Toxic masculinity isn't real

[Xorkoth]

I was making the same point @SnafuInTheVoid was making about the American middle class vs worldwide standards. Poverty in the US is very different to poverty in Africa/Asia. When people say they are "starving" in cushy Western countries and they "don't have enough money to live", somehow they still have smart phones and big televisions.

Growing up, my church would go to this settlement coincidentally near where I live now, where we would go repair peoples' roofs and build bullsheds and shit. These people were really poor, and yet every fucking one of them satellite TV and a brand new pickup truck. Somehow.

 

[birdup.snaildown]

I lived well under the so-called poverty line for about a decade and I was totally fine.

There's poverty and there's poverty.

 

[Snafu in the Void]

Lower class Americans don't realize they aren't really lower class.

US has so many amazing programs for "poor" people

the misconception is that a huge majority of the homeless population has a problem with drugs/alcohol and/or are mentally ill and that's the reason they beg.... bullshit

I've BEEN homeless. I've BEEN that guy on the street corner begging for change.

I do NOT give money to homeless people. I empathize. I also KNOW FOR A FACT there are dozens of programs and resources (IN EVERY STATE, IT'S FEDERAL). to get yourself fed and sheltered and ultimately find a job and get out of poverty.

People who beg on the corner, the vast majority of them, will spend that money on drugs and alcohol.

Homeless people without drug problems DO NOT beg on the corner. They use the programs and get help.

Trust me. I used to sell newspapers on street corners. I've been good friends with many homeless people. Many of them are not actually homeless, they just don't want to work.

Been there, done that, I can speak about it.

Ever wonder why you keep seeing the same homeless guy on the street begging and they never seem to get better????? It's because THEY CHOOSE NOT TO!!!!!!!! fuck

 

[birdup.snaildown]

Same in NZ and Australia. If you're homeless, you are provided with housing and food and case workers to help you get a job. If you're mentally ill, you can get a pension for the rest of your life just by claiming mental illness. The left complains the pension isn't enough, but I've lived on less and been totally fine... enough is never enough. It's always the evil government and the evil rich people (that pay to support you) that don't give enough because they want to oppress the poor.

I too have known many, many people that don't work because they don't want to... and they know they don't have to. There are definitely people out there who can't work, but most of the people suckling on the welfare system don't fall into that category. Most of them are exploiting welfare. Most of them are lazy.

 

[Rainman1964]

I am a woman, a mature woman and it is like this: men are the way they are because women made them that way. Behind every great man is the woman who made him and behind every fucked up man is the woman who fucked him up.

Women do not know the power they have. I know, but I am left with the dregs of men who the shrews of this generation have destroyed. All women know how to do is bitch, and women have bitched men into every bad behavior they complain about. Think about it ladies. You know I am right.

 

[Rainman1964]

I wonder how well that pay disparity holds up as women get older...

I'm sure women strippers are paid more too, women prostitutes, women beggars. Provided they're young and at least mildly attractive.

I wouldn't really say that disproves the premise of a male dominated sexist system.

What is so funny is that you don't see women sitting in a room, practically in a trance, with dollar bills in their mouths as men dance around a pole. And yet women complain about men.

 

[Rainman1964]

Oppression only occurs when someone sees themselves as being oppressed. When is this victim-status going to stop?

 

[birdup.snaildown]

Oppression only occurs when someone sees themselves as being oppressed. When is this victim-status going to stop?

When you stop blaming women for everything that men do?

 

[morpher001]

Masculinity and Femininity are terms that describe the physical, cognitive, social and spiritual specializations that have developed in each of the sexes.

Specializations help to increase the overall number of things human being as a whole do very well.

A body designed to birth live young and a body designed for utility will outperform a body that must accommodate both.

By definition, there is no toxic masculinity or femininity, Just damaged or perhaps toxic men and women.

 

[morpher001]

What it must be like, to be a man! I don’t suffer from gender dysphoria, by the way – I’ve always accepted my fate, but to be honest I so often wonder what I might have done, had I been a man…

Grass is always greener. Be grateful for the benefits you have as a woman and have some sympathy for hardships that males have as men. To bemoan your hardships and envy someone elses advantages is not going to help you, or anyone, much.

 

[morpher001]

Masculinity is toxic. It needs to be superannuated the fuck out of the scene.

Because you don't understand it, or had a bad personal experience of it, or... why exactly?

Final thought though: when men feel they can't live up to this insane standard of hardness they feel shame, which is the most primal, most dangeous, most dreadful emotion possible. Guilt is easy in comparison. I read once that "we feel guilt for what we've done: but we feel shame for what we are.

People close to me, including my mother, have committed suicide. And it was shame that made them do it.

Shame - are you sure? Perhaps you mean self esteem or lack thereof. Well thats how I see it anyway, huge problem for both men and women.

 

[MrsGamp]

Because you don't understand it, or had a bad personal experience of it, or... why exactly?




Shame - are you sure? Perhaps you mean self esteem or lack thereof. Well thats how I see it anyway, huge problem for both men and women.

RE: "masculinity is toxic, it needs to be superannuated the fuck off the scene" plus my comments on male shame being very dangerous ...

My most recent partner, with whom I lived for almost three years, ended up being insanely violent towards me. Not from the word go - it escalated. It started with stuff I thought was pretty neglible - like throwing things at me. My own parents used to throw things at each other on occasion, have screaming matches, etc. My father was horribly verbally abusive to Mum, but he never hit her.

Anyway, one night - I can't remember why - my ex crossed the Rubicon and more or less beat the shit out of me. I had a black eye, and bumps on my head from haivng my head slammed repeatedly into a wall.

And he was genuinely ashamed. Of this I am sure. He was ashamed because it's deemed to be utterly shameful for a man to do this to a woman.

The shame was, in fact, unbearable for him, and I believe in order to make that shame go away, he more or less had to hit me again, in order to prove to himself that the first assault was somehow justified or not all that bad or really all my fault ... and as such, not as shameful.

Towards the end he was slamming my head into floors, walls ... he was punching me, backhanding me, and worst of all choking me. Very often, right afterward, he'd slam his OWN head into a wall or punch himself in the face. In the first instance, harming himself seemed like a genuine act of self-loathing and shame. He was so ashamed that he'd hurt me, in his panic his first instinct was to hurt himself as well.

Unfortunately, he was nearly always absolutely shit faced when things got this bad, and wouldn't remember how he'd beaten himself up ... or would pretend to not remember.

He'd take photos of black eyes he'd given himself and tell me I'd done it. He'd show these pictures to his mothers and his friends ...

He needed to believe his own bullshit because he inhabited a moral universe - a masculine moral universe - in which his actions were "unforgiveable". Actually nothing he did would have been unforgiveable had he been able to own it, to apologise without reservation and to acknowledge my right to be angry about the serious injuries I incurred.

Instead, any apology I got was always half-arsed. "Sorry, but after all, you had done/said ..." sort of apology. And the other thing about this sort of apology from violent men is that it forecloses the woman's right to be angry about being beaten.

You've received your apology. The verbal apology, however lame, is meant to vitiate all your resentment and mistrust. If you ever refer again to, say, the fact you got a fractured shoulder ... or maybe try to explain how hard it is to trust a man after he's choked you nearly unconscious ... then you are being a bitch and a guilt-mongerer. Instead of a nice forgiving lady...

 

[Juniper Bruhmomentius]

To be in war with oneselves is hell. Its literally hellish. Poverty? Thats a no-issue for me, but trying to accept what youve always seen as a weakness is fucking hard. Ive many times just thrown myself to these situations then not acted upon them. Why do I do this to myself. There is a fine line to be walked but Im no brave person. Im a dreamer in sense. Maybe its a mindset after all, but nevertheless the way out of that mindset requires acceptance which just seems so fucking hard to achieve.

 

[MrsGamp]

I am a woman, a mature woman and it is like this: men are the way they are because women made them that way. Behind every great man is the woman who made him and behind every fucked up man is the woman who fucked him up.

Women do not know the power they have. I know, but I am left with the dregs of men who the shrews of this generation have destroyed. All women know how to do is bitch, and women have bitched men into every bad behavior they complain about. Think about it ladies. You know I am right.

Are you, er, joking or serious?

If you're not joking, this is easily the most misogynist post on this thread so far.

Perhaps you have a point of sorts: women themselves want manly men. Or think they do.

Few women are capable of even conceptualising themselves as independent entities. They can be parasitical upoon men ... who are not innately more dependable or secure than women.

When men are weak or weary .... or disloyal .... or vain ... if they cheat or fib, it's like: A-HA! He's a narcissist!. A sociopath! Dead inside!

At the very least, he's a bastard.

Whereas women continue to "empower" themselves (as you put it) by exercising these priviliges of underlings ....vanity, disloyalty, claims of frailty ...

"oh it wasn't my fault and even if it was my fault you should make allowances because I'm only a woman, after all ....".

Across all cultures, women are infantilised. Maternity, for example, is either trivialised or banalised - when in fact every new baby is an emergency, it's life or death, it's a "battle" ...
Ironically metaphors for war come to mind when I think of maternity.
Yet I sometimes wonder if war wasn't invented so men could encounter an Ordeal comparable with maternity.

For some reason many women prefer to think of themselves - and be thought of as - babies.

Being Baby Girl is demeaning, but also easier. You can get away so much self-delusion, so much self-pity, so little self-examination, so little effort, so much spite ...

But make no mistake: most men prefer Baby Girls too. Let's be fair.

 

[morpher001]

RE: "masculinity is toxic, it needs to be superannuated the fuck off the scene" plus my comments on male shame being very dangerous ...

My most recent partner, with whom I lived for almost three years, ended up being insanely violent towards me. Not from the word go - it escalated. It started with stuff I thought was pretty neglible - like throwing things at me. My own parents used to throw things at each other on occasion, have screaming matches, etc. My father was horribly verbally abusive to Mum, but he never hit her.

Anyway, one night - I can't remember why - my ex crossed the Rubicon and more or less beat the shit out of me. I had a black eye, and bumps on my head from haivng my head slammed repeatedly into a wall.

And he was genuinely ashamed. Of this I am sure. He was ashamed because it's deemed to be utterly shameful for a man to do this to a woman.

The shame was, in fact, unbearable for him, and I believe in order to make that shame go away, he more or less had to hit me again, in order to prove to himself that the first assault was somehow justified or not all that bad or really all my fault ... and as such, not as shameful.

Towards the end he was slamming my head into floors, walls ... he was punching me, backhanding me, and worst of all choking me. Very often, right afterward, he'd slam his OWN head into a wall or punch himself in the face. In the first instance, harming himself seemed like a genuine act of self-loathing and shame. He was so ashamed that he'd hurt me, in his panic his first instinct was to hurt himself as well.

Unfortunately, he was nearly always absolutely shit faced when things got this bad, and wouldn't remember how he'd beaten himself up ... or would pretend to not remember.

He'd take photos of black eyes he'd given himself and tell me I'd done it. He'd show these pictures to his mothers and his friends ...

He needed to believe his own bullshit because he inhabited a moral universe - a masculine moral universe - in which his actions were "unforgiveable". Actually nothing he did would have been unforgiveable had he been able to own it, to apologise without reservation and to acknowledge my right to be angry about the serious injuries I incurred.

Instead, any apology I got was always half-arsed. "Sorry, but after all, you had done/said ..." sort of apology. And the other thing about this sort of apology from violent men is that it forecloses the woman's right to be angry about being beaten.

You've received your apology. The verbal apology, however lame, is meant to vitiate all your resentment and mistrust. If you ever refer again to, say, the fact you got a fractured shoulder ... or maybe try to explain how hard it is to trust a man after he's choked you nearly unconscious ... then you are being a bitch and a guilt-mongerer. Instead of a nice forgiving lady...

I dont disagree about shame, not sure why I nit picked, because in the big picture it really isn't mentioned enough.

Now the domestic violence minefield. Where to start...

First of all:

Bashing your woman is NOT masculine. Its the very opposite, because it is weak.
So a weak man who habitually beats his wife, is a man who LACKS masculinity.

To call masculinity into question in relation to the issue of domestic violence then, is entirely the wrong approach.

A better question would be how did a man reach adulthood still lacking masculinity, how do we prevent that happening, and how can it be restored to those who are lacking.

Same applies to (usually psychologically) abusive women. A properly feminine woman would not behave that way so whats gone wrong.

Unfortunately, sometimes its a case of a predatory man or woman at work & unfortunately people seem to jump to this conclusion quite quickly, and so, those other questions are seldom asked. My personal belief is that predators are fairly rare and 'normal' yet dysfunctional perpetrators relatively common.

I also personally believe that 'normal' yet dysfunctional people have a way of finding each other. Also that a relationship rarely will last long enough for patterns of abuse to fully germinate unless both have issues. If it were just one, well most of the time the red flags will be obvious and relationship will quickly be ended.

because he inhabited a moral universe - a masculine moral universe

He inhabits an amoral universe. And lacked masculinity.

The black-and-white concept of a masculine or a feminine universe can blind you to their dynamic.

-The masculine seeks out the feminine then endeavors to keep it safe.
-The feminine draws in the masculine then endeavors to keep it strong.

An excellent situation of reciprocal benefit. By contrast dysfunctional men attempt to draw in a woman to gain their approval and validation (which they should not need). Dysfunctional women seek out a man onto whom they can project their fear and resentment (that they should not have).

 

[morpher001]

Are you, er, joking or serious?

If you're not joking, this is easily the most misogynist post on this thread so far.

Perhaps you have a point of sorts: women themselves want manly men. Or think they do.

Few women are capable of even conceptualising themselves as independent entities. They can be parasitical upoon men ... who are not innately more dependable or secure than women.

When men are weak or weary .... or disloyal .... or vain ... if they cheat or fib, it's like: A-HA! He's a narcissist!. A sociopath! Dead inside!

At the very least, he's a bastard.

Whereas women continue to "empower" themselves (as you put it) by exercising these priviliges of underlings ....vanity, disloyalty, claims of frailty ...

"oh it wasn't my fault and even if it was my fault you should make allowances because I'm only a woman, after all ....".

Across all cultures, women are infantilised. Maternity, for example, is either trivialised or banalised - when in fact every new baby is an emergency, it's life or death, it's a "battle" ...
Ironically metaphors for war come to mind when I think of maternity.
Yet I sometimes wonder if war wasn't invented so men could encounter an Ordeal comparable with maternity.

For some reason many women prefer to think of themselves - and be thought of as - babies.

Being Baby Girl is demeaning, but also easier. You can get away so much self-delusion, so much self-pity, so little self-examination, so little effort, so much spite ...

But make no mistake: most men prefer Baby Girls too. Let's be fair.

Women love to back-seat drive but flatly refuse to take responsibility for any wrong turns or mishaps. Just how it is. Basically they make a lot of noise and don't really expect much listening & certainly never volunteered for any accountability for the decisions.

Maternity, for example, is either trivialised or banalised

Almost universally untrue in every cultures at any time in history. What makes you think that??

Yet I sometimes wonder if war wasn't invented so men could encounter an Ordeal comparable with maternity.

Perhaps maternity was invented to give women an idea of what its like to have a wife.

But make no mistake: most men prefer Baby Girls too. Let's be fair.

Wrong. Only the weak and cowardly can tolerate them. And perhaps the adolescent.

 

[Rainman1964]

Are you, er, joking or serious?

If you're not joking, this is easily the most misogynist post on this thread so far.

Perhaps you have a point of sorts: women themselves want manly men. Or think they do.

Few women are capable of even conceptualising themselves as independent entities. They can be parasitical upoon men ... who are not innately more dependable or secure than women.

When men are weak or weary .... or disloyal .... or vain ... if they cheat or fib, it's like: A-HA! He's a narcissist!. A sociopath! Dead inside!

At the very least, he's a bastard.

Whereas women continue to "empower" themselves (as you put it) by exercising these priviliges of underlings ....vanity, disloyalty, claims of frailty ...

"oh it wasn't my fault and even if it was my fault you should make allowances because I'm only a woman, after all ....".

Across all cultures, women are infantilised. Maternity, for example, is either trivialised or banalised - when in fact every new baby is an emergency, it's life or death, it's a "battle" ...
Ironically metaphors for war come to mind when I think of maternity.
Yet I sometimes wonder if war wasn't invented so men could encounter an Ordeal comparable with maternity.

For some reason many women prefer to think of themselves - and be thought of as - babies.

Being Baby Girl is demeaning, but also easier. You can get away so much self-delusion, so much self-pity, so little self-examination, so little effort, so much spite ...

But make no mistake: most men prefer Baby Girls too. Let's be fair.

I could not have said this any better. Touche.

 

[Juniper Bruhmomentius]

Men will be men (unless they consciously want to change) and women will be same (unless they want to grow out of that mindset). I feel sad for the women in drug game choosing the worst possible men. If you love getting beaten the fuck up, go ahead and date that rat.

 

[birdup.snaildown]

@MrsGamp

Im sorry tgat youve had some negative experiences with men. The domestic abuse you described sounds like a nightmare but i don't see how that defines men.

If you happened to be assaulted by African American women on more than two separate occasions would that lead you to conclude the existence of toxic afro-feminism?

People are individuals. Most individuals are good. The man who beat you clearly had mental issues. That doesnt mean men have mental issues.

If you abuse a dog, it might bite someone. But if you treat it with love and respect it probably won't. There are abusive males and abusive females. Has n nothing to do with inherent toxicity and everything to do with nurture.

 

[MrsGamp]

I

I dont disagree about shame, not sure why I nit picked, because in the big picture it really isn't mentioned enough.

Now the domestic violence minefield. Where to start...

First of all:

Bashing your woman is NOT masculine. Its the very opposite, because it is weak.
So a weak man who habitually beats his wife, is a man who LACKS masculinity.

To call masculinity into question in relation to the issue of domestic violence then, is entirely the wrong approach.

A better question would be how did a man reach adulthood still lacking masculinity, how do we prevent that happening, and how can it be restored to those who are lacking.

Same applies to (usually psychologically) abusive women. A properly feminine woman would not behave that way so whats gone wrong.

Unfortunately, sometimes its a case of a predatory man or woman at work & unfortunately people seem to jump to this conclusion quite quickly, and so, those other questions are seldom asked. My personal belief is that predators are fairly rare and 'normal' yet dysfunctional perpetrators relatively common.

I also personally believe that 'normal' yet dysfunctional people have a way of finding each other. Also that a relationship rarely will last long enough for patterns of abuse to fully germinate unless both have issues. If it were just one, well most of the time the red flags will be obvious and relationship will quickly be ended.



He inhabits an amoral universe. And lacked masculinity.

The black-and-white concept of a masculine or a feminine universe can blind you to their dynamic.

-The masculine seeks out the feminine then endeavors to keep it safe.
-The feminine draws in the masculine then endeavors to keep it strong.

An excellent situation of reciprocal benefit. By contrast dysfunctional men attempt to draw in a woman to gain their approval and validation (which they should not need). Dysfunctional women seek out a man onto whom they can project their fear and resentment (that they should not have).

I'm sorry, but the above is rubbish.

Masculine seeks out feminine to KEEP IT SAFE?

"IT"???????

Firstly, every woman knows she's innately safer alone or with other women than with any man.

Men want women to bolster them and keep them "safe", not the other way around.

Men cannot protect women from any aspect of biological feminine experience.

Men protect each other, and they are willing to protect a bullshit ideological version of "femaleness".

In my experience men are not willing to deal with the raw biological reality of femaleness, and are usually not interested in "helping out" with anything they cannot identify with themselves.

So it's convenient all round that these days privileged women can keep their fecundity controlled and be freer ... ie pseudo men.

The best kind of woman to be in the 21st century is a MTF transsexual.

No-one cares about "real" women much any more (or "cis" women, as the transgender community insultingly puts it ....)