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ULDN - The magic weapon to reduce and keep tolerance to Opioids low

Hexenstahl said:
Interesting study. Perhaps the ancients were aware of this effect and used it to prevent opium tolerance. Basically a kind of ULDN before NTX was invented.
pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Ginger (Zingiber officinale Roscoe) prevents the development of morphine analgesic tolerance and physical dependence in rats - PubMed

The data indicate that ginger extract has a potential anti-tolerant/anti-dependence property against chronic usage of morphine.
pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
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It might be worth a try, but I have extreme doubts in the validity of this paper. If this paper is true, ginger could remove a great majority of withdrawal symptoms, and I just don't buy that. The journal J Ethnopharmacology has an acceptance rate of 94% which is very high. The journal Journal of Biological Chemistry for example is a respectable mid tier journal and it has an acceptance rate of 63%.

Furthermore, there is the argument that if something as common as ginger had such a large effect on withdrawal, you would expect this to be a well known trick to opioid users.

Unfoftunately a lot of scientifically weaker countries tend to tie publication count to promotions, where a paper published anywhere counts, which incentivises people to publish in predatory journals which don't have rigorous review processes (so they are basically invalid in terms of being peer reviewed science that is held to a high standard).
 
@Skorpio
I agree with everything you have written except this:

Skorpio said:
you would expect this to be a well known trick to opioid users
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Something being potentially effective in doing something is actually no guarantee that it must become well known, which sounds counter-intuitive, but look at Naltrexone for example. Considering how effective, especially CONSISTENTLY effective, it is in ultra low doses to keep tolerance at a stable level indefinitely and potentiate the analgesia and high, practically nobody knows of it except maybe a handful doctors and junkies like me who use it. I mean opioid tolerance ought to be history by now thanks to ULDN but it just doesn't catch on to people. The addicts at the maintenance clinic think I'm having a placebo effect or make shit up when I talk about the amazing effects of ULDN.

See, if people don't even take you serious when it comes to an established drug used off-label for various purposes backed by science, because it all sounds "too good to be true" then what do you think will they say about the potential of ginger in reducing wd? They will not even try it. I'm not saying ginger works doing what the study claims. I have not tried it yet, but this attitude is what prevents people from discovering something potentially helpful even though it felt unbelievable initially. I didn't believe the ULDN hype too at first and had I stopped there...well, I'd be struggling with skyhigh tolerance now, including OIH, side effects and a total lack of euphoria which I desperately need for my debilitating depression.

So what I'm trying to say at the end of the day is this: don't necessarily believe it, but consider it a possibility worthy of attention.
 
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Hexenstahl said:
@Skorpio
I agree with everything you have written except this:



Something being potentially effective in doing something is actually no guarantee that it must become well known, which sounds counter-intuitive, but look at Naltrexone for example. Considering how effective, especially CONSISTENTLY effective, it is in ultra low doses to keep tolerance at a stable level indefinitely and potentiate the analgesia and high, practically nobody knows of it except maybe a handful doctors and junkies like me who use it. I mean opioid tolerance ought to be history by now thanks to ULDN but it just doesn't catch on to people. The addicts at the maintenance clinic think I'm having a placebo effect or make shit up when I talk about the amazing effects of ULDN.

See, if people don't even take you seriously when it comes to an established drug used off-label for various purposes backed by science, because it all sounds "too good to be true" then what do you think will they say about the potential of ginger in reducing wd? They will not even try it. I'm not saying ginger works doing what the study claims. I have not tried it yet, but this attitude is what prevents people from discovering something potentially helpful even though it felt unbelievable initially. I didn't believe the ULDN hype too at first and had I stopped there...well, I'd be struggling with skyhigh tolerance now, including OIH, side effects and a total lack of euphoria which I desperately need for my debilitating depression.

So what I'm trying to say at the end of the day is this: don't necessarily believe it, but consider it a possibility worthy of attention.
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I guess by well known, I mean floating around in the drug user hive mind. Things like ULDN, black seed oil, and loperamide all have adherants on bluelight and the larger web. Similarly, ginger gets used for psychadelic nausea (and there is a molecular mechanism for it; 5HT3 antagonism at the chemoreceptor trigger zone). Doctors tend to avoid the cutting edge (for good reasons and bad) when it comes to advances; especially when it is a patient suggesting new things.


Also, it's definately worth a shot; im just saying that I wouldn't gamble on it.
 
Skorpio said:
especially when it is a patient suggesting new things
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God how much I hate such doctors who think they're supposed to know everything better because they have a freaking degree.
How dare YOU explain medical stuff to me you stupid, uneducated junkie patient! I am a DOCTOR, yeah that's right. Look at my PhD certificate that I proudly display here at my office. And look at my white coat...that means I know everything better than you by default!

The system is ultimately at fault though. It has attracted completely wrong personalities in this field due to the wrong incentives. Doctors up until the 50s of the last century used to be rather humble and most importantly empathetic people, in some cases (prior to the 20th century) even living below the middle class, who entered the medical profession mainly because of a) fascination with the subject matter and b) a genuine desire to treat and ideally heal people of their debilitating conditions. Being a doctor used to be a very self-sacrificing job, whereas today doctors are more akin to businessmen. I'm not seen as a patient, but as a customer. My substitution doc is fortunately an exception though. He is precisely how an ideal doctor should be. Considers himself a lifelong student, has a "patient first" attitude and is open minded.

The medical profession used to attract such empathetic and humble personalities precisely because becoming rich was not the selling point of the medical faculty in universities, but simply helping people. The high pay and ego-inflating title collection ("dr. med. rad. dent." and so on and so forth) has only served to mostly attract greedy people with overblown egos and a know-it-all attitude. I have seen it all the time during meetups with family and friends since my childhood (y'know, those meetings where the family invites relatives and friends over to eat together, talk, etc. No idea if there is a word for these kind of meetups lol). Those present who told others that they are practicing physicians, always got reactions that basically boiled down to "you heard that hun? He must be earning a lot of money. I've heard cardiologists have an upper six-figure salary 🤑 🤑 🤑 " instead of "wow, things like working hours are an alien concept to this guy. Dude wakes up in the middle of the night and rushes to help the patient. I have deep respect for such people.".

Goes to show how far-reaching the consequences are when you incentivize and promote aspects of a profession that should have remained either subordinated or completely irrelevant to begin with.
Sorry for this rather long and off-topic rant, but I had to get this off my chest. I wish you a pleasant weekend...
 
Sorry it just irks me when people mix that stuff up, for some reason there are people who seem to think physicians are experts on medical research but they don't get any of that training during an MD, MD is all about patient care and diagnosis with maybe a sprinkle of research if they take the elective.

We see a lot of this when people go on about stuff like vaccines and drugs for treating covid, people love quoting some physician they found on YouTube or who made a blog. I definitely don't expect physicians to be on the cutting edge of research or to even understand what studies are good evidence. Shit, I have problems with that sometimes and I'm actually getting research training.

Like you said, they work crazy hours and don't even have time to keep up with the literature many times. Managing patient care is already a big task that physicians are spread super thin on
 
Can somebody tell me what dose of naloxone I can use to precipitate a very mild withdrawal from kratom and lower my permatolerance? I have intranasal 4 mg devices
 
darvocet21 said:
Can somebody tell me what dose of naloxone I can use to precipitate a very mild withdrawal from kratom and lower my permatolerance? I have intranasal 4 mg devices
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Many of kratoms effects are from other receptors than the opioid one. There's no way to precipitate mild wd as far as I know. Precip wd is awful. I would just go with like dxm or magnesium or something like that.
 
Hey everyone, I know this is an older post but I found it about a year ago and just now decided to try this out with oc's last week I can tell a stout difference personally so I really appreciate this post. I was curious though, this medication is for primarily for alcohol4 right? That had me thinking could an uldn do the same for alcohol tolerance? So I took a dose of uldn and drank 3 beers(same abv as i normally drink) and It felt like I had around at least 5 drinks. I was very surprised. I felt a very noticeable difference. If I do drink I always do it on a full stomach and so that wouldn't play a factor. There wasn't any sort of time gap days between when I usually drink. Just wondering your thoughts.
 
jylt said:
Hey everyone, I know this is an older post but I found it about a year ago and just now decided to try this out with oc's last week I can tell a stout difference personally so I really appreciate this post. I was curious though, this medication is for primarily for alcohol4 right? That had me thinking could an uldn do the same for alcohol tolerance? So I took a dose of uldn and drank 3 beers(same abv as i normally drink) and It felt like I had around at least 5 drinks. I was very surprised. I felt a very noticeable difference. If I do drink I always do it on a full stomach and so that wouldn't play a factor. There wasn't any sort of time gap days between when I usually drink. Just wondering your thoughts.
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I have to assume that reducing tolerance increases the risk of inadvertent overdose....
 
darvocet21 said:
I have to assume that reducing tolerance increases the risk of inadvertent overdose....
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So, my understanding is that it is up regulating opioid receptors at Uldn doses.

Side note - every time I see ULDN I keep thinking when I played wow in my 20s haha…

Is it really worth it for kratom though? I mean I would think it would still work because it up regulates opioid receptors right? I know others have asked but I didn’t see anything yet.

I was actually thinking about going in naltrexone but I really am veering away from combining drugs these days. I know it’s a safe combo but it’s just…well…for example I was at the grocery store and saw DXM and for a second I’d try taking it to potentiate kratom but if I liked it then I might like it too much and dont really want a DXM addiction.

I do t like DXM as it is. Such a dirty drug feeling.

Meh..idk…maybe just a t break? Would a T break help more than naltrexone? Idk…
 
someguyontheinternet said:
Sorry it just irks me when people mix that stuff up, for some reason there are people who seem to think physicians are experts on medical research but they don't get any of that training during an MD, MD is all about patient care and diagnosis with maybe a sprinkle of research if they take the elective.

We see a lot of this when people go on about stuff like vaccines and drugs for treating covid, people love quoting some physician they found on YouTube or who made a blog. I definitely don't expect physicians to be on the cutting edge of research or to even understand what studies are good evidence. Shit, I have problems with that sometimes and I'm actually getting research training.

Like you said, they work crazy hours and don't even have time to keep up with the literature many times. Managing patient care is already a big task that physicians are spread super thin on
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Ime…even the clinical director didn’t know the mechanism of action of simple vraylar. I mean clearly it’s readily available information. This was in inpatient treatment.

Side note- vraylar caused me severe aggressive behavior and pretty sure it was increasing my T because I was severely horny, extremely, like A teenager again, the aggression and I broke out with alot of acne and I am 40. I don’t get acne. Well I was in vyvanse and subs at the time as well but I know it wasn’t the vyvanse or the subs. I’ve been on them before. Never had this. Stopped vraykar myself and side effects went away. I am not a pushover by any means but I’m not absolutely NOT an agressive person.

After this I realized that doctors really do t know meds all that well. IMO - they just seem to follow instructions from the manufacturer. Like why the hell do I need you then? Speaking of psychiatry that is.

It really surprised me just how little some doctors know.

Hell, I was at cvs asking the pharmacist about a med for my wife and was asking if it was a gabaergic med. She said she doesn’t know what that means…

But I guess each trade has their own language more or less so maybe they use a different language idk…
 
🤔

"Moreover, μ opioid receptors function normally in the absence of filamin A, as evidenced by studies of opioid binding and DAMGO inhibition of forskolin-stimulated adenylyl cyclase. However, agonist-induced receptor down-regulation and functional desensitization were virtually abolished in cells lacking filamin A. The level of internalized μ-opioid receptors, after 30-min exposure to agonist, was greatly reduced, suggesting a role for filamin in μ opioid receptor trafficking."

molpharm.aspetjournals.org

Interaction Between the μ Opioid Receptor and Filamin A Is Involved in Receptor Regulation and Trafficking

The carboxyl tail of the human μ opioid receptor was shown to bind the carboxyl terminal region of human filamin A, a protein known to couple membrane proteins to actin. Results from yeast two-hybrid screening were confirmed by direct protein-protein binding and by coimmunoprecipitation of...
molpharm.aspetjournals.org molpharm.aspetjournals.org
 
Hexenstahl said:
Not really. That's what I initially thought too, but ULDN works by interacting with Filamin A. I have written more about it here in this post -> https://bluelight.org/xf/threads/methadone-to-oxy-equivalent.934232/page-2#post-15911009
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Hi, thanks for the guide. I tried it today and started with 1.25μg 30 min before my dose. it seems to have had the opposite desired effect and made the opiate effects weaker. i know this is the intended effect when taking normal doses of naltrexone... do you know if this means 1.25μg is still too much?
 
bcc23 said:
Hi, thanks for the guide. I tried it today and started with 1.25μg 30 min before my dose. it seems to have had the opposite desired effect and made the opiate effects weaker. i know this is the intended effect when taking normal doses of naltrexone... do you know if this means 1.25μg is still too much?
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If higher doses have the same effect then yes, it's way too much. I suggest to go into the nanogram range and start with 50ng, incrementally increasing your dose by 50ng each day. You seem to belong to that tiny minority of people that I have encountered on Reddit once or twice who need to take NTX in nanograms in order to achieve the desired effect. Try it out and let me know how it turned out.
 
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