Opioids Using Kratom for Methadone Withdrawal

[mike.vick]

I'm going to have to call bullshit. Even after years of abusing potent opiates, 5grams of Kratom gives me a nice little high and 8 grams is a strong dose and 10+grams make me nauseous and feel sick from to much. Maybe you need to find a better source for Kratom. This is coming from a guy that used to slam pure fentanyl powder and can drink several pounds of extremely bitter poppyseed tea and barely get a nod. The highs from Kratom and real opiates are different but Kratom is still pretty potent and had always been a life safer from withdrawals of high dose opiates, it's definitely way stronger then 40mg of morphine at 15grams of Kratom powder.

Don't blame me, I'm just a messenger: And if you have ever nodded, felt relief aside from suicide, felt actual opiate relief from kratom - maybe you are a rare metabolizer - I get all but nothing. I get 75% well- MAX - off of intolerable magnitude of doses of kratom, 45mg morphine XR would have me blissed out ALL day to a level Kratom couldn't match by the kilo.

Found Journal on google, have full access as I am university student
article titled:
"From Kratom to mitragynine and its derivatives: Physiological and behavioural
effects related to use, abuse, and addiction"
Neuroscience and Biobehavioral Reviews 37 (2013) 138–151

Pharmacology section - FULL SECTION
11.1. Receptor interactions
Mitragynine displays a high affinity to (MU)-opioid receptors
(Yamamoto et al., 1999). Also its oxidative derivative, mitragynine
pseudoindoxyl, exhibits potent opioid agonistic properties in
vitro. Pharmacological investigations have shown that mitragynine
acts at supraspinal- (MU) and (DELTA)-opioid receptors for its antinociceptive
effects (Matsumoto et al., 1996a; Tohda et al., 1997;
Thongpradichote et al., 199. However, for other psychoactive
effects, central opioid receptors may be more relevant. The affinity
of mitragynine to (MU)- and (KA)-opioid receptors is considerably lower,
but higher than that of morphine. It was shown that the methoxy
group at the C9 position as well as the Nb lone electron pair in the
fundamental structure are essential for the opioid agonist activity
(Takayama et al., 2002; Taufik Hidayat et al., 2010). A high opioid
receptor potency was found for the minor M. speciosa constituent 7-
HMG, suggesting full agonist properties. Kratom powder was found
to have a 350-fold less affinity to the (MU)-opioid receptor than morphine
in a 3H-[D-Ala2,N-MePhe4, Gly-ol]-enkephalin(3H-DAMGO)
radioligand binding assay in HEK 293 cells (Havemann-Reinecke,
2011).
11.2. Cellular effects
At cellular level, mitragynine inhibits neurotransmitter release
from the nerve endings at the vas deferens, partly through the
blockade of neuronal Ca2+ channels (Matsumoto et al., 2005b).
The authors proposed the neuronal Ca2+ channel-blocking effect
of mitragynine as a general mechanism for the analgesic and other
physiological actions of mitragynine. In addition, mitragynine was
shown to inhibit forskolin-stimulated cAMP formation in NG108-
15 cells in vitro. This effect could be blocked by the opioid receptor
antagonist naloxone, but not by the alpha-2-adrenoceptor antagonist
idazoxane (Tohda et al., 1997).

See I would have thought it would have a2adrenal agonistic action helping the WD like clonidine, since it is structurally similar to yohimbe - but apparently it does not.

Also this study said that Mytraginine had only a ~4% bioavalibility per oral in rats... Intresting, perhaps potentiable.

 

[kleinerkiffer]

Mitragynine is just one of many active chemicals in kratom...

 

[mike.vick]

Mitragynine is just one of many active chemicals in kratom...

Kratom contains about ~1-6% alkaloid content - and of these alkaloids, only two have been identified as the pharmaceutical players: Mitragynine, and 7-OH-Mitragynine. Of this total alkaloid content: mitragynine makes up around 65%, and 7-OH-M only 2% - around a 1:32 ratio. Mytraginine is said to be, at least, about 12 times less potent than morphine, and 7-OH-M is said to be ~5-7 times more times more analgesic than morphine. Which means the analgesic properties of kratom fall in line with about 54% opiate activity from Mytaginine and about 46% from &-OH-M

The other alkaloids are minor and inactive, sometime precursors to the main two, These included alkaloids: speciogynine and paynantheine at around 6-9% of total alkaloids, but these are pretty inactive alkaloids along with all the others, except the Main Two.

 

[Johnzig138]

No kidding. I went to jail, cold kicked 98mg, it took 3 MONTHS before i was back to "normal". I had been on a clinic for 4 yrs before arrest. I am one who actually does awesome on juice, but here in Portland, Or, it used to be last resort. (Seems Govt insurance changed that, as im 40, seeing 20 yr old kids on oxys getting on this misery trip, never tried a detox!!! Thats a dif thread.) Anyway, age, how you treat yr body, health, has tons to do with how you come off methadone. Hoping to see how kratom works, as friend of mine just lost insurance. No money? Sorry honey. Ya fucked.
(Btw, if i ever win lottery, im getting controlling interest in one of these clinics. Screw Apple, these joints make money hella crazy.)

 

[blackmarket91]

Hello guys this is my first post i made this account to come ask this question i hope i dont annoy anyone anyways let me start off my introducing myself and my story

im 26 now and a professional athlete, and iv been on methadone for the past 3 years. Which has ruined my career which i cant get back into until im off it. My mother has taken methadone since i was 6, and use to even give it to me as a child once a month when she thought she would have urine test. I was never addicted, and never did drugs really. But after a big break up i got depressed when i was 22. I started taking it once a week, then eventually i needed more and i got into the clinic for it. I got all the way up to 220 mg a day.

I noticed my conditioning and strength took a huge hit during this. So i took a break from my sport. I started tapering down 10 mg a week. I'm now down to 60 mg a day. My brother is on methadone as well, and hes kicked it only 1 time due to being in jail. He said that even after 9 months he still didnt feel right mentally. Which really scares the shit out of me. I normally live a very active healthy life style until the last 3 years. I want my career back, i feel like 10% of the person i use to be before i got on this.

The clinic obviously doesnt wana help me, and hates fact i say i wana come off this. I heard of Kratom ,but some here say you can get just as addicted to it as that of methadone. But i'm pretty sure its withdraws, and length of withdraws could never match that of methadone. If its only less than a 2 week thing i think it would be worth it if it could help me. I plan to come down 10 mg each week till i hit 10 mg. Then 2 mg a week till im down to 2 or 1 mg a day. Then maybe take kratom for a few months? I'm at 60 mg a day, like i said going down 10 mg everyday from 220 which im surprised i was able to do comfortably not feeling too bad. What would you guys suggest? I know iv rambled a bit i just really want some help i want my career back.

 

[Jabberwocky]

10mg per week is a lot to drop, although you are on a very high dose. Kratom will help with withdrawal from methadone, but it won't help until you've come off methadone. It would probably a 18-24 months, a proper slow taper is your best option. While you taper, once you get around 60mg, you'll notice that your body will get a lot healthier.

Frankly there are better than than kratom to use to come off methadone, but it might be helpful once you've detoxed using it as its own kind of maintenance drug. Honestly though, after methadone, although i could appreciate the opioid like effect once I'd come off methadone, taking kratom once I'd detoxed was more like scratching that opioid itch than anything else. It really made me want to use real opioids more than anything else I think. Left me feeling very unsatisfied. But I do know of others who have used kratom to help them transition off aoRT.

 

[blackmarket91]

18 t 24 months r u serous? I was thinking maybe 7 t 8 months max lol i should keep going as low as i can as long as i can stand it right? Man idk if i can wait 24 months. Im 26 i only have till around 33 till i retire. Another problem i have is this i go every 2 weeks and get my dose. I'm suppose to get 165 mg a day, but i dont take that much. i was keeping some back incase i somehow got kicked off the clinic and i was screwed since i live 2 hours away. Iv seen it happen to many people but every 2 weeks i have to get a full dose of 165 will that one dose once every 14 days ruin me? Or should i just try to puke it up cause the clinic there doesnt wana go down on me. They try to say its a mental thing that i cant be at a top professional athletic level lol can you believe that.

also you claim theres other things better than kratom to help with the acute withdraws what would that be?

 

[Jabberwocky]

Oh please don't misunderstand, you could probably get away with tapering off over the course of 8 months, it would just require a bit of push one your part. A slower taper would allow you to manage it a little more comfortably and effectively.

You have like seven years until you retire. What is 1.5 more years and the rush to get off methadone? A slow, methodical taper with room for adjustment allows for a really instrumental period of personal growth to happen as you deal with decreasing your dose. It is like the training wheels for when you aren't taking any opioids.

Taking more like a year and a half to taper off your current dose is pretty standard for the ideally comfortable taper (especially as you never know what will come up during the taper). But it isn't absolutely necessary by any means. Lots of people take less time to taper, although I can't speak to whether or not they were particularly comfortable during the process or maintained abstinence from non-prescription opioid use post the cessation of methadone.

Basically you want to plan for the long term with this. It's good you are thinking to whether you want to be at 33. A lot of that will be determined by how skillfully you go about tapering and detoxing from methadone. The more work you can do on your recovery before you jump off the methadone the better. And I have a feeling there is more you'll need to do then just decrease your dose to zero. After all, recovery from patterns of harmful substance use is about more than whether or even how we're using substances. It is deeply connected and interrelated to each and every other aspect of our lives outside how we use (or don't use).

 

[blackmarket91]

if i could taper slow i obviously would. but tbh being a professional cage fighter and boxer and being on methadone is an impossible task. iv gained over 70 pounds as well. its so hard to not wana eat sweets. and i hated sweets before i got on methadone lol. i feel like i'm a grand pa who doesnt wana get out of bed most days. im very forgetful of things now and very lazy. im just not the same person. i was told once i got to around 60 a day it would get better so well see. im at 60 a day now, i plan t go down 10 mg a day till i hit 0 mg then ill go down around 2 mg a week till i hit 2. then try to come off hopefully within 3 months after im off it ill be ok.

 

[blackmarket91]

i feel i can get low pretty fast im gonna keep going lower till i feel bad i was at 220 mg a day then i started going down 10 mg a week i thought by around 120 id feel bad but i was still ok manageable so i kept going im gonna keep going so hopefully ill be fine by even 20 mg a day if so i can kick it faster so you say i shouldn't even try to use the kratom until im at 0 mg a day once iv cut it completely?

 

[Jabberwocky]

I highly doubt you'd feel any effects from taking the kratom until you are in actual withdrawal from methadone. Pretty much any dose of any opioid will overshadow the effects of kratom. Have you ever used kratom before?

In terms of how you're managing your taper - do what is right for you! It sounds like you've got this pretty well thought out, so I'd keep doing what you're doing frankly. If you do end up finding yourself uncomfortable, please do consider taking a little step back to assess how to best handle the situation, whether to keep pushing or adjust your strategy with the taper.

I actually think you might have a better idea what you're doing than you might think frankly to be it sounds like it will be challenging, but it also sounds like if anyone is you are up for the challenge. It's still early in the process though, which is why I suggest allowing for as much flexibility in this as is possible given your circumstances.

 

[blackmarket91]

i want nothing to ever do with drugs. i dont wana chase a feeling anymore. the only reason i have to take this is cause i cant function. so that plus my desire to compete again will give me the drive i feel to not fuck up. i have not taken kratom before. iv never really done drugs besides methadone a few xanax and couple of loratabs before. tbh i have a weird case. but i was told by alot of different people to try the red vein kratom when i go into withdraws.

i wasnt told an amount to use. so i guess u just have to go by trial and error. i just hate that once every 2 weeks i have to take a huge 165 mg dose. i guess i need to puke it up i dont wana keep paying a clinic this much when i get down to under the 10 mgs a day paying over hundred a week is a scam at that point.

 

[Jessssssssee]

You just have to be patient and beleve in yourself.

 

[blackmarket91]

man this sucks.. i have so many opportunities right now that im not gonna have in 8 months or so im down to 40 mgs a day right now its gonna suck so bad when i get off this completely i wish i could fight with methadone then id be fine but man it just makes me so weak fucks with my sleeping ect i wish i could just go t a rehab and a month later i could be off it whats the fastest way t getting off this without being sick if i did gointo a rehab ?

 

[Jabberwocky]

There isn't a really good fast way to get off methadone. The best way to do it is a slow taper followed by a couple weeks of comfort meds to handle the acute detox, followed by appropriate medication and professional support.

What opportunities do you have now? I'm sure there is a way for you to work with you situation. I felt much the same as you for a time when I was on methadone, but taking my time has led to things working out better than I could have imagined.

I had a lot of opportunities I had to pass up while I was on methadone, but after getting off of it right (it's been a year now), I've worked hard while on methadone and since getting off that has lead to new opperunities now I never dreamed of having before - and now I'm ready and far better equipped to take fullest advantage of them.

 

[CRICKETBEE]

There isn't a really good fast way to get off methadone. The best way to do it is a slow taper followed by a couple weeks of comfort meds to handle the acute detox, followed by appropriate medication and professional support.

What opportunities do you have now? I'm sure there is a way for you to work with you situation. I felt much the same as you for a time when I was on methadone, but taking my time has led to things working out better than I could have imagined.

I had a lot of opportunities I had to pass up while I was on methadone, but after getting off of it right (it's been a year now), I've worked hard while on methadone and since getting off that has lead to new opperunities now I never dreamed of having before - and now I'm ready and far better equipped to take fullest advantage of them.

I would love to know how you got off of methadone? I have been under 40 mgs for years and recently went down to 20mg without any issue. I am "hoping" that I can keep tapering and tapering over the next 6 months or so but then of course I worry about months and months of WDs and PAWS. You say you have been off of it for a year--I would love to know how you did it!

 

[Hexenstahl]

The best way to get off methadone in my opinion is to switch to an equivalent dose of a short acting opioid and maintain that dose for 3 months (the longest period a methadone withdrawal can last) and then slowly taper off of the short acting opioid and finally kick it.

 

[Dextro .45]

Clonidine 0.1mg (commonly used for opioid withdrawal)
Pregabalin 300mg (used to reduce Methadone withdrawal)
Diazepam 5mg (Valium potent anxiolytic & muscle relaxation)

These are all very common and accepted for short term / 2weeks during cessation of Methadone/opioids

In Canada we have Hydromorph-Contin 3/6/9/12/18/24/30mg XR beads in capsules ….I have blue 9mg capsules & Dilaudid 2mg IR tablets

6mg XR capsule ….then 3mg XR for 1 week

You’d be able to jump off Methadone 1mg on this regiment