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Two studies, addition of DET and Tryptamine to mushroom substrate

Any follow-up on the experience with adding Mimosa Hostilis root bark to the substrate? That would be an incredibly easy (and cheap) way to potentiate mushrooms.
If the freebase DMT in the MHRB would not be soluble enough, would an acidic extraction (containing, say, DMT citrate) work without lowering the substrate Ph too much?
I don't mean to sound lazy, I know purified material works, I'm just wondering whether there's a faster way.

yaesutom said:
... if anyone has any tips on how to speed up the process, make it simpler (and/or fastest / easiest way to fruit them, maybe smaller jars, and what substrate to use, a good cubensis strain. etc etc) let me know
Click to expand...

The most hassle-free / sure way to grow them I could find is using a PF Tek substrate ( http://www.fungifun.org/English/Pftek#a2 ) in pre-sealable autoclaveable filter patch bags (1-2 bucks a piece). They reduce chances of contamination (good if you've put some more expensive tryptamines in the substrate) and for additional safety you can even fruit in the bag (at least for the 1st flush; reduces yield somewhat). A good strain for fruiting in the bag (allegedly) is Cubensis Mazatepec.

Regarding the legality of doped-up mushrooms, it would be weird if there was absolutely no psilocy(bi)n. And a GC/MS can pick up minute quantities, as far as I know. Anyone with opinions on this?
 
GC-MS is pretty useless for psilocybin/psilocin
HPLC is widely used as is UV spectroscopy for quantification.
the analytical methods are seriously sensitive, they can detect psilocin in spores, so spore vendors are actually breaking the law.
the suplemented mushrooms would contain trace psilocin and be illegal. even if they didn't, in the UK they would be illegal anyway because the prosecution would argue that the 4OH tryptawhatever was not naturally subsisting, and was created by the intervention of man.
a side note
I am not sure whether the biosynthetic pathwy for psilocin has been properly elucidated, I am not aware that DMT has been detected in psilocybe mushrooms, if anyone has a ref fr any analysis that found DMT in psilocybes could you post it
 
Now in my country they've only managed a couple of years ago to set up a drug testing lab with money from the EU. Prior to that they didn't even have enough money to run drug market purity tests. Their equipment includes:

QDI 1000 UV-VIS Microspectrometer 240 – 2100 nm, 1nm resolution

GC / MS

IR spectrometer

They got their new toys laid out on their website:
http://www.politiaromana.ro/Criminalistic/album_foto_3.htm

Vecktor, since you seem to be an expert on the topic, could you have a gander and estimate their capabilities? (as to detecting tryptamines and other similarly obscure substances)

Oh, and Ro mania doesn't have an analog act, so if mushrooms could have been produced w/o psiloci(by)n, that would have been quite a boon (to take some stress off mushroom growing :) ).
 
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It depends on how much sample they had and the skills and knowledge of the operators. It would also depend on what standard of proof was required in court. If as I suspect there are no independent forensics labs in Romania then the standard of proof could be rather low.

I would expect that with that kit and some of the older tricks that don't require expensive kit , they would be able to easily detect psilocin and other tryptamines at about 0.005 mg levels and most likely better than that. They would also be able to distinguish between the other analogues and psilocybin. However it if they weren't aware that the mushrooms contained other alkyl tryptamines, they probably might screw up and not positively identify the psilocin/bin. this would only happen once!

In the UK the gold standard method of identifying psilocy(b)in is now HPLC and is good down to nanogram levels even in the prescence of other tryptamines, and is pretty much irrefutable evidence. GC has been used for psilocin in the past but isn't as good evidence. Before HPLC, thin layer chromatography was used succesfully as an identification method.

In short I would not rely on the detection limits to prevent prosecution, if it is there even in miniscule amounts they will most likely find it.

If romania doesn't have an analog act a defense might also consist of claiming that the psilocin was created as an artifact and that the mushrooms contain an ester of psilocin other than psilocybin, again very dangerous territory as careful extraction and analysis could recoverand identify psilocybin.

{disclaimer}
this is not intended to constitute legal advice it is the authors personal opinion and the author is not responsible for any consequences arising from the use of the information contained herein
{/disclaimer}
 
Psychedelics_r_best said:
How would you sterilize the root bark before adding it to the substrate to avoid contamination?
Since heat would break down the dmt wouldnt there be no way to sterilize the root bark?
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DMT extraction involves boiling the MHRB for a good few hours and it doesn't seem to hurt the DMT. You could try that, and then adding it to the substrate, as autoclaving (pressure cooking) together with the substrate would expose it to higher temperatures.

Vecktor said:
{disclaimer}
this is not intended to constitute legal advice it is the authors personal opinion and the author is not responsible for any consequences arising from the use of the information contained herein
{/disclaimer}
Click to expand...

Thanks for the advice but I hope I won't need it :) *knock on wood*; I don't plan on getting caught in the near future, anyways only a couple of people know about my hobby :)
 
If romania doesn't have an analog act a defense might also consist of claiming that the psilocin was created as an artifact and that the mushrooms contain an ester of psilocin other than psilocybin, again very dangerous territory as careful extraction and analysis could recoverand identify psilocybin.
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I wonder if it's possible to competetively inhibit psilocybin production with high levels of DET etc - suppose it depends upon enzyme kinetics & the IC50 of various dialkylated tryptamines, but it's theoretically possible.
 
could you use a substrate that is not condusive to DMT or Tryptamine production, and add the DET/MIPT to that.
 
fastandbulbous said:
^ Ah, right - got what you mean. Yes they (fungal enzymes) seem so non-specific that 4-hydroxy DET could well inhibit the N-methylating enzyme (is it one dependant upon methionine as the methyl donator?). I suppose that if it is that non-specific it would be possible to add ethionine (S-ethyl cysteine) to the growing medium and end up with 4-hydroxy DET without ever having to add DET (which is good considering that DET is scarce due to its controlled status).
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Would it be possible to make DET by doing an extraction before the 4-ho was tacked on? Or somehow inhibit the 4-ho from ever getting tacked on through the duration of the grow?

Has anyone added tryptophan? Grows using horshit usually end up being much more potent than going "shitless". I think it might have something to do the the tryptophan in the shit. Tryptamine isn't very hard to get if you have tryptophan, but if the mushrooms will do the work, (even if conversion is less effiecient), why not let them, tryptophans cheap:)
 
kong said:
Would it be possible to make DET by doing an extraction before the 4-ho was tacked on? Or somehow inhibit the 4-ho from ever getting tacked on through the duration of the grow?

Has anyone added tryptophan? Grows using horshit usually end up being much more potent than going "shitless". I think it might have something to do the the tryptophan in the shit. Tryptamine isn't very hard to get if you have tryptophan, but if the mushrooms will do the work, (even if conversion is less effiecient), why not let them, tryptophans cheap:)
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Thats the generally theory behind rye, millet, etc being more potent substrate than brown rice, etc.

Question: If one was going to do this theoretical experiement with a 5-meo compound, what would be most interesting to experiment with? 5-meo-dmt? Any other suggestions? Theoretically, this might get done with 1-2 months.
 
I just noticed this thread is a little old, but if anyone else is considering adding a phosphate group to the medium, calcium phosphate is a better choice as the fungi need calcium for growth and the phosphate is also very useful for growth as P can be a limiting nutrient. Also, any novel tryptamines created (and non-novel ones like psilo-) are greatly stabilized in the growing fungus and when dried when they are in the phospho-ester form. I've read that almost all of the psilocibin degrades upon drying while the psylocibin remains intact.
I've actually done this using the "tek" on the shroomery, taken from Gartz, with tryptamine base (or HCl, I honestly can't remember) and the fungi are definitely qualitatively stronger. Although not 3X stronger, much more similar to Cyanescens in strength. It would be neat to run it through an HPLC though...
On another note, tryptamine and even tryptophan can be difficult for the novice to obtain. 5-HTp on the other hand, rather easy to come across. For those looking to make some novel 4-OH-5MeO-DMT substances, this might a good route to pursue.

"I wonder if it's possible to competetively inhibit psilocybin production with high levels of DET etc - suppose it depends upon enzyme kinetics & the IC50 of various dialkylated tryptamines, but it's theoretically possible"

Yeah, maybe, but perhaps someone should sequence the cubensis genome and then we can just overexpress the enzymes and we could never saturate those buggers mwahahahaha
 
I haven't had a chance to take genetics yet, but sequencing plants/fungi and overexpressing enzymes that produce alkaloids -- would that be a viable option for other plant/fungi derived drugs like coca or opium?
 
hussness said:
I haven't had a chance to take genetics yet, but sequencing plants/fungi and overexpressing enzymes that produce alkaloids -- would that be a viable option for other plant/fungi derived drugs like coca or opium?
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Yep.
The bigger goal is to put these genes/pathways into microorganisms and have them synthesize the compounds. Then producing any naturally occuring compound could be grown in a jar...
I know the genes encoding the lysergic acid pathway have been isolated as a cluster from paspali. Theres a good research project...
 
fastandbulbous said:
^ Ah, right - got what you mean. Yes they (fungal enzymes) seem so non-specific that 4-hydroxy DET could well inhibit the N-methylating enzyme (is it one dependant upon methionine as the methyl donator?). I suppose that if it is that non-specific it would be possible to add ethionine (S-ethyl cysteine) to the growing medium and end up with 4-hydroxy DET without ever having to add DET (which is good considering that DET is scarce due to its controlled status).
Click to expand...

Now that would be an interesting idea if the fungal enzymes could use other cysteine derivatives for an alkylating feedstock...S-propyl cysteine and S-allyl cysteine are available, maybe with a bit of added tryptamine they might get converted the whole way through to 4-PO-DPT / 4-PO-DALT just by the mushrooms themselves...
 
Yea but if that stuff gets incorporated into the enzymes youre in trouble
 
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Tryptophan is very easy to optain. It won't raise any eyebrows. Very otc
 
I'm bumping this thread because I am curious if any experiments were done and if they were successful.
 
All I know is that the commercial growers in The Netherlands add tryptophan to the growing medium. I don't know if it's the freebase or the salt. Those guys are total experts so a Dutch mushroom book would be a good place to look...
 
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