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Very serious penetration problem

Misandry does exist and so does racism against white people. It's like saying domestic violence against men doesn't exist. Just because it isn't anywhere near as prevalent as the opposite, doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
 
Racism against white people (so-called 'reverse racism') isn't a thing. You're thinking of prejudice. That definitely exists but there is no such thing as institutionalised discrimination against white people causing lifelong disadvantage, lack of opportunity and reduced quality of life on most metrics. We are the oppressors and we have all the privilege.


sorry for getting OT but proper use of words matter.

Back on topic has the OP been back at all? I'm curious to know how she's going.
 
No. Prejudice against white people/male people does exist in lesser extent sure. But racism/sexism is prejudice + systemic power. Women do not have systemic power over men, nor do black people have systemic power over white people. The prejudice isn't an ism. And in any instance whatever "prejudice" a slave holds against his/her master is most likely justified.

Edit to add: Oh and how is spreading the word to other women that they are neither alone nor abnormal if they don't like penetration, and that they don't have to feel pressured to do things they don't want to just because men want them to do things for them prejudiced against men in the first place? Its not. We ought to stop requiring women to set themselves on fire to keep men warm.The accusation that women asserting their right to say no to sex acts they don't like/want that are painful/injurous is "misandry" is itself an example of misogyny.
 
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I'm a woman, and they're right. There is such a thing as misandry, and I can smell it in your post too.

I suggest the rest of you not argue with this woman, well intentioned though I think she may be, her views are extreme to me too and I consider myself a feminist too. Like all purveyors of extremist ideology, her post serves two functions. One is to make the moderates of her cause look extreme too and get drowned out and written off with her by moderates, and the other is to make the extremists from her counterpart cause feel vindicated. As are their utility to her.

Libby, if in your heart you're an extremist, and truly feel right in everything you say and do (I'm not asking to to tell me if you do or you don't, I don't want you too. I want you to ask yourself and only yourself, because you will be at your most open to honesty towards yourself, which is why I don't want you to even consider that the answer is for me to hear). If that's the case, everything I'm bout to say is a waste of time and I know it. And if I knew you were really as extreme as you sound, I wouldn't bother writing it. I'm only writing it under the possibility that you're not. That maybe you're just a good intentioned person who believes in doing what's for the betterment of all humans and feminism is just one part of that greater whole. And that you've simply met the wrong kind of supposed feminists to look up too. The wrong kind of roll models to emulate. And that there is still a chance that through reason and understanding you can come to one day see the error of your ways and move towards true, constructive feminism. And away from the kind of self proclaimed feminism that makes even most women cringe at the thought of being labeled as.

Sorry libby but there's standing up for what's right and then there's extremism, and your post went just that bit too far beyond good and into extreme rhetoric. Telling women they have a right to refuse anything they're uncomfortable with is fine, saying that most women need cliteral stimulation to orgasm is fine. Saying most women won't orgasm from penetration alone. All fine. If it's the truth both in the words and the spirit of the meaning with honest intent it's fine, and it's fine to encourage women to stand up for themselves and to promote feminism and all that good stuff. But trying to claim misandrony can't or doesnt exist is extremist bs. As is ridiculous arguments that penis in vagina sex is a socialized phenomenon entirely and nothing to do with evolutionary purpose or function is both ridiculous, extremist, and just stupid and factually wrong. You've got it all backwards. Taking what's 'natural' as innately good and trying to make nature match your beliefs. Rather than considering the possibility nature is wrong or indifferent or irrelevant.

Nature gave women the short stick in the bio lottery in most respects, it's nothing to do with good or bad, it just 'is'.

So you can advocate maybe society should stop thinking of sex in purely male centric terms, but for gods sake you need a better argument than that cause noone with their head half screwed on straight is gonna buy that penis in vagina sex isn't the primary way our kinds of species reproduce. The penis is designed by evolution as one of its functions being to impregnate women through the vagina. Arguing otherwise is just silly. Now, we have a clitoris, which means women enjoying sex has a place in the natural order of things too. If it didn't it wouldn't still be there. But it's all irrelevant because as a society we should do what's right. Which is not always what's natural. You strike me as someone who's prochoice, if you are, I can promise you abortion isn't natural. Women's reproductive freedom isn't natural. Natural is not automatically good.

Libby, I'm honestly trying to do you a favor here. I can see you have a lot of posts and have been around for a long time, so I don't think you're a troll. I think you really believe what you're saying. But I also think you've been taken in by extremism posing as modern day feminism. I believe in feminism and I believe in feminism still having a place and work to do in the modern world, but there is a growing backlash that includes both misogynist men, moderate ordinary men, and moderate ordinary women, to what is seen as modern feminism. Which is mostly imagined to be the kind your advocating.

Ever notice how mens rights movements seem to have a lot more to say on how women have wrecked everything than on mens rights? That's cause any real mens rights movement has been hijacked by misogynists. And the kind of viewponts you're repeating were formed by our version of them. Feminism should not be about how much men suck, it should be about bettering and improving society for women and girls so we and our daughters have equal rights and opportunity both in law and in social groupthink. We've made much progress on the former but not on the latter. And we won't if we're written off as a bunch of crazies. And I'm sorry but that's how normal people, moderate people, the ones who we're trying to convince, see the kind of stuff you wrote.

If you consider yourself a feminist, and I barely know you so only you can answer this, but if you do, then as one feminist to another I implore you to consider where you take your views from. There is real injustice in the world and real inequality, sexism, towards women, in the modern world. And if you wanna stop that, great, in that sense we're on the same team. But there are individuals, extremists who want to change the whole world to fit an extremely niche viewpoint that ultimately does nothing in advancing true equality, who are going around under the name of feminism, while their male counterparts do the same under the mens rights movement banner. And their actions serve to do nothing but increase inequality and prejudice. And to undermine the well intentioned moderate advocates who simply wish to use those banners to make the world a better place for other people suffering the same obsticles. And right now I think you've been listening too much to the wrong side.

Your original post contained generalized negative statements about men that would be unacceptable if men said them about women. Which makes them unacceptable for women to say about men too. Feminism is about women, and hating or deriding men is not about women. There is nothing wrong at all with you encouraging other women to express their boundaries. But there's also nothing sexist about a woman wanting to get over an issue she's having with "piv" sex for her boyfriend. So long as he's not unduly pressuring her, it's her choice to want to do something to benefit the man she loves for his enjoyment, and he should strive to do the same for her. That's what love is, putting someone else before everything, even yourself. And in a good loving relationship both partners strive to make the other one happy more than they do for themselves, and in doing so create a balance of mutual love, giving, and happiness.

We will never make progress through extremism because it's so easily dismissed and it alienates sympathetic moderates. It's why so many women refuse to identify as feminist like it's a dirty word. And I know exactly why, I used to be one of those women. Until I came to see how much injustice still exists against women and how being against that injustice is not wrong. And that I shouldn't let the people tarnishing the meaning of feminism win by refusing to use it as a label when it's true to what I believe. I'm also against sexism towards men, and misandery. Your post here contained elements of misandery, and it's not ok. You can't be a feminist, and a misanderist, and not be a hypocrite. You can make womens issues your primary focus, maybe your only focus. But discrimination or derogatory remarks about men, is not ok. It doesn't matter how much power they still have, or how equal the sexism is in society, that can all be reasons you focus on sexism against women, but none of it makes it suddenly ok to do the same sort of shit to men. Two wrongs don't make a right here. And neither does it matter whos been the victim longer or how much worse. None of it is ok.

If you're a feminist, you must also be against sexism towards men. You don't have to fight that battle too, that's your choice, but it does mean you can't go being sexist to men in ways youd never dream of being to women. It's hypocrisy, and sexism, both of which are wrong.

Think about what ive said. Even if first you go and come up with every argument you can think of to shoot me down and post it, once you've one that. Give some real thought to what ive said and if you can truly say no part of you feels it has merit. You don't need to admit defeat, you need not say anything. I don't need to know if I succeeded or won, I'd rather you really think about it and decide whatever you'll decide without ever knowing what you decided if it meant youd think about it honestly, from your heart and your head alone. Not to win an argument with me, not for anyone elses benefit but purely for you. If what you believe is right, then it will stand up to you being open and honest with yourself and thinking about the merits of what you believe considering what ive said. And I'm concerned that like most you'll be too preoccupied finding a way to disagree with me to actually put much thought into what ive said. That's how most people react in any situation like this. But it's not the path towards wisdom. It's blind defense of a faith.

Oh and of course there can be racism towards whites. Institutionalized or not, even if blacks have had it a billion times worse a billion times longer. One white person being hated for being white, or discriminated against for it, by even one person, it's still racism. If you favor one race, you discriminate against all the others. Hitler was all about 'affirmative action' for whites by another name. You favor any race, that disfavors the others, that inequality, and that's racism. All racism is racism and all racism is bad, all the time.
 
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Yeah look up Radical Feminism and learn what it actually means and then I might be interested in your opinion on it. Until then. And if you want to talk evolutionary traits maybe read a bit about Bonobo (our closest ape relatives) sexuality, you can learn a lot about a equal/mutual ways of conducting sexual relationships. Women standing up for themselves against oppression is not discrimination against men. Nor is black people standing up against their oppression somehow discriminatory against whites. You sounding like one of those reet "All lives matter" arguments. Of course all lives matter but "black lives matter" does not imply that white lives don't, its pointing out what needs to be grasped to achieve the mind state that all lives matter. Please read some books or some shit and then get back to me, you have potential.
 
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Welp, I tried. My conscience is clear.

If nothing else my post challanges the notion that all feminists today are like you, that's enough justification for me to have made the time worth it.
 
Do you even know that there are many different feminist movements? First wave, second wave, third wave? In the main there are radical feminists and liberal feminists. Radical feminists seek liberation from patriarchy by dismantling systems of oppression at their root. Liberal feminists are more like seeking reform within the current system leaving the foundations of the power structure intact. Which is really a resolve to become the murderer instead of the murdered, the rapist instead of the raped etc. You have a good brain and can reason well and I'm glad your conscience is clear, but maybe you'd do better to learn more about what you're argueing before you solidify your opinions on it. That's my advice to you.
 
I'm not just knee jerk opposing you like you pressume. I'm serious if you learn about feminist history/theory and you still oppose my stance on the issue and can back up your argument, I will respect your opinion, and maybe we would even learn some things from each other and that would be sisterhood.
 
You could just have a retroverted uterus. Its relatively common and causes painful sex. You will need to get an ultrasound to check it out.
 
I know enough about the various feminist schools of thought to know I don't strongly agree with the adherents of almost any of them. So I disregard all of it and simply use the broader term feminism. Which as far as I'm concerned simply means you believe the world should offer the same opportunities and respect to women as it does to men. And unlike a lot of people i, like you i assume, believe the world hasn't completely reached that point yet. Unlike you though, if you're a follower of the radical feminism school of thought, i probably don't think nearly as much need change as you probably do.

I see now that you really do believe the things you've said, ive known people who recite beliefs like yours, but have acquired them from one or two individuals in their life and simply followed them. It's not really what they believe because they're too lost to have formed their own beliefs sadly. It's someone else beliefs said through them because they're followers. Well intentioned, but easily influenced. To them there is some point in trying to get them to see that. But someone like you, who knows full well why they believe what they believe, all i can say is I think your beliefs are mistaken. You're probably smart enough that most likely there will already be reasoned and rational thoughts behind most of your beliefs, ultimately leading to a few subjective views that we simply disagree on in which there is no easy way to say whos right objectively, if there even is a right. We just have to agree to disagree.

You're obviously not stupid, you're not a troll, and i don't think you're a sheep, so, even knowing you're a radical feminist, i still find it bewildering some of the points you made. And you still need to realize that most women aren't followers of any particular feminist school of thought, most probably don't even consider themselves feminists, I certainly don't know many (though I don't run in feminist circles obviously). And that in that, you'd have to know that a post like yours would derail the thread. And that it strays far outside mainstream discourse into niche belief systems along the way to making it's point. This not being a feminist thread, you'd have to assume that the original poster, like most women, don't know very much about the varied world of feminist theory. And that replying to it from that kind of frame of reference is going to get off topic attention to say it very generously.
 
Libby said:
I'm not just knee jerk opposing you like you pressume. I'm serious if you learn about feminist history/theory and you still oppose my stance on the issue and can back up your argument, I will respect your opinion, and maybe we would even learn some things from each other and that would be sisterhood.
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I don't think you're knee jerk opposing me, I thought you would in my first post, but that was before I realized I was dealing with less of the lost sheep looking for something to believe in type I'm used too, and more of the women's studies feminist theory college grad type. The latter type, you, i don't really wish to argue with at all. Because we could probably discuss it for days and id give it huge odds once all the misunderstanding and streams of logical argument had played it, it would ultimately come down to subjective disagreement that be won or lost with reasoned debate. Reason and logic can lead to very different places is the core precept is subjective. And in this case that core precept IS pretty subjective. Men and women are NOT %100 biologically equal, which means all ideas of equalness need to work within that for them to work in all cases. And inevitably there will be questions with no right answers but only preferences, subjective beliefs without objective right and wrongs.
 
JessFR said:
I'm a woman, and they're right. There is such a thing as misandry, and I can smell it in your post too.

I suggest the rest of you not argue with this woman, well intentioned though I think she may be, her views are extreme to me too and I consider myself a feminist too. Like all purveyors of extremist ideology, her post serves two functions. One is to make the moderates of her cause look extreme too and get drowned out and written off with her by moderates, and the other is to make the extremists from her counterpart cause feel vindicated. As are their utility to her.

Libby, if in your heart you're an extremist, and truly feel right in everything you say and do (I'm not asking to to tell me if you do or you don't, I don't want you too. I want you to ask yourself and only yourself, because you will be at your most open to honesty towards yourself, which is why I don't want you to even consider that the answer is for me to hear). If that's the case, everything I'm bout to say is a waste of time and I know it. And if I knew you were really as extreme as you sound, I wouldn't bother writing it. I'm only writing it under the possibility that you're not. That maybe you're just a good intentioned person who believes in doing what's for the betterment of all humans and feminism is just one part of that greater whole. And that you've simply met the wrong kind of supposed feminists to look up too. The wrong kind of roll models to emulate. And that there is still a chance that through reason and understanding you can come to one day see the error of your ways and move towards true, constructive feminism. And away from the kind of self proclaimed feminism that makes even most women cringe at the thought of being labeled as.

Sorry libby but there's standing up for what's right and then there's extremism, and your post went just that bit too far beyond good and into extreme rhetoric. Telling women they have a right to refuse anything they're uncomfortable with is fine, saying that most women need cliteral stimulation to orgasm is fine. Saying most women won't orgasm from penetration alone. All fine. If it's the truth both in the words and the spirit of the meaning with honest intent it's fine, and it's fine to encourage women to stand up for themselves and to promote feminism and all that good stuff. But trying to claim misandrony can't or doesnt exist is extremist bs. As is ridiculous arguments that penis in vagina sex is a socialized phenomenon entirely and nothing to do with evolutionary purpose or function is both ridiculous, extremist, and just stupid and factually wrong. You've got it all backwards. Taking what's 'natural' as innately good and trying to make nature match your beliefs. Rather than considering the possibility nature is wrong or indifferent or irrelevant.

Nature gave women the short stick in the bio lottery in most respects, it's nothing to do with good or bad, it just 'is'.

So you can advocate maybe society should stop thinking of sex in purely male centric terms, but for gods sake you need a better argument than that cause noone with their head half screwed on straight is gonna buy that penis in vagina sex isn't the primary way our kinds of species reproduce. The penis is designed by evolution as one of its functions being to impregnate women through the vagina. Arguing otherwise is just silly. Now, we have a clitoris, which means women enjoying sex has a place in the natural order of things too. If it didn't it wouldn't still be there. But it's all irrelevant because as a society we should do what's right. Which is not always what's natural. You strike me as someone who's prochoice, if you are, I can promise you abortion isn't natural. Women's reproductive freedom isn't natural. Natural is not automatically good.

Libby, I'm honestly trying to do you a favor here. I can see you have a lot of posts and have been around for a long time, so I don't think you're a troll. I think you really believe what you're saying. But I also think you've been taken in by extremism posing as modern day feminism. I believe in feminism and I believe in feminism still having a place and work to do in the modern world, but there is a growing backlash that includes both misogynist men, moderate ordinary men, and moderate ordinary women, to what is seen as modern feminism. Which is mostly imagined to be the kind your advocating.

Ever notice how mens rights movements seem to have a lot more to say on how women have wrecked everything than on mens rights? That's cause any real mens rights movement has been hijacked by misogynists. And the kind of viewponts you're repeating were formed by our version of them. Feminism should not be about how much men suck, it should be about bettering and improving society for women and girls so we and our daughters have equal rights and opportunity both in law and in social groupthink. We've made much progress on the former but not on the latter. And we won't if we're written off as a bunch of crazies. And I'm sorry but that's how normal people, moderate people, the ones who we're trying to convince, see the kind of stuff you wrote.

If you consider yourself a feminist, and I barely know you so only you can answer this, but if you do, then as one feminist to another I implore you to consider where you take your views from. There is real injustice in the world and real inequality, sexism, towards women, in the modern world. And if you wanna stop that, great, in that sense we're on the same team. But there are individuals, extremists who want to change the whole world to fit an extremely niche viewpoint that ultimately does nothing in advancing true equality, who are going around under the name of feminism, while their male counterparts do the same under the mens rights movement banner. And their actions serve to do nothing but increase inequality and prejudice. And to undermine the well intentioned moderate advocates who simply wish to use those banners to make the world a better place for other people suffering the same obsticles. And right now I think you've been listening too much to the wrong side.

Your original post contained generalized negative statements about men that would be unacceptable if men said them about women. Which makes them unacceptable for women to say about men too. Feminism is about women, and hating or deriding men is not about women. There is nothing wrong at all with you encouraging other women to express their boundaries. But there's also nothing sexist about a woman wanting to get over an issue she's having with "piv" sex for her boyfriend. So long as he's not unduly pressuring her, it's her choice to want to do something to benefit the man she loves for his enjoyment, and he should strive to do the same for her. That's what love is, putting someone else before everything, even yourself. And in a good loving relationship both partners strive to make the other one happy more than they do for themselves, and in doing so create a balance of mutual love, giving, and happiness.

We will never make progress through extremism because it's so easily dismissed and it alienates sympathetic moderates. It's why so many women refuse to identify as feminist like it's a dirty word. And I know exactly why, I used to be one of those women. Until I came to see how much injustice still exists against women and how being against that injustice is not wrong. And that I shouldn't let the people tarnishing the meaning of feminism win by refusing to use it as a label when it's true to what I believe. I'm also against sexism towards men, and misandery. Your post here contained elements of misandery, and it's not ok. You can't be a feminist, and a misanderist, and not be a hypocrite. You can make womens issues your primary focus, maybe your only focus. But discrimination or derogatory remarks about men, is not ok. It doesn't matter how much power they still have, or how equal the sexism is in society, that can all be reasons you focus on sexism against women, but none of it makes it suddenly ok to do the same sort of shit to men. Two wrongs don't make a right here. And neither does it matter whos been the victim longer or how much worse. None of it is ok.

If you're a feminist, you must also be against sexism towards men. You don't have to fight that battle too, that's your choice, but it does mean you can't go being sexist to men in ways youd never dream of being to women. It's hypocrisy, and sexism, both of which are wrong.

Think about what ive said. Even if first you go and come up with every argument you can think of to shoot me down and post it, once you've one that. Give some real thought to what ive said and if you can truly say no part of you feels it has merit. You don't need to admit defeat, you need not say anything. I don't need to know if I succeeded or won, I'd rather you really think about it and decide whatever you'll decide without ever knowing what you decided if it meant youd think about it honestly, from your heart and your head alone. Not to win an argument with me, not for anyone elses benefit but purely for you. If what you believe is right, then it will stand up to you being open and honest with yourself and thinking about the merits of what you believe considering what ive said. And I'm concerned that like most you'll be too preoccupied finding a way to disagree with me to actually put much thought into what ive said. That's how most people react in any situation like this. But it's not the path towards wisdom. It's blind defense of a faith.

Oh and of course there can be racism towards whites. Institutionalized or not, even if blacks have had it a billion times worse a billion times longer. One white person being hated for being white, or discriminated against for it, by even one person, it's still racism. If you favor one race, you discriminate against all the others. Hitler was all about 'affirmative action' for whites by another name. You favor any race, that disfavors the others, that inequality, and that's racism. All racism is racism and all racism is bad, all the time.
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Great post Jess. It is the heart of any cause to be able to self examine to stay true to the desired result. Ends never justify means in the real world.

This is probably the classiest request 'for the good of the cause' I've ever read. I don't think most extremists really understand how much damage they do to their cause. Often it seems they must be doing it on purpose in an attempt to undermine the real cause. Often being so impossible to even discuss it with they usually help the opposition solidify into less moderate opposition.

Thankfully with posts like yours it shines a light on the truth very succinctly.
 
Who you calling an extremist punk. "Radical feminisim" is a faction within feminism, it's not code for "Extremist feminism" like "Radical Islam" for example. Radical feminists fought for women to have the vote, and made sexual harrassment in the work place illegal. The whole second wave is radical feminism. Go and read a god damned book before you start spouting unfounded misrepresentstions.
 
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Libby said:
Who you calling an extremist punk. "Radical feminisim" is a faction within feminism, it's not code for "Extremist feminism" like "Radical Islam" for example. Radical feminists fought for women to have the vote, and made sexual harrassment in the work place illegal. The whole second wave is radical feminism. Go and read a god damned book before you start spouting unfounded misrepresentstions.
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LOL Sorry Libby not you or even directed at you. Was just a comment on Jess's post, I don't think she calls you an extremist either just uses the term.

As for good books if you can honestly recommend one that changed your life I'd love to read it.
 
As an introduction I'd recommend "Sexual Politics" by Kate Millet.
 
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