Turns out weed can kill you after all

[Rio Fantastic]

Breaking news:

http://thechart.blogs.cnn.com/2014/04/23/marijuana-use-linked-to-heart-problems/

Turns out cannabis can cause serious cardiovascular problems and has actually killed people by causing heart attacks. I guess people can stop repeating the "nobody dies from weed" line of reasoning now.

 

[yteek]

A potential link and actually proven to be the direct cause, are kinda different.

 

[Rio Fantastic]

A potential link and actually proven to be the direct cause, are kinda different.

From 2006 to 2010, they found 35 reports of patients who had experienced cardiovascular complications following cannabis use. The study was published Tuesday in the Journal of the American Heart Association.

About 85% of the patients were men and their average age was 34. In nine cases the patient died.

While the study doesn't identify a particular level of risk of marijuana use, it does call for more research on the subject, and warns doctors that there seems to be at least some danger.

The article suggests that there is a direct cause and effect.

 

[samnslumberland]

My dad has known somebody who died of a heart attack from heavily smoking marijuana for nearly his whole life. This is why you should consider vaporizing if you plan on smoking for prolonged periods of time.

 

[Ubi]

M o d e r a t i o n................

 

[yteek]

The article suggests that there is a direct cause and effect.

Yeah, but one article, or study, or whatever, doesn't make it anything concrete, I'm not against the idea of marijuana being potentially capable of this, it just seems a little bit premature at this point...I also wonder how many of those individuals were eating junk food and their other unhealthy habits.

Like I said, I'm alright with any negative marijuana publishings, but it seems with the newfound hype, people are racing to post it can kill you, where was this shit the last few decades?

 

[Mycophile]

The article suggests that there is a direct cause and effect.

I didn't read the whole article, just the parts you linked, so let me ask you something very important:

Did any of these studies mention whether or not the people who died had any previous heart conditions or blood pressure problems?

I am assuming that they do not.

EVERYONE knows that weed can act as a stimulant in addition to being a mild depressant and mild hallucinogen.

Everyone knows that during the come-up your heart rate and blood pressure go up but later drop, and I think it probably happens worse with smoking than other ROAs.

I think it's been known for a LONG time that if you have a prior heart condition or blood pressure issue that smoking weed can kill you, but it's not the WEED that is killing you, it's your HEART CONDITION DUDE!!!

There is a whole list of things people with heart conditions and high blood pressure should not do, including exercising too vigorously, drinking too much coffee (or any at all for some), smoking cigarettes, and the list goes on and on.

I think that probably TONS of people with prior heart conditions have had heart attacks and died while running too fast.

So...does that mean running kills people or that heart conditions kill people?

 

[Mycophile]

Ok I went back and read the whole article.

Looks like there are some parts you didn't pay enough attention to so I'll bold them:


Only 20% of patients in the study had a known history of heart disease or risk factors for heart disease. The other patients may have had unknown cardiovascular risk factors or a history that was not documented in the medical file.

^^^

Ok, so 20%...1/5th of the people who died (about 7 people), had prior heart conditions.

It is UNKNOWN yet POSSIBLE...that the other 80% (ONLY about 28 people in FOUR years) had prior heart conditions.

My assumption is that they probably did.

They may not have, but this study doesn't prove that they DIDN'T either.

Then there is this:


This study shows a some preliminary evidence of cardiovascular harm from marijuana but isn't conclusive,” Dr. Allen Taylor, chief of cardiology at Georgetown University School of Medicine, told CNN in an e-mail. “The study's limitations are important in that we can't know how high the risk is, just that there is a signal of risk between marijuana smoking and heart troubles.”

^^^^

So they CAN'T know how high the risk is, just that under CERTAIN conditions, there is a risk.

I am going to propose that those conditions are prior heart conditions and blood pressure issues and other health problems.




"I'm not saying that any user of cannabis would suffer from any of these complications," Jouanjus says. But "we do not have enough information to say that cannabis use is safe."

^^^^

That sentence should be followed up with "we also don't have any proof other than a few isolated incidents that marijuanna by itself and unrelated to any prior health problems is NOT safe."

This study proves nothing other than that in FOUR years Twenty eight people who smoked weed and 9 of them died...without us knowing if other factors were involved.

That's not much proof that weed by itself kills healthy people...

 

[Burnt Offerings]

“The perception that marijuana is safe is deep-seated in the public and even amongst some health professionals,” says Rezkalla, a cardiologist at Marshfield Clinic in Marshfield, Wisconsin.

What a load of crap that is, in regards to the "health professionals" part anyway. Most medical doctors and psychologists I've interacted with take admitted marijuana use as a sign that someone is a problematic drug user and probably an addict of some kind.

 

[Mycophile]

What a load of crap that is, in regards to the "health professionals" part anyway. Most medical doctors and psychologists I've interacted with take admitted marijuana use as a sign that someone is a problematic drug user and probably an addict of some kind.

I don't know, my doctor doesn't think it's very dangerous but he doesn't think it's harmless either.

The fact is, one way or another, it ISN'T very dangerous, but it's also not 100% harmless.

Also, another health problem that could lead to death is if someone who smoked weed has severe asthma which some of those people may have had.

It's funny that the whole argument that article is based around is that of 28 people who MIGHT NOT have had prior health conditions 9 of them died after smoking weed over the course of 4 years while the 20% of the participants had prior heart conditions.

I'd say that's pretty damn benign in comparison to most substances.

 

[neversickanymore]

M o d e r a t i o n................

Yes yes yes.. water is a good thing but ingest to much of it and you die.

 

[stameme]

Ican’t think of a substance that can’t be abused. As said already: MODERATION

 

[Burnt Offerings]

I don't know, my doctor doesn't think it's very dangerous but he doesn't think it's harmless either.

The fact is, one way or another, it ISN'T very dangerous, but it's also not 100% harmless.

Also, another health problems that could lead to death if someone smoked weed is severe asthma which some of those people may have had.

It's funny that the whole argument that article is based around is that 28 people who MIGHT NOT have had prior health conditions died after smoking weed over the course of 4 years while the other 7 people admittedly did have prior heart conditions.

I'd say that's pretty damn benign in comparison to most substances.

Well yeah, I personally would never argue that smoking weed is "harmless", as in totally without potential harm to the user, but heart disease/cardiovascular-related death is one of the leading causes of death there is, and an array of things can contribute to it, including unhealthy eating habits, a sentient lifestyle, pollutants in the air if one lives in a congested urban environment, etc. As with all things, one should just attempt to balance the things they enjoy with concerns for their own safety *shrug*

As far as the healthcare professionals thing goes, maybe I've just had really bad luck with MD's but I've come to regret being honest with doctors about my marijuana use (and use of other drugs).

 

[Rio Fantastic]

I don't know, my doctor doesn't think it's very dangerous but he doesn't think it's harmless either.

The fact is, one way or another, it ISN'T very dangerous, but it's also not 100% harmless.

Also, another health problems that could lead to death if someone smoked weed is severe asthma which some of those people may have had.

It's funny that the whole argument that article is based around is that 28 people who MIGHT NOT have had prior health conditions died after smoking weed over the course of 4 years while the other 7 people admittedly did have prior heart conditions.

I'd say that's pretty damn benign in comparison to most substances.

So your defense is that weed ONLY killed 28 people!? I think that's 28 too many for it to be called "benign"....

 

[Mycophile]

So your defense is that weed ONLY killed 28 people!? I think that's 28 too many for it to be called "benign"....

Dude, did you even read the arguments I laid out above??

The 9 out of those 28 peopl killed probably had prior heart conditions or some other condition and it wasn't the weed that killed them it was probably their condition.

Scroll back up and read what I wrote.

Even the article you linked had statements by doctors admitting that they honestly don't know if those people in the study had prior conditions and fully admitting to the fact that 20% of them DID.

Doctors in that very article admitted that that study is "not conclusive".

Look, I'll just repost some of your article:


"Only 20% of patients in the study had a known history of heart disease or risk factors for heart disease. The other patients may have had unknown cardiovascular risk factors or a history that was not documented in the medical file."


This study shows a some preliminary evidence of cardiovascular harm from marijuana but isn't conclusive,” Dr. Allen Taylor, chief of cardiology at Georgetown University School of Medicine, told CNN in an e-mail. “The study's limitations are important in that we can't know how high the risk is, just that there is a signal of risk between marijuana smoking and heart troubles.”


Look at the bolded parts.

And yes, 9 people died over the course of 4 years, who MAY have had prior heart conditions and which whoever did this study admits they have no proof that they didn't...that's not a conclusive link to weed causing heart attacks.

All it shows is that a VERY small number of people in ONE study who may very likely have had prior conditions had heart attacks after smoking weed.

Weed is known to raise blood pressure and heart rate temporarily so everyone has known for a long time that if you have prior conditions it could kill you, but so could running too fast if you have a heart condition and like I said...it wasn't the Running in that case that killed the person just like it wasn't the weed, it was the heart condition.

You are NOT going to make me believe that 100% perfectly healthy people had heart attacks from smoking weed.


We already know enough about weed to know that that is EXTREMELY unlikely.

Everything has it's risks, but I have never seen a conclusive study proving that weed has killed someone who had absolutely no prior health conditions.

 

[Rio Fantastic]

The article lays out in black and white the conclusive causal link between the heart problems and weed use. This is what irritates me about people defending weed - when one says that weed causes schizophrenia they say "No, they must have already had schizophrenia". When one says weed makes you lazy it's "No, they must have already been lazy". Now there's a study which shows that nine people have died directly as a result of smoking weed and now people are already jumping to "Oh, they must have already had heart problems". They don't want to accept that weed can cause anything remotely negative, so every bad effect it has on the user's health is turned into something the user already had, because it couldn't POSSIBLY be the weed now, could it?

 

[Mycophile]

The article lays out in black and white the conclusive causal link between the heart problems and weed use. This is what irritates me about people defending weed - when one says that weed causes schizophrenia they say "No, they must have already had schizophrenia". When one says weed makes you lazy it's "No, they must have already been lazy". Now there's a study which shows that nine people have died directly as a result of smoking weed and now people are already jumping to "Oh, they must have already had heart problems". They don't want to accept that weed can cause anything remotely negative, so every bad effect it has on the user's health is turned into something the user already had, because it couldn't POSSIBLY be the weed now, could it?

Dude, if you look at the quotes I bolded you will see that this article does not prove at all that any of the people in the study didn't have prior conditons and even admits that 20% DID.

Weed is not a powerful enough stimulant to cause heart attacks in HEALTHY people.

There have been TONS of studies done, and this is the only one I've ever seen that can even possibly be assumed to indicate in any way that weed has killed anyone.

You can't just look at one study out of THOUSANDS and say "well, that's it, a few people smoked weed and died so therefore weed kills people who are perfectly 100% healthy".

The only way this study would be unflawed would be if they had 100% verified that all of the people involved did NOT have prior health conditions.

The bolded parts alone point out the flaws in the study but you refuse to see them.

Weed can't kill people who don't have health conditions, it's just not powerful enough and hundreds of studies on both people and mice have shown it.

And weed DOESN"T cause schizophrenia, it brings out latent schizophrenia in schizophrenics, studies have shown this also.

THC itself is IMPOSSIBLE to overdose on and that alone you cannot dispute.

Weed can cause PLENTY of negative things, no one ever said it couldn't.

But this study in no way proves that weed can kill people who have no prior health conditions because most of the people in the study were not evaluated in terms of their prior health conditions, and of those that were, 20% DID have heart conditons.

Also, do you even realize how many people smoked weed between 2006-2010 that did NOT die afterwards???

MILLIONS.

SO assuming IF...IF the 9 people that died actually DIDN'T have health conditions, that would STILL make weed the one of the safest mind altering substances.

 

[Rio Fantastic]

Dude, if you look at the quotes I bolded you will see that this article does not prove at all that any of the people in the study didn't have prior conditons and even admits that 20% DID.

Weed is not a powerful enough stimulant to cause heart attacks in HEALTHY people.

There have been TONS of studies done, and this is the only one I've ever seen that can even possibly be assumed to indicate in any way that weed has killed anyone.

You can't just look at one study out of THOUSANDS and say "well, that's it, a few people smoked weed and died so therefore weed kills people who are perfectly 100% healthy".

The only way this study would be unflawed would be if they had 100% verified that all of the people involved did NOT have prior health conditions.

Let me ask you: have you ever smoked weed??

I don't think you have, and I think that's why you aren't listening to logic because you have some prior agenda to prove that it is deadly.

The bolded parts alone point out the flaws in the study but you refuse to see them.

Weed can't kill people who don't have health conditions, it's just not powerful enough and hundreds of studies on both people and mice have shown it.

And weed DOESN"T cause schizophrenia, it brings out latent schizophrenia in schizophrenics, studies have shown this also.

THC itself is IMPOSSIBLE to overdose on and that alone you cannot dispute.

Weed can cause PLENTY of negative things, no one ever said it couldn't.

But this study in no way proves that weed can kill people who have no prior health conditions because most of the people in the study were not evaluated in terms of their prior health conditions, and of those that were, 20% DID have heart conditons.

Also, do you even realize how many people smoked weed between 2006-2010 that did NOT die afterwards???

MILLIONS.

SO assuming IF...IF the 28 people that died actually DIDN'T have health conditions, that would STILL make weed the safest mind altering substance known to man.

You can't even argue otherwise.


Can someone else look at the parts of this study that I bolded and please tell me whether or not I'm crazy?

Maybe I am, but I'm seeing a study with a lot of flaws.

I've smoked weed loads of times. I used to absolutely love the stuff, and am hoping to get back into it soon, if I can get over getting caught in the weird negative thought-loops that have pervaded the experience recently. And you're right in saying it's a relatively safe substance, but you can't discredit the study by pulling out your ass the assumption that they all had pre-existing heart conditions to try and explain away a study that you dislike, and accusing me of having a hidden agenda is insane. And when did I ever say that it kills people who are 100% healthy? I never said that, you're putting words into my mouth.

I'm not going to argue with you about the link between weed and schizophrenia, the evidence on the topic is pretty clear that heavy cannabis use in adolescents can cause schizophrenia in those that had shown no schizotypy symtoms before, but this is digressing from the point of the thread so I won't go into it now. Calling weed the "safest mind altering substance known to man" is ridiculous, especially in the light of the new evidence shown by this study. What about psilocybin, LSD, caffeine, modafinil, poppers or salvia, to name but a few off the top of my head? All of those are significantly safer than cannabis. Again, I'm not saying weed isn't a RELATIVELY benign drug, but to make a stupid statement like it's the safest drug known to man exaggerates it's safety profile in my opinion.

 

[yteek]

I fucking hate how people have such a personal affinity for marijuana they feel the need defend it as if it were their children. Completely incapable of looking at things in a unbiassed rationale matter, it is almost sad to be honest.

 

[Rio Fantastic]

I fucking hate how people have such a personal affinity for marijuana they feel the need defend it as if it were their children. Completely incapable of looking at things in a unbiassed rationale matter, it is almost sad to be honest.

+1 to this, although it's not just weed that this annoys me with, I get pissed when anyone defends a drug in this blind, zealous manner. Every drug has positive and negative effects, but some people portray weed to be this wonder drug that can do no wrong, and even when presented with evidence to the contrary they will immediately discount it, assuming that the study, or the sample, or the motives of the researcher are flawed rather than even consider that their precious plant could have a negative effect like any other drug in existence.