valium taper question

[3dmusic]

I am tapering valium, gone from 75mg to 70mg, and first 5mg cut was quite painful.
It takes quite a while for symptoms to show.

Please be gentle with me as I am very mentally fragile and easily upset and am worried that an article I read full of scientific jargon means that instead of 70mg valium in my body, I might have multiple amounts, and need reassurance that this is just me worrying, but I have no scientific knowledge so I cannot determine if the valium in my body has multiplied after reading the articles linked below. Thanks in advance to anyone who reads these articles and clarifies things for me.

For the last month, about 4-5 days a week, I have been doing something very foolish, but have stopped now, so, please be gentle with me, as I am very mentally fragile and easily upset, and I have stopped what I was doing 3 days ago, and feel physically fine.

I don't use codeine enough to get addicted, just to lift my mood, because I am fed up of everyday being miserable.

I was taking five paracetamol tablets at once, as they had codeine in, that's 2,500-3g paracetamol at once, and heard that it can have a paradoxical effect on cyp3a4.

This article seems to say that paracetamol in large quantities can be a potent inhibitor of cyp3a4, and this has got me really worried that instead of my current dose of 70mg diazepam, there could be multiple amounts of this floating around in my body until it gets eliminated, and I am worrried that when it does, I am going to feel a whole lot worse.

I cannot understand the scientific jargon, I want to work out if there is going to be multiple amounts of valium floating around in my body.
Here is a brief article http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11811955, and here is a more detailed article, http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1742-7843.2004.pto940406.x/full

I read a more indepth article here http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1742-7843.2004.pto940406.x/full
and it made me worry that I could have multiple amounts of valium in my system instead of the 70mg I currently am tapering from.

I tried to read the numbers towards the bottom section of the page but I am not familiar with chemistry, and as it takes 16-18 days for symptoms to manifest I am worried that in 13-15 days time (I stopped taking this amount of paracetamol) I am going to ve very ill indeed.

Can anyone familiar with chemistry offer me some reassurance please that I do not have multiples of 70mg valium in my body?
thanks in advance

 

[Solipsis]

Paracetamol is not a real inhibitor of CYP3A4, I believe, but it is metabolized by it just like many other drugs including diazepam and codeine. If you take a lot of it, it will occupy CYP3A4 so its ability to metabolize other drugs in your system is more limited.
Limiting codeine metabolism is not a great idea but its CYP2D6 that turns it into morphine, so that should be fine.

True: diazepam accumulates in your body, but it is normal for the drug. It has a very long halflife and produces metabolites that are also active with even longer halflife. For this reason you build up pretty steady blood plasma levels and when you taper the levels should go down relatively smoothly because it takes so long.
Inhibiting CYP3A4, even by just competition from another substrate like paracetamol and codeine rather than actually serious inhibitors... will limit diazepam turning into nordazepam but they are both active and it will take quite a long time for levels to drop anyway, so it shouldn't cause extreme fluctuations.

So, you do have a lot more than 70mg valiium in your blood if you take that amount daily but this is normal because it stays in your body so long so it stacks up. You have grown tolerant to it however, and this is not any reason whatsoever to worry. Yes, inhibiting metabolism will cause a bit more to stack up, but still you have to consider that relative to the amount that is stacked up anyway because it just accumulates.

The paradoxical effect with CYP3A4 means that on the one hand paracetamol limits the 3A4 available to break down other drugs, but on the other hand the 3A4 that IS available is induced and works harder. If it works harder it will break down diazepam so you would accidentally taper a little quicker than you meant to. I have no idea what the net effect is of this paradoxical action (it may very well depend on factors like the amount of paracetamol). I would expect a small delay in actually feeling fluctuating levels of benzos in your blood but it won't take weeks before suddenly noticing peaks and dips in your blood levels.

Those weeks time before feeling symptoms, where are you quoting that from? Proteolysis doesn't seem to have to do much with any of this.

It's not smart to take a lot of paracetamol and codeine in your situation as it will complicate your tapering in several ways. It's not likely to be serious very quickly (although combining benzos and opioids is a dosage-sensitive business that can go wrong, so be careful), I think there is relatively much more harm in the fact that it causes fluctuations that can make the taper less smooth, and taking something like codeine to suppress the shittiness of tapering benzos may be postponing the inevitable and complicating it.
Trust me, you're better off to go through it and don't make it anymore complex (with ups and downs etc) - get it over with. I've tapered diazepam over about 8 weeks though not from 70 mg. It got help and stayed clean for the rest which made it more manageable, but the last bits (and a little while before that) were difficult in a particular way.
In my experience at higher dosages the first steps down can be relatively bigger compared to the last bits. Tapering too quickly is known to be a very bad idea, so I guess you're on a fair path - just hope you are getting the proper guidance.

 

[3dmusic]

Paracetamol is not a real inhibitor of CYP3A4, I believe, but it is metabolized by it just like many other drugs including diazepam and codeine. If you take a lot of it, it will occupy CYP3A4 so its ability to metabolize other drugs in your system is more limited.
Limiting codeine metabolism is not a great idea but its CYP2D6 that turns it into morphine, so that should be fine.

True: diazepam accumulates in your body, but it is normal for the drug. It has a very long halflife and produces metabolites that are also active with even longer halflife. For this reason you build up pretty steady blood plasma levels and when you taper the levels should go down relatively smoothly because it takes so long.
Inhibiting CYP3A4, even by just competition from another substrate like paracetamol and codeine rather than actually serious inhibitors... will limit diazepam turning into nordazepam but they are both active and it will take quite a long time for levels to drop anyway, so it shouldn't cause extreme fluctuations.

So, you do have a lot more than 70mg valiium in your blood if you take that amount daily but this is normal because it stays in your body so long so it stacks up. You have grown tolerant to it however, and this is not any reason whatsoever to worry. Yes, inhibiting metabolism will cause a bit more to stack up, but still you have to consider that relative to the amount that is stacked up anyway because it just accumulates.

The paradoxical effect with CYP3A4 means that on the one hand paracetamol limits the 3A4 available to break down other drugs, but on the other hand the 3A4 that IS available is induced and works harder. If it works harder it will break down diazepam so you would accidentally taper a little quicker than you meant to. I have no idea what the net effect is of this paradoxical action (it may very well depend on factors like the amount of paracetamol). I would expect a small delay in actually feeling fluctuating levels of benzos in your blood but it won't take weeks before suddenly noticing peaks and dips in your blood levels.

Those weeks time before feeling symptoms, where are you quoting that from? Proteolysis doesn't seem to have to do much with any of this.

It's not smart to take a lot of paracetamol and codeine in your situation as it will complicate your tapering in several ways. It's not likely to be serious very quickly (although combining benzos and opioids is a dosage-sensitive business that can go wrong, so be careful), I think there is relatively much more harm in the fact that it causes fluctuations that can make the taper less smooth, and taking something like codeine to suppress the shittiness of tapering benzos may be postponing the inevitable and complicating it.
Trust me, you're better off to go through it and don't make it anymore complex (with ups and downs etc) - get it over with. I've tapered diazepam over about 8 weeks though not from 70 mg. It got help and stayed clean for the rest which made it more manageable, but the last bits (and a little while before that) were difficult in a particular way.
In my experience at higher dosages the first steps down can be relatively bigger compared to the last bits. Tapering too quickly is known to be a very bad idea, so I guess you're on a fair path - just hope you are getting the proper guidance.

Hi Solipsis

Thank you for your post, I read it, but still require some clarification and hope you dont mind.
I did a valium taper from 15mg a few years ago and it used to take 16-18 days to feel anything after a cut.
Also, when I recently cut from 75mg to 70mg a month ago, it took 16-18 days to feel the cut, I got worse IBS but it is stabilising now.
I will heed the opiate benzo thing and be careful, I dont do strong opiates, never liked the high.
Do you mind if I ask more questions please?
I interpreted the paradoxical effect to mean that, as I was taking 2,500-3g in one go, I feared that the article meant that multiple amounts of valium would be in my system, is this true.
I want to keep on cutting, I want off this stuff.
When you say that inhibition amounts stack up, does potent inhibition mean multiple amounts of diazepam in my bloodstream?
I ask cos I smoke cannabis and it is a potent inhibitor of two enzymes that diazepam is metabolized by?

 

[Solipsis]

- there are multiple amounts of valium in your system anyway because it stacks up, I guess you are wondering if taking paracetamol resulted in even more stacking up. Better to think of it as a blood concentration of diazepam that you built up over time. Tapering is meant to smoothly drop that concentration (which is not simply 70 mg at any given time). Messing with enzymes can mean that you build up the diazepam a bit more or less.

- vis. paradoxical effects: paracetamol causes some inhibition, the result is: your diazepam gets backed up a bit more and your blood levels temporarily don't drop as fast.
the paradoxical effect is the fact that there is not only inhibition but also induction, the result is: your diazepam gets broken down a bit faster and your blood levels temporarily drop a bit more.

So your blood levels both rise and drop from these effects which to some extent may cancel each other out, but one effect may be stronger than the other so you may have a little peak or dip in your blood concentrations. It's very hard to say if such a peak or dip is significant compared to the amounts of diazepam you are taking to sustain your blood levels.

Messing with the enzymes causing peaks and dips is not good for the stability of your taper, but the paradoxical effect may have helped cancel it out if anything.

I would keep a close eye on taking any other drug during the taper, not only small peaks and dips are an issue but also what they do for your anxiety and if you get rebound anxiety. Such disturbances may prove to add to the difficult symptoms of tapering even if they temporarily give relief.
Panicking about any of this (I especially wouldn't worry unusually about the matter but instead be more concerned about disrupting your taper in general) may also be more of an issue than the matter itself.

And yes cannabis inhibits 3A4.

 

[3dmusic]

hi and thanks

- there are multiple amounts of valium in your system anyway because it stacks up, I guess you are wondering if taking paracetamol resulted in even more stacking up.

Yes, definitely, together with the cannabis.
The articles I linked are what caused me to worry about the acetaminophen making it stack up even more, and I cannotn make sense of all the numbers to see just how much extra valium is in my system.
So, as I said, it takes around 2-3wks for wd symptoms to show from past experiene of val tapers, I am worried that in a couple of weeks, I will be bedridden with much worse withdrawal, as I stopped taking the acetaminophen 2-3g all at once, now.
I'm worried my taper has been badly disrupted.
Does 'potent inhibitor' mean that the amount of extra valium apart from the normal stack, could be multiples of my dose?

the paradoxical effect is the fact that there is not only inhibition but also induction, the result is: your diazepam gets broken down a bit faster and your blood levels temporarily drop a bit more.

thanks, this reassures me

I will keep a close eye on taking any other drug during the taper. Could you reassure me regarding the first part of this post please, much appreciated.

 

[Solipsis]

hi and thanks

Yes, definitely, together with the cannabis.
The articles I linked are what caused me to worry about the acetaminophen making it stack up even more, and I cannotn make sense of all the numbers to see just how much extra valium is in my system.

I'd say the paradoxical effect may mean it partially cancels itself out but it is also possible there is more induction of the enzyme and higher metabolism of diazepam so less stacking. In any case paracetamol is not a "potent inhibitor" as far as I know, which would mean that it binds to the enzyme in an unusual way and doesn't let go well, or that it inactivates enzymes etc. All it seems to do is occupy them as it is broken down.

The rest of what I saw about the articles seemed to involve a whole lot of stuff that doesn't seem relevant to you, so I'd especially not worry about 'scary articles'.

So, as I said, it takes around 2-3wks for wd symptoms to show from past experiene of val tapers, I am worried that in a couple of weeks, I will be bedridden with much worse withdrawal, as I stopped taking the acetaminophen 2-3g all at once, now.
I'm worried my taper has been badly disrupted.
Does 'potent inhibitor' mean that the amount of extra valium apart from the normal stack, could be multiples of my dose?

Seems very hard to say, I personally very much doubt that it would be anything like taking or stacking the equivalent of multiple 70 or so mg doses as you would definitely feel that, and not in 3 weeks either. Even if it takes so long for you for the blood levels to drop off, it doesn't take so long to get effect from a dose or redose taken does it?

Anyway if the paradoxical effect (= enzyme induction) is really significant, you would expect the opposite: that you have unknowingly metabolized more diazepam quicker so it is actually like you took less than you are actually taking.
Since you started taking paracetamol and codeine about 4-5 weeks ago according to you, by now you have passed that 2-3 week window and would have been noticing more withdrawals for about 2 weeks now.

In all fairness, you do report the 5 mg drop from 75 to 70 to be problematic, which is not something I would predict. Like I said, the first drop in dosage if done reasonably slowly was for me not that big a deal. It's the last 5 mg that made much more of a difference. But then again, what also might have necked me may have been the same delay you report... and the taper might have been catching up with me strongly.

The role of CYP3A4 in paracetamol metabolism is controversial anyway, research shows results ranging from not really playing a role to playing a key role in oxidation... so question is if it's even much of an inhibitor to begin with. Still, high dosages seem to do cause inhibition.

thanks, this reassures me

I will keep a close eye on taking any other drug during the taper. Could you reassure me regarding the first part of this post please, much appreciated.

I can reassure but not justify: take absolutely as little cannabis or any other drug as you possibly can during the taper. You will be glad you got it over with once all is said and done, so see suffering as a good sign that you are actually doing the work instead of holding it off.

Of course there are limits, for example I am tapering pregabaline and was feeling generally so terrible (also due to other reasons) that I am now pausing it... but still I consider benzos much more serious and getting off them was one of the most important things for me to do in my life.

 

[3dmusic]

Hi Solipsis and thanks for getting back to me.
At the end of this post is some valuable help for your pregabalin taper, as I am doing a successful one right now. Its to return the favour and I hope it works as well for you as it does for me.
I really appreciate your effort and help, I'm still a bit confused cos you said high doses cause inhibition, what do you mean by high doses, pls see below.

The role of CYP3A4 in paracetamol metabolism is controversial anyway, research shows results ranging from not really playing a role to playing a key role in oxidation... so question is if it's even much of an inhibitor to begin with. Still, high dosages seem to do cause inhibition.

This is what worries me, when you say high dosages seem to do cause inhibition, does that mean that my 2-3g could cause inhibition?

Since you started taking paracetamol and codeine about 4-5 weeks ago according to you, by now you have passed that 2-3 week window and would have been noticing more withdrawals for about 2 weeks now.

Sorry I didnt make myself clear, I only stopped takinng 2-3g of acetaminophen 3 days ago, so I still do have tense and anxious waiting time.

I'd say the paradoxical effect may mean it partially cancels itself out but it is also possible there is more induction of the enzyme and higher metabolism of diazepam so less stacking.

I really hope so, I hate those, 'wait and see' type things, when it comes to things like this or anything negative.

In any case paracetamol is not a "potent inhibitor" as far as I know, which would mean that it binds to the enzyme in an unusual way and doesn't let go well, or that it inactivates enzymes etc. All it seems to do is occupy them as it is broken down.

I cant see paracetamol as a potent inhibitor, but the articles I read made me worry that high doseages like 2-3g can paradoxically, become inhibitors but i couldnt tell how potent.

The rest of what I saw about the articles seemed to involve a whole lot of stuff that doesn't seem relevant to you, so I'd especially not worry about 'scary articles'.

thank you

Seems very hard to say, I personally very much doubt that it would be anything like taking or stacking the equivalent of multiple 70 or so mg doses as you would definitely feel that, and not in 3 weeks either. Even if it takes so long for you for the blood levels to drop off, it doesn't take so long to get effect from a dose or redose taken does it?

I still get anxiety even though I am on 70mg and the 5mg drop was difficult, dunno why. I was taking zopiclone from an online pharmacy, but an online friend did a urine test on it 22hrs after taking it to determine if there was some benzo in it instead of zopiclone, and the test came back negative. The online friend is familiar with xanax etc.

Anyway if the paradoxical effect (= enzyme induction) is really significant, you would expect the opposite: that you have unknowingly metabolized more diazepam quicker so it is actually like you took less than you are actually taking.

This would be good, because, now that I have stopped 3 days ago taking paracetamol in large amounts, I can hope to start feeling better.
Less induction, more valium.

In all fairness, you do report the 5 mg drop from 75 to 70 to be problematic, which is not something I would predict.

I didnt mention this at the time, cos I didnt think it was relevant, to the subject, but I spent a couple of periods of weeks on 40mg, the first period was a mathematical error when crossing from zopiclone to valium, and the second was because the supplier warned me not to take anywhere near 75mg as his valls were strong and would bump up my tolerance, but they weren't as strong, or didn't feel as strong, so my symptoms were not covered. Hopefullly, I am stabilising now.

To help you, I'm tapering pregab and find the easiest way is to dose 4 times a day and cut daily small amount. At xmas I was on 600mg, cutting 5mg a day, until I got the telltale signature withdrawl headache that told me to reduce my cut, so I reduced it to 4mg, then 3mg now 2mg and am now on 140mg pregab and no wds,the headache is always the first sign of pregab withdrawawl for me. I use a marked syringe and dissolve the pregab in water.

 

[Solipsis]

Hi Solipsis and thanks for getting back to me.
At the end of this post is some valuable help for your pregabalin taper, as I am doing a successful one right now. Its to return the favour and I hope it works as well for you as it does for me.
I really appreciate your effort and help, I'm still a bit confused cos you said high doses cause inhibition, what do you mean by high doses, pls see below.

This is what worries me, when you say high dosages seem to do cause inhibition, does that mean that my 2-3g could cause inhibition?
/QUOTE]

Inhibition? It probably does, that is not the question, the question is whether it's very trivial or serious. Trivial, normal inhibition is likely to some extent but I doubt it's serious.

Sorry I didnt make myself clear, I only stopped takinng 2-3g of acetaminophen 3 days ago, so I still do have tense and anxious waiting time.

That was clear. What I tried to explain is that if there was induction, the opposite of inhibition... you might have gotten less effect from your diazepam. This would have started with the paracetamol if the paradoxical effect is significant, so 4-5 weeks ago. After 2-3 weeks you would notice this (according to you), so you would have been feeling extra tense for about 2 weeks is the logic.

All the while, the codeine would still be a mild inhibitor.

I really hope so, I hate those, 'wait and see' type things, when it comes to things like this or anything negative.


I cant see paracetamol as a potent inhibitor, but the articles I read made me worry that high doseages like 2-3g can paradoxically, become inhibitors but i couldnt tell how potent.

No, if it acts paradoxically then it does not become an inhibitor. It IS an inhibitor (but probably mild, or less mild at higher dosage). If there is paradoxical, opposite effect then it would do the opposite of inhibiting (limiting enzyme effect), which is inducing (potentiating enzymatic activity).

thank you

I still get anxiety even though I am on 70mg and the 5mg drop was difficult, dunno why. I was taking zopiclone from an online pharmacy, but an online friend did a urine test on it 22hrs after taking it to determine if there was some benzo in it instead of zopiclone, and the test came back negative. The online friend is familiar with xanax etc.


This would be good, because, now that I have stopped 3 days ago taking paracetamol in large amounts, I can hope to start feeling better.
Less induction, more valium.

I didnt mention this at the time, cos I didnt think it was relevant, to the subject, but I spent a couple of periods of weeks on 40mg, the first period was a mathematical error when crossing from zopiclone to valium, and the second was because the supplier warned me not to take anywhere near 75mg as his valls were strong and would bump up my tolerance, but they weren't as strong, or didn't feel as strong, so my symptoms were not covered. Hopefullly, I am stabilising now.

To help you, I'm tapering pregab and find the easiest way is to dose 4 times a day and cut daily small amount. At xmas I was on 600mg, cutting 5mg a day, until I got the telltale signature withdrawl headache that told me to reduce my cut, so I reduced it to 4mg, then 3mg now 2mg and am now on 140mg pregab and no wds,the headache is always the first sign of pregab withdrawawl for me. I use a marked syringe and dissolve the pregab in water.

I haven't figured out with my shrink to start measuring partial doses, the smallest capsules I have are 75 mg. But I only really took 225-300 mg max, not 600. Never got headaches. It would be unusual if I had to measure out partial doses myself. I have a milligram scale so I don't need the syringe, but that is normally not the way to do things. Normally a pharmacist provides smaller doses.

I'm at about 75-150 mg now. I try to take as little as possible but unfortunately some days I can completely forget and other days I take 150 mg or more because I am mostly taking so little at the moment, and try to compensate. So I will stick at 75 mg daily now, and maybe see if I can get less potent capsules to finish the taper.

thanks

Zopiclone must be a bitch, I used to have some pure zopiclone although it is almost completely gone now, I used it at fair dosages and only very occasionally... it is not really safer than benzos, just more selective in action. It's good that you stop using Z-drugs and benzos.

 

[3dmusic]

Could I have read the articles about high concentrations of paracetamol wrong?

Hi Solipsis and thanks for getting back to me.
At the end of this post is some valuable help for your pregabalin taper, as I am doing a successful one right now. Its to return the favour and I hope it works as well for you as it does for me.
I really appreciate your effort and help, I'm still a bit confused cos you said high doses cause inhibition, what do you mean by high doses, pls see below.

This is what worries me, when you say high dosages seem to do cause inhibition, does that mean that my 2-3g could cause inhibition?
/QUOTE]

Inhibition? It probably does, that is not the question, the question is whether it's very trivial or serious. Trivial, normal inhibition is likely to some extent but I doubt it's serious.



That was clear. What I tried to explain is that if there was induction, the opposite of inhibition... you might have gotten less effect from your diazepam. This would have started with the paracetamol if the paradoxical effect is significant, so 4-5 weeks ago. After 2-3 weeks you would notice this (according to you), so you would have been feeling extra tense for about 2 weeks is the logic.

All the while, the codeine would still be a mild inhibitor.



No, if it acts paradoxically then it does not become an inhibitor. It IS an inhibitor (but probably mild, or less mild at higher dosage). If there is paradoxical, opposite effect then it would do the opposite of inhibiting (limiting enzyme effect), which is inducing (potentiating enzymatic activity).



I haven't figured out with my shrink to start measuring partial doses, the smallest capsules I have are 75 mg. But I only really took 225-300 mg max, not 600. Never got headaches. It would be unusual if I had to measure out partial doses myself. I have a milligram scale so I don't need the syringe, but that is normally not the way to do things. Normally a pharmacist provides smaller doses.

I'm at about 75-150 mg now. I try to take as little as possible but unfortunately some days I can completely forget and other days I take 150 mg or more because I am mostly taking so little at the moment, and try to compensate. So I will stick at 75 mg daily now, and maybe see if I can get less potent capsules to finish the taper.

thanks

Zopiclone must be a bitch, I used to have some pure zopiclone although it is almost completely gone now, I used it at fair dosages and only very occasionally... it is not really safer than benzos, just more selective in action. It's good that you stop using Z-drugs and benzos.

Hi Solipsis

I read the article to show paracetamol as a substrate, metabolised by cyp3a4, and large amounts to paradoxically act as inhibitors, did I read it wrong?
There is a chance I could have done as I am not a chemist.
Best of luck with your pregab taper.

 

[JahSEEuS]

I understand that while undergoing this sort of taper it is best to stay away from all other substances. But, I don't see how cannabis would be detrimental to a valium taper. Maybe slightly more anxiety? But will certainly help w/ any physical effects / IBS

 

[Solipsis]

Hi Solipsis

I read the article to show paracetamol as a substrate, metabolised by cyp3a4, and large amounts to paradoxically act as inhibitors, did I read it wrong?
There is a chance I could have done as I am not a chemist.
Best of luck with your pregab taper.

And at lower doses as inducer. The paradox is that inducers act opposite of inhibitors. So I guess that since it is dose-dependent you only see it 'cancelling' out at moderate doses somewhere in between those low and high doses: such a point would have to exist where the induction and inhibition are equivalent.
Question is what is considered a high dose here, if we can assume that 2000-3000 mg being on the high end of the dosage range not toxic for humans can be compared to what they call high doses applied to cells experimentally.

 

[Mushwood]

About the weed, I've tapered diazepam with and without it. For me it definitely made my anxiety better (eventually) when I didn't smoke it ...it did make other things harder like sleeping, but worth the trade.

....and now after kicking the benzos I can smoke it again without problems!

 

[3dmusic]

I understand that while undergoing this sort of taper it is best to stay away from all other substances. But, I don't see how cannabis would be detrimental to a valium taper. Maybe slightly more anxiety? But will certainly help w/ any physical effects / IBS

It's an inducer of enzymes cyp1a2 which valium uses to metabolise, so clears out valium quicker, its also an inhibitor of cyp3A4 another of those enzymes val uses, so messing about with inhibitors and inducers does affect some peoples tapers. I was ok in my last taper, but more worried as this dose is 5 times the size of last one nearly

 

[3dmusic]

About the weed, I've tapered diazepam with and without it. For me it definitely made my anxiety better (eventually) when I didn't smoke it ...it did make other things harder like sleeping, but worth the trade.

....and now after kicking the benzos I can smoke it again without problems!

What problems did cannabis cause you while tapering diazepam?
Why was it worth the trade, insomnia is hell.?

 

[Mushwood]

What problems did cannabis cause you while tapering diazepam?
Why was it worth the trade, insomnia is hell.?

The problems smoking weed caused me were increased anxiety and more pronounced delusions (made me feel even more insane than I already felt!)

Not smoking did cause bad insomnia for the first few days but after that it got a fair bit better, although was hard to sleep on occasion, and could never really doze in the morning ...once I was woke up that was it.
Also giving up the weed did make me a little bit more depressed..

But I would definitely say I was better off without it, although I must say I found it very difficult to stop..

 

[Jabberwocky]

- there are multiple amounts of valium in your system anyway

No!

There is 1 amount of valium in his body at any given time -- it may be the combined remaining dose for the last 14 days (10 half-lives at 30 hour half-life) -- but it is only 1 amount, a constantly changing amount.

 

[Solipsis]

Christ, I was trying to relate to the terms he used but it was just a case of poor semantics. It was already explained earlier in post 2 that it is about blood concentrations (have you read the thread?), so I don't see the problem in simplifying that again later because it seems more important that some matters were at least conveyed by summarizing. To avoid confusion about the wrong things. Getting technical about everything does not always help, and it is not always a great opportunity to try to teach comprehensively when someone has a particular question. See post #2 , #3 and #4 for context.

You should at the very least read multiple amounts there as an amount equil to one or multiple doses. And indeed that's not even accounting for the other factors that make this much more complex than a 1+1=2 sum.

No, there is no such thing as two waters either - it's uncountable. It's about volumes just like here it is concentrations. But this is hardly the time or the place to hammer on about it after explaining it.

 

[Tryptamite]

Is 70/75 just about holding you? Do you have ibs anyway?

I did a valium taper from 80mg it was far too fast at the start but until I reached 20-30mg I suffered no real symptoms even with the excessive speed of the Taper.

Now I'm at 7mg having just gone down from 10mg. This is too big a jump. But i will persevere.

Are your tablets from a reliable source? Are they always the same dosage!

I don't know why you would feel such a small percentage cut of your overall dosage so harshly.
I guess if going from 75-70 was hard start going down in milligram amounts, but that leaves you in a hard position when you've reached 10mg and 1mg is 10% of your overall dose...

 

[swilow]

I was very sensititve to any cut in my diazepam dose. Notably, I have mild epilepsy (mainly in younger years) which manifested again during the withdrawl, but as a child I was treated with various GABAergic anticonvulsants and suspect that I had somehow primed my CNS. My w/d was literally insane and I was psychotic.

I wonder if the 'kindling' phenomena is at play regarding the difficulty in what should have been an 'acceptable' cut. OP, have you ever tapered before from benzo's or GABAergics in the past?

After my own first benzo taper, which at least ended successfully, I started to use a bit again, initially diazepam and zopiclone over a two week period. I stopped this when I ran out and experienced quite intense W/D of the tripping-out, trembling, sweating, manic variety that subsided within a few days. But, I continue to take temazepam once a month, usually between 250-300mg spread over a week or so, and have noticed that I start to feel the mild withdrawal now after at least 2.5 weeks has elapsed, and its very different to other experiences. Its more extreme anxiety and breathlessness and tingling, trembling, rather than the semi-psychosis and blackout shit I used to get. I take codeine a few times a week and only notice potentiation of both when consumed together and no major increase in discontinuation effects. I take GHB several times a week, in lowish doses and maybe 2-3 in an evening, and experience no withdrawal or comedown or anything; just well being that lasts for a day or so. Why do I do this? For example, right now. :D

My advice would be to quite getting too concerned by the inhibition/induction thing. Basically, I get that Solipsis is saying the effect, whilst pharmacolgically sound, is probably insignificant. I think you may simply need to take smaller reductions whilst avoiding opiates if you can, and taking it easy with weed. Simply because these things do complicate tapers and can become another crutch.

 

[Solipsis]

I don't really know that it is really insignificant but I did try to argue that it's very unlikely that you would double or triple your blood concentration as you were scared of.

Nevertheless there are several reasons why it is not smart to take other drugs or mess with your enzymes / metabolism so it's really good that you stop and if you do try to keep use of other drugs to a minimum especially if the frequency, the number of drugs or the amount keeping your enzymes occupied is considerable.

I also meant: don't panic over it, but just still take all these things that complicate your taper and your metabolism seriously and take it from here, one day at a time. I didn't hear you report effects that would point to you having extremely low or high diazepam concentrations - and despite what you said about that it takes 2-3 weeks to notice, I doubt that you wouldn't notice serious changes - also it's been more weeks than that and you report more anxiety rather than less...

Just keep a close eye on yourself, be careful with drugs and medications and ride out your taper. It's so much better to get off the benzos, even if it may get difficult - trust me.

Cutting the dose just made me feel tense and miserable, though in a clinic I slept 'ok' while when I tried to taper at home I got insane insomnia. At the worst point I did feel like something was tearing me in half on the inside, but a person can get through it - just make sure you get the most support and care that you can. I also become hypomanic and hypercreative during several weeks of the taper - a lot of feeling surfaced again that was suppressed on benzos but it was wonderful to feel more alive again.

Turn this into something positive, you can make it and come out stronger.