly having an explanation for what happened this 2nd time.

If anyone else has an ideas, PLEASE respond.

 

[Mycophile]

I can't really answer most of those questions because I don't know what you're underlying health status is.
And I've been through alcohol withdrawal multiple times and I have never felt like I couldn't control my body temperature and with shivering.

As far as weather was a seizure or not, I really don't know if it was a true seizure. What you describe seem to be seizure like activity.

And If the mechanism in play is antagonism of GABA ergic signals meaning reducing the effect of GABA receptors on the brain, that would lead to seizure like activity.

I'm going to paste a citation below. In the paper it describes that kratom alkaloids agonize the mu opioid receptor and antagonize the kappa opioid receptor, apparently this antagonizes gabaergic function:


"Kratom was found to have a higher affinity towards the Kappa opioid receptors rather than the Mu and Delta receptors [7]. Chemically it acts as an agonist at the Mu receptors and an antagonist at the Kappa receptors. These effects lead to the inhibition of gamma-aminobutyric acid (GABA), an inhibitory neurotransmitter"

Life-Threatening Hyponatremia Secondary to Chronic Kratom Use: A Case Presentation

Hyponatremia is defined as a serum sodium concentration of less than 135 mEq/L. Severe hyponatremia is defined as a serum sodium concentration of less than 125 mEq/L and is a life-threatening complication that must be managed promptly to avoid irreversible ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

If the kratom is actually inhibiting the effects of GABA, like the paper describes, that could cause convulsant like activity and most likely would lower the seizure threshold meaning more likely that seizures could occur.

I would be hesitant to take large doses of kratom when the literature specifically indicates that it can cause breakthrough seizures in epilepsy as well as benzodiazepine use disorder, I would be cautious because you've had what could be considered seizure activity and you're also a previously prolific user of benzodiazepines.

This scares the shit out of me, but I really don't have any way of knowing it's what was going on.

From looking up hyponatremia, it seems like something very much associated with electrolyte imbalance and loss which is often seen from dehydration or overhydration. I get the idea that kratom could somehow cause that (though I still don't really understand how), but then couldn't just drinking some gatorade or enough water with salt in it prevent that? And I don't understand why Klonopin would help with a condition relating to loss of electrolytes.

I also don't use LARGE doses of kratom. My doses are usually in the 3.2-3.5 gram range.

But we really can't know because of so many factors. It's funny to me that the one substance I had been thinking did NOT play any real kind of role is the kratom, yet you think it's the main culprit. I tend to think that the alcohol and phenibut were the biggest culprits, Klonopin in 2nd place, weed in 3rd and kratom last of all, but I could be completely wrong. I mean, i don't see any of this happening without either alcohol or Phenibut in play. No way I can imagine myself taking my small doses of daily prescribed Klonopin, a small dose of kratom and smoking weed and getting these effects. I've done all that (though I usually don't smoke on kratom, more often when coming down) and it hasn't happened. It really FELT like this was something happening to me as a result of over use of GABA drugs, but even though i can't really understand your points about how kratom relates, I see that it does in some ways relate to GABA.

I hate the fact that we don't have doctors on this site, or do we?? Are there any doctors or nurses of any kind on here who could have a guess about this?

 

[snmfmy]

This scares the shit out of me, but I really don't have any way of knowing it's what was going on.

From looking up hyponatremia, it seems like something very much associated with electrolyte imbalance and loss which is often seen from dehydration or overhydration. I get the idea that kratom could somehow cause that (though I still don't really understand how), but then couldn't just drinking some gatorade or enough water with salt in it prevent that? And I don't understand why Klonopin would help with a condition relating to loss of electrolytes.

I also don't use LARGE doses of kratom. My doses are usually in the 3.2-3.5 gram range.

But we really can't know because of so many factors. It's funny to me that the one substance I had been thinking did NOT play any real kind of role is the kratom, yet you think it's the main culprit. I tend to think that the alcohol and phenibut were the biggest culprits, Klonopin in 2nd place, weed in 3rd and kratom last of all, but I could be completely wrong. I mean, i don't see any of this happening without either alcohol or Phenibut in play. No way I can imagine myself taking my small doses of daily prescribed Klonopin, a small dose of kratom and smoking weed and getting these effects. I've done all that (though I usually don't smoke on kratom, more often when coming down) and it hasn't happened. It really FELT like this was something happening to me as a result of over use of GABA drugs, but even though i can't really understand your points about how kratom relates, I see that it does in some ways relate to GABA.

I hate the fact that we don't have doctors on this site, or do we?? Are there any doctors or nurses of any kind on here who could have a guess about this?

It wouldn't matter if we had doctors or not. This is on the edge of emerging neuroscience and combinatorial reactions to multiple receptor systems because you're not supposed to be taking large doses of benzodiazepines, opioids, herbal opioids like kratom in an uncontrolled manner like you are.

I mean you're almost doing investigational experimentation in one of two categories either

PLAY STUPID GAMES, WIN STUPID PRIZES!

or

FUCK AROUND AND FIND OUT!

While it is thin and very very loosely supported, there is evidence that seizures occur when kratom is used by people with gabaergic dysfunction caused by either benzodiazepine abuse or epilepsy.

We're not sure if you have breakthrough seizures that have been hidden by your benzodiazepine used for years.

What we do know is that you used an excessive amount of benzodiazepines, that you have recently lowered your dose extremely. That would instigate gabaergic dysfunction because you're still in a partially with drawn state even with no symptoms.

There is absolute evidence that kratom acts at the benzodiazepine site of the GABA receptor.

So you know you have the evidence, you have the observed effects, but you still want to argue against what you've seen.