Very curious about this, can anyone help?

[Opiatehell85]

Hey,

i was addicted to opiates for three long years, decided to bite the bullet 7 weeks ago and go to my local drug clinic for help, I stabilised on 10mg of buprenophine and have been taking that dose now for 7 weeks, I feel great except for cravings, they're still a pain in the ass, but it's more mind over matter and I'm dealing with them. Anyway, what I wanna know is, am I still addicted to opiates? If I stopped taking the bupe now would I suffer withdrawal symptoms and if I did, then would the withdrawal be from the previous opiates I was addicted to or would it be from the bupe? It's probably a very stupid question, and I have checked search engines but can't seem to find much info, I know I can taper from bupe which I will be doing eventually but just out of curiosity I wanted to know what would happen if I just stopped. Thanks guys, please feel free to delete this if you can point me in the right direction of a similar post

 

[maggells]

Buprenorphine works as a partial agonist on opiod receptors. It saturates them to prevent other opioids from attaching. It is still artificially providing the hormonal changes that regular opioids did before, so yes you are still dependant, and without it you will still need extensive time to allow your neurochemistry to heal. It tends to raise your opiate tolerance considerably, even when no longer at blocking levels or completely discontinued. The half-life of 72hrs means longer, usually more intense withdrawals (5-7 days+) and sometimes lengthier PAWS symptoms. Do not stop it cold turkey at 10mg/day. You should definitely taper down as low as possible (i.e. less than 0.5mg/day) before attempting to stop, especially if you're still having strong opiate cravings. You would most likely be too tempted to use again with withdrawals that intense. Some users can successfully "jump off" at higher doses but you should know what that entails before considering it. I do recommend tapering sooner rather than later if that is your plan as the longer you are on it the harder it will be to taper and stop and the harder it will be for your body to readjust to life without a constant influx of opiates/bupe. And in your case the fact that you may need to utilize opiates for legitimate pain in the near future I would definitely want to lower soon so your tolerance is not through the roof.

 

[Cotcha Yankinov]

Yes you will still have to taper very slowly if you wish to do so. Good job so far though

 

[Opiatehell85]

Thanks for your replies, so I'm still addicted to opiates then I don't know why my key worker said that I'm not addicted to opiates anymore, she's give me a false sense of hope. I was curious tho about just stopping completely, I think it's because I haven't felt withdrawal for almost eight weeks then I think I'm invincible haha. I'll stick at it, it's nice not having to worry about obtaining opiates, not having to lie to my dr as to why I always want my script early etc etc, I haven't bothered my dr in weeks, I'm surprised she hasn't checked up on me as I'm usually there every week haha! Bupe is an odd drug, sometimes I feel a high from it, sometimes I don't, but I've found that it depends on the brand of drug the pharmacy gives me, if I get branded subutex I feel a high for example, and if I get activis buprenophine I don't feel anything, I asked pharmacist about this and he said other patients have said the same, and if I prefer a certain brand then I can request my rehab dr to put subutex only. But I'm not here to get high anymore, I'm here to get completely clean, I can't wait for the day I finish my detox, I just hope I never get back in this situation again. I'm blabbering on a big now, so I'll stop thanks for listening, this site is great when I need to speak with people in the same boat as me, I have one friend that's on bupe too but she abuses it and I don't really wanna take advice from her, and obviously no one else that I know understands as they haven't had an addiction before. It's a lonely life this addiction business !

 

[Cotcha Yankinov]

Well technically you're not addicted to opiates since "opiates" are things like heroin and morphine while "opoids" are just things that bind to the opoid receptor, so now you're just addicted to opoids But I do think that you will have an easier to withdrawing from bupe rather than real opiates, that you are having cravings I think is a sign that you are having little tiny bits of withdrawal and that your system is trying to return to normal, but like the above commenter said I would advise you to taper sooner rather than later, but you can taper as slow as you need to. Best of luck, stay strong

 

[justtakethat]

Ur still taking opiates/opioids. Im kind of wondering how u can even think ur not addicted when u say u feel high from it. The longer ur on it the worse it will be thats why u should withdrawal now. And would u really rather be addicted to some synthetic chemical than the natural plant? Its easier to stay dependant on bupe but if i had access i would most definetly wd from morphone or something. Also i would think the bupe is worse being more potent. These are all things you dont need to worry about when u put days inbetween use from the start

 

[Znegative]

Alright, this is kind of a complicated thing to explain and there's a lot of confusion about it.

Yes, you will suffer withdrawals, withdrawals from the buprenorphine. That being said I disagree with anyone who says that the withdrawals are more intense than short acting full agonists like heroin, they are not. They are longer for sure, but they are more mild. If you do a proper taper and drop off at like .125 you'll probably experience withdrawals but they'll be manageable, you might be uncomfortable for a few weeks but with the aid of some clonodine and gabapentin or some benzo's you could probably get through it relatively easy.

If you were taking pharms like hydrocodone or low dosages of oxycodone than yeah, buprenorphine may raise your tolerance, but if you were using high dosages of oxycodone or more potent painkillers or heroin, than its going to lower your tolerance, IME every time I tapered down super low to like 1-2 mg a day and would use heroin I could get incredibly, probably dangerously high on just 1 bag of mediocre heroin. If you had a really big habit, buprenorphine actually over time heals and eradicates extra receptors created by your opiate abuse at least thats whats been explained to me by many doctors (though sub doctors in truth usually know almost nothing about suboxone).

 

[Opiatehell85]

Hey thanks for the replies, I'm starting to understand a bit more. Just take that thanks for pointing out the obvious, of course I wouldn't be in this situation if I had breaks between doses, no point in worrying about it now as it's already done. And now I have to take bupe everyday so I can get on with my life. Also stopping bupe now while I'm still craving opiates isn't a good idea as it would destin me to failure when I've done so well. And no I wouldn't rather be addicted to a natural opiate, how wrong is your advice, I remember when I first posted on here three months ago looking for help, you were pretty mean to me then too. If u can't help me then please don't comment things that I already know. Anyway, yeah I'll be reducing soon, I'm not ready yet, clinic wanted to put my dosage up but I refused and said I'd keep trying to ignore cravings. I actually feel a bit shitty tonight, flu like symptoms so I think u might be right, this dosage isn't holding me. I'm seeing them again tomorrow so I will update, thanks for all ur kind advice xoxox

 

[Opiatehell85]

Alright, this is kind of a complicated thing to explain and there's a lot of confusion about it.

Yes, you will suffer withdrawals, withdrawals from the buprenorphine. That being said I disagree with anyone who says that the withdrawals are more intense than short acting full agonists like heroin, they are not. They are longer for sure, but they are more mild. If you do a proper taper and drop off at like .125 you'll probably experience withdrawals but they'll be manageable, you might be uncomfortable for a few weeks but with the aid of some clonodine and gabapentin or some benzo's you could probably get through it relatively easy.

If you were taking pharms like hydrocodone or low dosages of oxycodone than yeah, buprenorphine may raise your tolerance, but if you were using high dosages of oxycodone or more potent painkillers or heroin, than its going to lower your tolerance, IME every time I tapered down super low to like 1-2 mg a day and would use heroin I could get incredibly, probably dangerously high on just 1 bag of mediocre heroin. If you had a really big habit, buprenorphine actually over time heals and eradicates extra receptors created by your opiate abuse at least thats whats been explained to me by many doctors (though sub doctors in truth usually know almost nothing about suboxone).

Yeah it was just mainly pharm opiates, morphine, dhc, codeine etc. So probably will raise my tolerance but I'm not too bothered about that , I do eventually want to be opiate free and stay that way unless I need to take as a medical emergency.

 

[Opiatehell85]

Well technically you're not addicted to opiates since "opiates" are things like heroin and morphine while "opoids" are just things that bind to the opoid receptor, so now you're just addicted to opoids But I do think that you will have an easier to withdrawing from bupe rather than real opiates, that you are having cravings I think is a sign that you are having little tiny bits of withdrawal and that your system is trying to return to normal, but like the above commenter said I would advise you to taper sooner rather than later, but you can taper as slow as you need to. Best of luck, stay strong

Yeah I definitely think I'm experiencing some withdrawal, especially today, I can't put my finger on what's up with me, but I'm cold, runny nose, headaches, upset tummy and I feel like something's missing, I'm really frustrated actually. I'll keep on going, I've come this far, I can't lower my dosage just yet as I don't wanna set myself up for failure, I don't want to be feeling so rubbish that I go and find a script for some dhc or morphine. Really does suck this addiction business, I have been so stupid, but when u are in pain, then get a tolerance, you don't even realise what your doing until it's too late.

 

[maxload]

If you want to be clean you will have to face some form of withdrawal eventually. If it was easy this forum would not exist.

Even small tapers will endure symptoms you have described, but at least it is not as bad as stopping cold turkey.

Personally I would not increase your current dose, rather try and stabilise where you are then make a plan to taper and stick with it. You will have good days and tough weeks, but no body said this would be easy. Embrace the support network of your clinic but keep your eyes on the goal.

Be prepared for your life not to perfect even once you are clean. The mistake many addicts make is believing all their problems steam from their addiction. You will still feel like shit, you will feel like your life is missing. Something, you'll even try and convince yourself that things will be better if you used just one more time, but this is only the junky in you making you its bitch. Stay strong and stay on your path.

 

[Opiatehell85]

If you want to be clean you will have to face some form of withdrawal eventually. If it was easy this forum would not exist.

Even small tapers will endure symptoms you have described, but at least it is not as bad as stopping cold turkey.

Personally I would not increase your current dose, rather try and stabilise where you are then make a plan to taper and stick with it. You will have good days and tough weeks, but no body said this would be easy. Embrace the support network of your clinic but keep your eyes on the goal.

Be prepared for your life not to perfect even once you are clean. The mistake many addicts make is believing all their problems steam from their addiction. You will still feel like shit, you will feel like your life is missing. Something, you'll even try and convince yourself that things will be better if you used just one more time, but this is only the junky in you making you its bitch. Stay strong and stay on your path.

Thankyou, yes this is true. I did think my life would be better without the painkillers, but it's not, it's pretty shit. Maybe that's what's up with me, I've realised that the drugs didn't take my problems away, and now that I don't have them, I have to deal with it all on my own. Yeah I wish it was easy, imagine life without withdrawal, wouldn't it be amazing!? Im gonna call my clinic today and try and get a bit more support, think that's what I need, I will try not to increase my dosage as I've been stable for four weeks now!

 

[Keif' Richards]

Opiatehell, in your original post you claimed your issues were mind over matter. In your latest post, you indicate that your life "is shit". That's quite the degradation in a short while. My point is, getting "clean" is a roller coaster. It's a real bitch and you need to learn how to control your negativity as best you can. I apologize for the cliche, but the negativity is what's going to bring you back Opiates. Trust me, if you're like any other Opioid-fiend out there, you're life is not better with Opioids, you're life is Opioids with Opioids.

Being on Buprenorphine Maint. is clean in my and every logical person's eyes. There is little potential for positive effect, outside of the intended therapeutic effects. Don't let anyone tell you differently. "I'm not really clean anyway; still a junkie" etc. is another attitude that will bring you back to use. Be proud of yourself and try to gain some perspective on the progress you're making.

Now, the question of stability. If you're cravings are intense enough to distract you from accomplishing your daily life, then maybe a slight dosage raise is in order. You will experience some cravings, that's practically inevitable. The key here is to keep these cravings at a manageable level. If you need to raise your dosage, it's not a sign of personal weakness or ineffectiveness of the medication. Just keep your eyes on the prize and take what you need from the Bupe and leave what you don't i.e. keep your dose low if possible and don't remain on it any longer than what is needed.

For reference's sake. Buprenorphine Maint. patients often complain of a more protracted, naggging withdrawal than with short-acting Opioids or even Methadone for that matter. Most MMT/BMT people that I have known just get broken by lack of sleep and anxiety during withdrawal and make it out to be a little more intense that in truly is; myself included.

 

[Opiatehell85]

Opiatehell, in your original post you claimed your issues were mind over matter. In your latest post, you indicate that your life "is shit". That's quite the degradation in a short while. My point is, getting "clean" is a roller coaster. It's a real bitch and you need to learn how to control your negativity as best you can. I apologize for the cliche, but the negativity is what's going to bring you back Opiates. Trust me, if you're like any other Opioid-fiend out there, you're life is not better with Opioids, you're life is Opioids with Opioids.

Being on Buprenorphine Maint. is clean in my and every logical person's eyes. There is little potential for positive effect, outside of the intended therapeutic effects. Don't let anyone tell you differently. "I'm not really clean anyway; still a junkie" etc. is another attitude that will bring you back to use. Be proud of yourself and try to gain some perspective on the progress you're making.

Now, the question of stability. If you're cravings are intense enough to distract you from accomplishing your daily life, then maybe a slight dosage raise is in order. You will experience some cravings, that's practically inevitable. The key here is to keep these cravings at a manageable level. If you need to raise your dosage, it's not a sign of personal weakness or ineffectiveness of the medication. Just keep your eyes on the prize and take what you need from the Bupe and leave what you don't i.e. keep your dose low if possible and don't remain on it any longer than what is needed.

For reference's sake. Buprenorphine Maint. patients often complain of a more protracted, naggging withdrawal than with short-acting Opioids or even Methadone for that matter. Most MMT/BMT people that I have known just get broken by lack of sleep and anxiety during withdrawal and make it out to be a little more intense that in truly is; myself included.

Youre spot on, it really is a roller coaster , and looking back at my posts my mind and mood changes so much each time, see today, life is ok. Where yesterday it was shit, tomorrow I'm hoping for great! Yes I'm gonna increase my dosage Monday if I can't control my cravings, as I've said before I don't wanna fail. My key worker keeps telling me I'm clean, it's me who tells myself I'm still an addict, I still definitely have addict traits, I still browse the website where I obtained my painkillers from, and I still get butterflies when I see a delivery van that used to drop them off, I still almost go into every pharmacy in town, I'm not used to walking past them. I'm even dreaming about painkillers. I don't know what the hell is up with me to be honest, my heads fucked!! I suppose it takes time for the mind to heal, and if it was easy, everyone would be an addict. Can u recommend anything for sleep? I've ordered some promethazine, I'm awaiting them to arrive.

 

[justtakethat]

Youre spot on, it really is a roller coaster , and looking back at my posts my mind and mood changes so much each time, see today, life is ok. Where yesterday it was shit, tomorrow I'm hoping for great! Yes I'm gonna increase my dosage Monday if I can't control my cravings, as I've said before I don't wanna fail. My key worker keeps telling me I'm clean, it's me who tells myself I'm still an addict, I still definitely have addict traits, I still browse the website where I obtained my painkillers from, and I still get butterflies when I see a delivery van that used to drop them off, I still almost go into every pharmacy in town, I'm not used to walking past them. I'm even dreaming about painkillers. I don't know what the hell is up with me to be honest, my heads fucked!! I suppose it takes time for the mind to heal, and if it was easy, everyone would be an addict. Can u recommend anything for sleep? I've ordered some promethazine, I'm awaiting them to arrive.

Promethazine will increase yoyr nods and opiate high yes. I dont know when opiate cravings ever just went away... How could u decide to jusy forget the feeling and never even want to use again even if u dont. Id just stp prolonging the inevitable and get it out of the way now.

 

[maggells]

I know you've already learned to tune out justtakethat and his terrible advice. Please anyone else reading this, getting and staying clean from opiates DESPITE cravings is always worthwhile. Just because you're having a hard time does not mean you should just throw all your hard work away and go back to using. You are doing fantastic sticking with your program and working through these difficult cravings and feelings. The cravings usually never completely leave but with time and work they get fewer and far between. You can do this.

 

[manboychef]

OP: Here is some food for though; Addiction and dependence are two different things. They do go hand in hand when it comes to opiates though. Right now while you are dependent on Bupe, you can work through the problems that caused your addiction in the first place. When I was on bupe my emotions were all over the place and I had a hard time controlling my urges which led me to active use again. Keep working on your problems with the help of therapists, drug counselors, family etc. This will help you develop a support network and when you do take the plunge you will come out better in the end.

You should check out Sober Living forum. There are a lot of people there that have been through, or are going through the changes you are experiencing.

@Justtakethat: Growing up I was told that if I did not have something worthwhile to add to a conversation then I should be quiet and listen. Someday I hope you understand why this is a valuable skill.

 

[Opiatehell85]

Thanks the two of you, I'm trying my best and I will stick to my program. People like justtakethat make me even more determined, he's give me a hard time from my first post on here since I was first trying to stop opiates, he's a complete and utter dickhead.

anyway, I'll keep u all updated, although I will not be failing due to stupid cravings. I might have to higher my bupe intake a little but I'll get there. Yes I am all over the place at the moment, some days are great, some not so great but I've three beautiful children to do this for

 

[crzydiamond]

I have said this before, but it bears repeating

A craving is just that--a craving. A fleeting several second intense desire. They are completely normal and they lessen in intensity and frequency the longer one stays off the drug.


The problem with cravings isn't the craving itself. It is that we *feed* the craving. Instead of it just being a passing thought, we focus on it. The craving sets off a whole thought track about a good time you used, how good you felt, etc.

The *only* power a craving has comes from the person feeding it. And the more one feeds it the stronger it becomes, the more often they come, until that person basically sets themselves up to use

The best way to deal with a craving is to not focus on it. Recognize it for what it is. If you have a thought that some dope might feel great today don't keep going on with how good it'll feel to nod and all the little details. Kind of "change the subject" in your mind. Sort of like what I did with my son when he was a toddler and focused on something he couldn't have (like the $50 toy he HAD to have.."I want it! I want it!") Distraction is a great tool.

And if you find yourself caught up in a craving--force yourself to think of what comes after. The withdrawal. The being broke and sick and desperate and miserable.

But again--to sum up my point--cravings only have the power you give to them when you feed them.

 

[Opiatehell85]

Thank you!! I will bear this in mind next time I'm craving, you're right, it is just a craving, it can't harm me or send me into withdrawal. The mind is a horrible thing, and mine is playing games. I'll get through it I'm quite strong willed, but have found this week to be awful. Thanks so much for all your lovely help. I will update as regular as I can. I won't give in