Warning: MXP Psychosis

[Solipsis]

I definitely consider dissociatives like ketamine somewhat psychedelic, just not strictly 'a psychedelic' because that would be too much like saying primarily a psychedelic and nothing else, it would too easily make people think that one is talking about a classical psychedelic. I would call deliriants only a little psychedelic though, because afaik there is relatively little manifestation of your true self and identity but rather an overwhelming manifestation of delusions.

You might also read me posting something like: the R-isomer of ketamine feels a lot more psychedelic to me than the S-isomer which feels more narcotic. Psychedelic means mind manifesting, and while technically the drugs aren't doing that but it is just always the brain manifesting your mind at all times, psychedelic drugs particularly influence consciousness, thought and (sensory) experience. The approach of dissociatives (via the information coding system of the NMDA receptors) is a little different, but still a big part of that target I just mentioned is hit by it. I'd say most of the dissociative drug effects you would call the sought-after effects can be captured with that line of bold text.

As for your comparisons:
- I think that stimulation or sedation of a drug is one of the last things to look at unless it is pretty much the main effect. Otherwise it's easy to miss the point as it tends to be a side-effect, or at least not the main sought-after effect. LSD might usually be stimulating and it is sympathomimetic, but most people don't take it to stay awake... that is why it is only confusing to use it as an argument in this context.
- Whether a drug feels natural or artificial has absolutely nothing to do with psychedelia. And even if it did, there are quite artificial feeling psychedelics.
- Saying that ketamine is numbing, while true, is IMO missing the point which is that it can have very distorting and warping effects on sensory input and proprioception. It is not a mere painkiller or local anaesthetic.
- The blackout factor is also not really relevant to psychedelia. For the same reason that the point of ketamine - ask your average recreational user - is not whether or not it has capability to anaesthesize a person if you take enough, but what happens before that: at sub-anaesthetic doses.

Many if not all psychedelics can be dissociative actually, although that is often not so hard to miss. Many effects of meditation are potentiated, and so are the experience of out-of-body experiences.. something ultra-strong psychedelic trips and dissociatives like ketamine have in common. There are a lot of dissociatives however that are stimulating and have monoamine activity which I guess will prevent that side of the effects.

Heroin can actually be psychedelic, but the main headlines of its effects must still be the euphoria analgesia, relaxation and sedation right?

You try hard to list differences between LSD and ketamine (especially differences felt at first) but listing as many as possible doesn't actually prove your point, it mostly obscures it. The point is to look at all the things they ultimately have in common, again that line of bold text. Categorization will always remain an intersubjective process, but that doesn't mean one way to categorize doesn't make more sense than another way right?

 

[Crashing]

I regularly have dissociative trips in which CEVs consist of full blown and completely realistic full on color hallucinations of walking through or flying through a temperate forest. The images are incredibly more realistic than anything i have ever experienced on pure psychedelics which generally consist of unreal patterning and distortions.

And other times, i just dissociate without CEVs. Depends on set and setting. But they inherently contain properties that can be more psychedelic than psychedelics themselves, like total astral projection and other intensely realistic ESP phenomena. These things are rare with psychedelics for me personally. Combining the two is by far the most psychedelic experience that I can manage, let alone adding cannabis or a whippet.

We have to remember there are also purely sedative anesthetics used in medical settings, without the dissociation and therefore entirely non-psychedelic.

 

[AA357]

I definitely consider dissociatives like ketamine somewhat psychedelic, just not strictly 'a psychedelic' because that would be too much like saying primarily a psychedelic and nothing else, it would too easily make people think that one is talking about a classical psychedelic. I would call deliriants only a little psychedelic though, because afaik there is relatively little manifestation of your true self and identity but rather an overwhelming manifestation of delusions.

You might also read me posting something like: the R-isomer of ketamine feels a lot more psychedelic to me than the S-isomer which feels more narcotic. Psychedelic means mind manifesting, and while technically the drugs aren't doing that but it is just always the brain manifesting your mind at all times, psychedelic drugs particularly influence consciousness, thought and (sensory) experience. The approach of dissociatives (via the information coding system of the NMDA receptors) is a little different, but still a big part of that target I just mentioned is hit by it. I'd say most of the dissociative drug effects you would call the sought-after effects can be captured with that line of bold text.

As for your comparisons:
- I think that stimulation or sedation of a drug is one of the last things to look at unless it is pretty much the main effect. Otherwise it's easy to miss the point as it tends to be a side-effect, or at least not the main sought-after effect. LSD might usually be stimulating and it is sympathomimetic, but most people don't take it to stay awake... that is why it is only confusing to use it as an argument in this context.
- Whether a drug feels natural or artificial has absolutely nothing to do with psychedelia. And even if it did, there are quite artificial feeling psychedelics.
- Saying that ketamine is numbing, while true, is IMO missing the point which is that it can have very distorting and warping effects on sensory input and proprioception. It is not a mere painkiller or local anaesthetic.
- The blackout factor is also not really relevant to psychedelia. For the same reason that the point of ketamine - ask your average recreational user - is not whether or not it has capability to anaesthesize a person if you take enough, but what happens before that: at sub-anaesthetic doses.

Many if not all psychedelics can be dissociative actually, although that is often not so hard to miss. Many effects of meditation are potentiated, and so are the experience of out-of-body experiences.. something ultra-strong psychedelic trips and dissociatives like ketamine have in common. There are a lot of dissociatives however that are stimulating and have monoamine activity which I guess will prevent that side of the effects.

Heroin can actually be psychedelic, but the main headlines of its effects must still be the euphoria analgesia, relaxation and sedation right?

You try hard to list differences between LSD and ketamine (especially differences felt at first) but listing as many as possible doesn't actually prove your point, it mostly obscures it. The point is to look at all the things they ultimately have in common, again that line of bold text. Categorization will always remain an intersubjective process, but that doesn't mean one way to categorize doesn't make more sense than another way right?

Your definition of the term psychedelic is too loose. "Mind manifesting" is the literal translation of the term "psychedelic" (which is of Greek origin). What if I were to tell you that the only drug that I found truly "mind manifesting" - the only drug that has actually influenced my thoughts and personality for the better was methamphetamine? My experiences with that drug last year have made me a more productive and clean-living person in the long run.

In common parlance, the term "psychedelic" is generally reserved for hallucinogens that act as serotonin agonists. Dissociative anaesthetics are considered to be a seperate class of hallucinogen.

Here's an analogy: the literal meaning of the Greek-derived term "paedophile" is very innocent. It translates quite simply as one who loves children (no sexual connotation whatsoever).
With that in mind, do you consider yourself a paedophile?

 

[Tranced]

I've known two people to have a (temporary) psychotic episode off MXP in the past few weeks.

Both are very experienced ketamine users and otherwise healthy.

This certainly wasn't on par with the k-holes they've been in in the past.

 

[Crashing]

What if I were to tell you that the only drug that I found truly "mind manifesting" - the only drug that has actually influenced my thoughts and personality for the better was methamphetamine? My experiences with that drug last year have made me a more productive and clean-living person in the long run.

Sorry dude, not trying to argue, but i would probably lol.

 

[Ziiirp]

Sorry dude, not trying to argue, but i would probably lol.

Very hard to believe, indeed (coincidence maybe, but you never know, which drug - if any - is the right one for the moment for the organism at hand). No drug helped me to become a more disciplined person. Neither psychedelics, dissos nore stimulants and the least depressants.

I used MXP as an introspection tool at moderate doses (~60-100mg over the course of a few hours) every 7-14 days in the last year. I think, people, who have problems with it, get the dose wrong. You should not take it more than once a week (perhaps you should never take it, because the it is completely untested and possibly damaging to your organs), if only because of the very long half-life. It is one of the mentally gentliest, that I've ever taken. For me it is emotionally cleansing, without pushing you in a self-pitying direction like many 5ht2-a agonists tend to do. The wrong use of chemical's notation leads to errors in the expectations of the consumer's mind. It is not MXE. Actually I'm glad, that I've never taken MXE, as - contrarily to Methoxphenidine - it seems to be serotonergic. And I belong to the group of people, that dislike serotonine reuptake inhibitors/releasers. I dislike MDMA and Mephedrone. They provide an environment, where your problems are magically solved, because there suddenly is an artificially perception of connectedness, which is devastated after you've landed.

But MXP has also annoying after effects. The worst one is high blood pressure. I cannot exercise unfetteredly for 24 hours after the experience, because the stimulating after effects are quite pronounced.

Just saying. For me MXP feels indeed psychedelic at the non-hole-doses I've taken.

 

[Crashing]

I can't believe that that MXE is serotonergic, as the pupils are unaffected if not constricted while under the influence, which seemingly would be quite rare for a drug that increases available serotonin in any way..

 

[AA357]

I bought some 0.5g pure glass d-meth last year. I was taking 30mg orally (a high therapeutic/low recreational dose) every Saturday morning for 3 months. The increased drive and productivity became natural - I work harder in the gym now and I'm a lot more diligent with my housework.

I take psychedelics for shits and giggles; they make me feel ridiculously happy for absolutely no reason. I just can't take them seriously because they make me feel so damn silly.

 

[Ziiirp]

@ Crashing

I think I've read a paper about it, but I'm not sure. In any case, in the MXE-thread it seems to be common sense, that it bares serotonergic activity. Let's talk again in ~5 years and evaluate the papers then.

 

[sekio]

I can't believe that that MXE is serotonergic, as the pupils are unaffected if not constricted while under the influence, which seemingly would be quite rare for a drug that increases available serotonin in any way..

If it's a mild serotonin reuptake inhibitor you wouldn't notice. Most people don't measure their pupils either!

 

[Crashing]

Perhaps it is a mild SRI, i'm not really sure. Doesn't seem to be much conclusive data on it actually. I know DXM fiddles with serotonin..

I always check my pupils, just out of curiosity. Definitely seems to be a relationship between Serotonin activity and pupil dilation but maybe it's not entirely related?

 

[sekio]

Perhaps it is a mild SRI, i'm not really sure. Doesn't seem to be much conclusive data on it actually.

Except for the ECMD report which was released several years ago.

DXM does a lot more than "fiddle" serotonin, it's also a potent norepinephrine reuptake inhibitor. That's partially why it ganks your pupils, well, that and the fact that it's more of a SNRI than a dissociative based on affinities...

I think only drugs that cause large amounts of serotonin/norepinehrine to be released, or those that have considerable direct activity at e.g. 5ht2a receptors, will dilate pupils. (I think the pupil is actually controled by norepinephrine, not serotonin, anyway?)

 

[Crashing]

Thanks sekio. ( I suppose i should stay away from the term 'fiddle' )

I did find this article http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0059334 suggesting that MXE has a mild SERT binding affinity.

It appears after reading the wikipedia article on Mydriasis that pupils may dilate by a few different means, including anticholinergic blocking activity, an increase in overall serotonin activity, and adrenal response/norepinephrine release.