The worst opiate/opiod to withdraw from? [New poll options added 1-22-08]

[morphine-dreams]

I used to be crazy addicted to this "kratom" tincture that was definitely some other highly potent, ultra short acting opioid. I'd start going into WD 45-60 mins in, full blown by 90-120 minutes. I unsuccessfully CT'd like 5 or 6 times, then when I finally kicked that particular substance I took 2nd plateau DXM doses for 2 or 3 days, smoked a lot of weed, pretty sure I had benzos, and it still kicked my ass. I basically stayed in bed for 3 days shivering in a pool of sweat. I had so much cognitive dissonance when reading about kratom WDs, while my experience matched or surpassed CT heroin WD in some cases. At least it was short though.

I also had had to kick poppy seed tea. I was using it as a maintenance drug/slow taper because ofc I relapsed on that "kratom" tincture. It was MISERABLE at first, but the main symptom was pain. I managed to get a small script for hydrocodone which helped tremendously and after that, it honestly wasn't that bad. At least not mentally. The shitty part was it took a month to get out of the acute phase (though it was way milder after 1 week) and 3-4 months to get out of PAWS.

As a side note, hydrocodone should be used medically as a rapid taper drug. If your tolerance is high enough, it barely keeps you out of WD, but it makes you not want to die during the process and then you're not stuck on subs or methadone. It's gotta be APAP free hydro though. It's like you're still kicking cold turkey, but the hydro seriously softens the blow.

 

[Roxxx516]

Opana for me

 

[Roxxx516]

Hey friends...I'm starting a 120 mg.oxymorphone withdrawal...orally..any wisdom you can throw at me...I have like 15 forays left to wean on...please enlighten me

 

[Ne0]

Never been on methadone myself, but my late mother (rip) visited a methadone clinic for five years before she decided to go cold turkey.
In my ignorance I suggested to get that she would kick the covers 8-9 days then stand up and walk. Boy was I wrong!
After watching her trembling in the fetal position for 4 1/2 weeks it became apparent that the w/drawls weren't going to simply go anytime soon.
So I took her to her primary physician for advice and/or help. I just came out and told him the truth. He informed my mother an I that this would continue for MONTHS before any semblance of recovery would be noticed, then proceeded to chastise me for allowing her to stop cold turkey, ultimately putting her health in danger.
He wasn't licenced to prescribe suboxone or bupenorphine. He admitted her and immediately hooked in an IV drip. Then reached in his pocket and removed a vial of hydromorphone and proceeded to administer first 4 mg, then after my poor mother let out a comforting sigh, administered an additional 4mg.
She thanked him and went into a peaceful slumber with a tear rolling down her cheek.
With my sister watching over her he directed me to a dr./patient conference room where he proceeded to explain to me that although hydrmorphone (dillaudid) was itself highly addictive, it's actually one of the easiest opiates to wean off of. And after a further tongue lashing for putting my 63 year old mother in possible danger, he explained that since my mom had fairly recent hip replacement surgery, he could prescribe hdrmrphn without catching attention from the DA.
He then printed up a strict regimen for administering the dillie with weaning off as the primary goal.
Going by memory, I recall first he prescribed 2 eight mg pills per day. One in the morning and one after dinner. Get this.... to be taken sublingualy as to bypass the liver. For one month. Then the following month he wrote a script for 2 four mg per day taken in the same manner.
Then the third month he prescribed the same mg only this time to be taken orally. (By that time she sometimes skipped or forgot to take her second dose.. good sign.)
Then the fourth month naturally he took her down to 2mg twice a day. Again she often skipped her evening dose. Then eventually his instructions changed to one 2mg per day "as needed".
I am happy to report that she stopped taking them at all after not quite 2 weeks and preferred naproxen for minor aches and pain..
I was also tickled myself because I wound up with a decent surplus of dillies for myself..
Sorry I tend to go on with a story once I start. But point being methadone is hands down the most difficult opiate type drug to stop taking, and according to the good dr. Hydromorphone although a strong opiate, is among the easiest to stop using. Granted this is up to the users will and desire to stop.
Now I must add that a different doctor prescribed her Xanax for anxiety a few months later and she liked them...a bit too much.
She over did it one night in October of 2013 and fell asleep in her bedroom floor with her leg underneath her (she was sitting upright on her leg which incidentally had an artery stint behind her knee). She was in that position for at least 12 hours. As a result the stint was bent closed and lost circulation in her leg.. She got to the ER too late and unfortunately had to have her leg amputated.
A sad ending. Because where the leg was removed never healed properly and subsequent infections eventually proved to be fatal. She passed away in October of 2014..
I was also prescribed Xanax for anxiety and PTSD. Needless to say I've switched to colonzopam.
Sorry for the essay, tomorrow will mark two years since her passing and next month will mark two years we've been in court about the faulty stint.
BTW although not an opiate, Xanax proved to be rather difficult to stop using in spite of substituting with klonopin..
Admins may move this post to a more apropriate thread. .
Again, sorry for the essay.

RIP Carolyn. "Mama".

Feel sorry for you're mother. It seems in USA everything is better, in here Europe you are forced to go cold turkey, no doctor would ever consider to give you some opioid that is easier to quit, their mindset is that if you are addict you need to suffer as much as possible.

 

[Ne0]

Hey friends...I'm starting a 120 mg.oxymorphone withdrawal...orally..any wisdom you can throw at me...I have like 15 forays left to wean on...please enlighten me

Its all comes to down how much you are willing to risk in order to quit it? I quit heavy 3 years of opium use by using GHB and speed. Its not for everyone but for me it worked, I would never go cold turkey, thats torture and is very bad way to quit.

 

[Roxxx516]

Neo...I aguirred 7 sub 8,90 Val 5,Tirana dine. 1 abou80 an and hope to be fairly pain free...any wisdom..
Please respond

 

[Roxxx516]

Plus 30/ 40 0pana and 24 ...30 r0xis

 

[Nebuchadnezzar]

Roxxx516

Roxxx516, Prepare Yourself. I am on day 9 off the 174 Oxycontin 15mg given to withdraw from 120mg Oxymorphone a day for the last 3.5 years. I took 3 30mg OPANA ER's along with 3 10mg fast acting oxymorphones. I turned the last 90 30mg Opana ER's into six weeks worth as a slow taper. I started snorting the 10 mg sometimes after just removing 1 30mg Opana. At half dose I could not sleep for days AND days. Got pot and whiskey had RLS bad. 2 hours sleep in 8 days. AT HALF DOSE WHILE TAKING SHORT ACTING. I filled my 174 Oxycontin at one month still with 1 30mg Opana a day with 6 15mg oxycontin, chewed, snorted with no relief. Felt no hope or anything good in this world and I have 4 fantastic boys. I accidentally drank almost a fifth of whiskey to sleep and got 3 freakin hours. DO NOT DRINK IT IS DANGEROUS. I just mention to show how hard this has been. Any Oxy etc. I have never had a problem getting off ever but this Opana is a different Breed at least for me. Pot has helped a bit. It was after 6 weeks of no sleep, RLS and mental darkness I stumbled on How to Use Klonopin for Opiate Withdrawal.

I recognized the name and checked our med cabinet and found a bunch of Clonazepam my son pretended to take but did not. It is not for everyone due to it's addictive nature but for me it was a gift from God and I do mean that. I researched about it and at 8 PM I took some I do not know how much as I had drank and smoked pot to help this clonazepam get me some sleep. I did not take more than 4 MG I believe. I had not slept for over two days and was feeling quite insane. I put on these huge old pioneer headphones the exact ones hanging on the cow skull in the Sherlock series, decent sound. Started a long playlist on repeat and went out at about 11 pm. I woke about 11 AM in the same position as I went out headphones still rippin in the exact same spot. I cried. Hope is a beautiful thing when You can see it even if it is distant and dim.

I had a carpal tunnel operation feb 18th 2010 and woke from surgery with intractable pain. 3 Years into the nightmare I was given the OPana. At the time it was a Godsend as it was the first time I felt I could breath since the pain started. About a year ago I started noticing that 6 hours into my 40 mg Opana dose I would feel sick like I was withdrawing so I started getting freaked out. I did not want to up my dose. I may be a rare case but nothing has ever had such a grip or has been more difficult to stop. When I was young I drank with valium smoked GOOD weed constantly, shrooms, LSD and cigarettes for 10 to 12 years. I loved getting high. Do not mean to preach but I stopped everything all at once when I trusted Christ as my savior in 1985. Two weeks of feeling uncomfortable but nothing compared to just taking one of the 30 mg Opana's away from the 120 mg usual.

Roxxx516, Prepare Yourself and I do not mean for a nightmare I mean Check with your Doc about the clonazepam. It is not for everyone due to it's addictive nature but I could have spared myself and my family so much grief by doing some research before I started. It stopped the dreaded RLS and I have slept every night at least 5 hours. I know You are doing research but I am unfamiliar with the modes You mentioned. I just know for me Clonazepam has made this a breeze.

Please update Your decisions and how it is going. It is possible and well worth it. I feel again.

 

[Ne0]

Neo...I aguirred 7 sub 8,90 Val 5,Tirana dine. 1 abou80 an and hope to be fairly pain free...any wisdom..
Please respond

The thing with quitting opiate with other opiates is that it might make WDs longer. Gaba-drugs are good for taking mental and physical wds away. If I were you I would get lots of lyrica, gabapentin, baclofen and maybe some benzos. GHB is god drug for quitting but its also addictive drug, but there are many positive medical studys using GHB to quit opiates without the torture you get from WD.For me GHB took almost all WDs away, there still was sweating, but my mood was very good and my body felt good, phenibut (5g daily) had almost the same effect but it lasts 24h so its very good for opiate WD. And also ofc you need some anti nausea and anti diarrhea and anti stomach ache medicine.

 

[Roxxx516]

Thanks neb, neo...it's a fight ( considering I'm working too) in snorting my 40s. Breaking up into 3s....doing my 30 rox...once a day...clonapin...2 x .2 ..3x.daily plus 10.mg Valium when I hit the wall...at bedtime I use the Tizanadine...like 5 plus val. +clonidine. and a snort of course.....it's a fight....feel like I'm fighting Tyson in his prime....but I'm trying...can you do weed due to piss test and could lose meds 4 ever....I really do need normal dose ( I just was overtaken ...by the devil or something this month) I will let all know as I go...thanks for not being judgemental..I have enough of that shit on the homefront....until we meet again...I'm out...poof.......

 

[Roxxx516]

^^^^ clonidine ^^^^^ not clonapin......big diff...ya kno

 

[Roxxx516]

Btw...down to 60 oxymorphone daily....( half) and functional so far....thanks friends....with your help in will right things out....peace

 

[the last dose]

Btw...down to 60 oxymorphone daily....( half) and functional so far....thanks friends....with your help in will right things out....peace

best of luck and keep going with taper! im a 19 year oxy user my dose couple years ago was 2 80mgs ocycontin a day with 4 30mgs roxys and i would still supplement i remember a time i could take 150mgs at once and bearly feel it. Over the last year ive been tapering heavily. Now im at 3 15mgs roxy a day its kicking the shit at of me mostly mentally but after 19 years take it from me changes are coming, i have a 17 year old son i have been on oxys his whole life!. Ive been getting my plan together for a while kratom clonidine etc etc it will be soon for me because i cant seem to get any lower than 45mgs roxy daily good luck!

btw i know how hard it is to stop snortin roxy i have not snorted a roxy in a couple weeks funny thing its so fucking hard not to i actually would mix a half a blue xan with a half a 15 roxy just to get a little toot but bad habits must stop

 

[Nebuchadnezzar]

Rox That's a impressive drop. When I went off my Opana by half without Clonazepam I got a few hours sleep a week. I had been awake for two days when I learned about the Clonazepam I had in my med cabinet. That was with snorting short acting oxy's and lots of other stuff. Sounds like I should have had clonazepam from the start. I could never have dropped that fast. Keep us posted. Neb

 

[Nebuchadnezzar]

Last dose, This sounds familiar the last of my taper was hard cause I always felt like I was in withdrawal and the bit I took made it worse for me. I snorted the last 3 15 mg's I had at one time drank a bunch (again do not do that) smoked a lot of pot and the next day Benzoed up and felt better than the taper. The taper sucked. Speaking of snorting I had to fight the urge to snort clonazepam today 11 days off Opiates. I have snorted more in the time I have tapered than I did during 7 years of fairly responsible med regime. Stopping suck's. I have always sadly felt I was better than most people on these blog's because of how many attempt's people make to kick this drug. I am sorry I felt that way and have been extremely humbled. I had never tried to quit before due to the constant pain. I am ashamed of my haughtiness. I could never have imagined I could crush and snort the fast acting Hydromorphone EVER 7 years ago. How fast we change and adapt to get what we think we want or need. Stay with it. Neb

 

[Nebuchadnezzar]

ROX,

feel like I'm fighting Tyson in his prime....

Tyson can get your ear but this stuff get's everything we are. Keep up the fight. Neb

 

[the last dose]

Last dose, This sounds familiar the last of my taper was hard cause I always felt like I was in withdrawal and the bit I took made it worse for me. I snorted the last 3 15 mg's I had at one time drank a bunch (again do not do that) smoked a lot of pot and the next day Benzoed up and felt better than the taper. The taper sucked. Speaking of snorting I had to fight the urge to snort clonazepam today 11 days off Opiates. I have snorted more in the time I have tapered than I did during 7 years of fairly responsible med regime. Stopping suck's. I have always sadly felt I was better than most people on these blog's because of how many attempt's people make to kick this drug. I am sorry I felt that way and have been extremely humbled. I had never tried to quit before due to the constant pain. I am ashamed of my haughtiness. I could never have imagined I could crush and snort the fast acting Hydromorphone EVER 7 years ago. How fast we change and adapt to get what we think we want or need. Stay with it. Neb

Thanks Neb does sound similiar only different that ive been on oxy straight for 18 years daily, in pain man for my back. Hell yes i agree with so many people attempts here going thru detox many times longest i ever went was 18 hours its very humbling very. But sometimes i wish i did this before only because 18 years is a long fuckin time im no kid just not sure i can do it. good luck to you Neb!.

 

[Nebuchadnezzar]

Last dose, This is what I experienced with the Oxymorphone 120 mg a day I took for chronic Pain syndrome ya it's different than Your situation. What I noticed was my pain would increase when I took a dose. LIke my brain made the pain worse for about 15 minutes while it started kicking in. Then when I started even a small taper of my main meds which were 3 30 mg Opana's er my withdrawal went through the roof. But most of all even after just a drop of 1 30 mg Opana My pain level went to about as high as it ever reached in the seven years this pain has existed. I guess since my pain is all neuropathic (my brain just makes it up). The more I cut back the worse the pain got. It got insane because apparently Your brain is amazing and can make fake pain way better and more intense than any normal pain I have ever experienced. My point is since I added the Clonazepam (for withdrawal only) and weaned off all opiates my pain level has decreased. A lot. I read that this happens, that our brain gets so dependant on the opiates that it will increase are pain just to get another dose. I am not a Doc just someone who has had debilitating pain for just a third of the time of Your experience. I do not know for sure what has caused the pain to decrease. Sometimes it will let up for a while then kick back with a vengeance. I do know that the opiates messed with my pain level extremely while detoxing. If You can stand the temporary increase of pain during withdrawal You may find that Your pain is lower when done. At the least You can evaluate where Your real pain level is. I feel at least the last year for me the meds may have driven the pain levels much higher to get the next brain fix because I refused to up my dose. It could be Your ass kicking is due to Your brain wanting that top end dose You USED to give it. Has Your pain increased as You Tapered. I mean more than You may be expected. Could be related to what I experienced. If You go Opiate free please post the results. I am very interested because my pain levels increased so much through withdrawals I wanted to clock out especially without any relief from sleep. All I can say is I am defogging from 7 years of meds with a lower pain threshold than while using them. Everyone is different and I will say the first 5 years of meds most likely saved my life. It just seems we all know somehow when it is the right time to say maybe it's time to try kicking them to at least reassess the pain levels.
This could have some people mad because early on I had a Doc who lowered my already inadequate levels of pain meds TO ASSESS where I was. During that 2 month period my pain went further up my arm and never receded again. Creepy but I used to fantasize about whacking myself in front of Him in His little office so he could see exactly how much pain He was putting me through. One of my kids always showed up during this fantasy so I could not do it. Embarrassing but I hear a lot of people with intractable pain often fantasize about suicide as a escape mechanism. Point being everyone in chronic pain has to get relief somehow and for me pain killers were very necessary for me to survive the first 5 or 6 years. I just hit that point where I felt they were doing more harm than good. By the way so I do not mean to come across as self righteous. The real deal is athough I knew in my heart these meds were not right for me the last year. Withdrawals between doses was a clear sign. But I would still be filling my prescriptions knowing it was part of the problem. I realized I would not ever stop as long as they were prescribed. Do not mean to preach but I asked God to give me the meds as long as I needed them and then my pain clinic was closed and have not found a Doc to prescribe. Needless to say I was pretty mad at God. Like really mad but I followed My part of the deal kicking and screaming and snorting adding booz anything to kick whatever I had to take get the highest possible level. I am still kicking , screaming and crying but my pain is lower and I feel better than I have for the last 7 years. Sorry I keep writing these long posts but I guess I don't have another outlet with anyone who can understand just how this changes even conservative people. I guess what I tried to say is that only the pain patient knows when it is time to try a break from the meds. If it is the right time then You will not regret the detox.

Last dose, If You follow carefully all the recipes and wisdom on this blog You can get off them. My youngest is also 17. My four boys went through this with me and they got burned big time having to deal with all that this causes. I will give You this incentive. Both my wife and all the kids have commented that I am more like the dad they used to have. They can tell and so can I. If You want to know Your Son and him Know You and You can handle the pain levels it will make it worthwhile. It seemed more important to them than I would have ever expected to see me as they used to.

Anyone who experiences a short increase in your pain levels when You take Your dose please respond. A Doc told me I was crazy and that it was hogwash. I was wondering if I am nuts and I would feel alot better if someone else experienced this phenomenon. Neb

 

[the last dose]

Last dose, This is what I experienced with the Oxymorphone 120 mg a day I took for chronic Pain syndrome ya it's different than Your situation. What I noticed was my pain would increase when I took a dose. LIke my brain made the pain worse for about 15 minutes while it started kicking in. Then when I started even a small taper of my main meds which were 3 30 mg Opana's er my withdrawal went through the roof. But most of all even after just a drop of 1 30 mg Opana My pain level went to about as high as it ever reached in the seven years this pain has existed. I guess since my pain is all neuropathic (my brain just makes it up). The more I cut back the worse the pain got. It got insane because apparently Your brain is amazing and can make fake pain way better and more intense than any normal pain I have ever experienced. My point is since I added the Clonazepam (for withdrawal only) and weaned off all opiates my pain level has decreased. A lot. I read that this happens, that our brain gets so dependant on the opiates that it will increase are pain just to get another dose. I am not a Doc just someone who has had debilitating pain for just a third of the time of Your experience. I do not know for sure what has caused the pain to decrease. Sometimes it will let up for a while then kick back with a vengeance. I do know that the opiates messed with my pain level extremely while detoxing. If You can stand the temporary increase of pain during withdrawal You may find that Your pain is lower when done. At the least You can evaluate where Your real pain level is. I feel at least the last year for me the meds may have driven the pain levels much higher to get the next brain fix because I refused to up my dose. It could be Your ass kicking is due to Your brain wanting that top end dose You USED to give it. Has Your pain increased as You Tapered. I mean more than You may be expected. Could be related to what I experienced. If You go Opiate free please post the results. I am very interested because my pain levels increased so much through withdrawals I wanted to clock out especially without any relief from sleep. All I can say is I am defogging from 7 years of meds with a lower pain threshold than while using them. Everyone is different and I will say the first 5 years of meds most likely saved my life. It just seems we all know somehow when it is the right time to say maybe it's time to try kicking them to at least reassess the pain levels.
This could have some people mad because early on I had a Doc who lowered my already inadequate levels of pain meds TO ASSESS where I was. During that 2 month period my pain went further up my arm and never receded again. Creepy but I used to fantasize about whacking myself in front of Him in His little office so he could see exactly how much pain He was putting me through. One of my kids always showed up during this fantasy so I could not do it. Embarrassing but I hear a lot of people with intractable pain often fantasize about suicide as a escape mechanism. Point being everyone in chronic pain has to get relief somehow and for me pain killers were very necessary for me to survive the first 5 or 6 years. I just hit that point where I felt they were doing more harm than good. By the way so I do not mean to come across as self righteous. The real deal is athough I knew in my heart these meds were not right for me the last year. Withdrawals between doses was a clear sign. But I would still be filling my prescriptions knowing it was part of the problem. I realized I would not ever stop as long as they were prescribed. Do not mean to preach but I asked God to give me the meds as long as I needed them and then my pain clinic was closed and have not found a Doc to prescribe. Needless to say I was pretty mad at God. Like really mad but I followed My part of the deal kicking and screaming and snorting adding booz anything to kick whatever I had to take get the highest possible level. I am still kicking , screaming and crying but my pain is lower and I feel better than I have for the last 7 years. Sorry I keep writing these long posts but I guess I don't have another outlet with anyone who can understand just how this changes even conservative people. I guess what I tried to say is that only the pain patient knows when it is time to try a break from the meds. If it is the right time then You will not regret the detox.

Last dose, If You follow carefully all the recipes and wisdom on this blog You can get off them. My youngest is also 17. My four boys went through this with me and they got burned big time having to deal with all that this causes. I will give You this incentive. Both my wife and all the kids have commented that I am more like the dad they used to have. They can tell and so can I. If You want to know Your Son and him Know You and You can handle the pain levels it will make it worthwhile. It seemed more important to them than I would have ever expected to see me as they used to.

Anyone who experiences a short increase in your pain levels when You take Your dose please respond. A Doc told me I was crazy and that it was hogwash. I was wondering if I am nuts and I would feel alot better if someone else experienced this phenomenon. Neb

Neb i think your pain levels are higher than mine i have back problems i guess mainly from enjoying life too much playing hockey riding atvs etc. but i ended up with a bulging disc upper back and sciatica too (no spell checkin) Ive been thru the forced lowering of meds many times over the last 5 years but really i always tried to stay in front of them lowering myself before they do. So it never shocked my body that bad to be honest i never felt much till i started just using my roxys stopping my oxycontin myself then hell yes i feel withdrawls starting two hours before next dose. Ive weened myself down to 3 15mgs roxy a day really stuck there now though. I think your problems are coming from your meds opana is strong shit especially the halflife it has your best hope is shorter acting ops, they dont last as long but easier way off. I have always been here for my family really never got foggy from ops funny thing is my wife can tell when im on xan that really pisses her off she didnt find my story funny driving home from work once on xan i fell asleep at red light all the way till it turned red again woke up with three cars beepin at me lol. Now i only take LATE in day only, i have never gotten a rise in pain after taking meds crazy thing is i have not felt my meds in years even BIG doses but now that i weened down to just 15mgs roxy and take them in mild withdrawl my god i feel a rush and pain going away now on only 15mgs lol. Maybe switch to different meds i never took opana before but know what it is well they offered it in my pain man 5 or 6 years ago i stayed on oxys instead. hang in there bro your not nuts between these meds and pain levels ive heard crazier shit

 

[Nebuchadnezzar]

Last dose, I unlike You do not have anything physical that should be causing my pain. I had a simple carpal tunnel operation woke up with intense pain. They can find nothing wrong. I have (not proud of it) in my teens hit 3 telephone poles drunk. The pain I experienced was Normal pain of hitting another telephone pole. This pain from the operation is unlike anything I have ever experienced. I love HI FI and have a decent system it was my hobby and the music would cause severe pain, cold air to the skin any vibration. The freaky part is that it would rise like feedback if not controlled with pain meds and inactivity. I have ADHD so not using my hand and remaining still is difficult at best. When it rose like feedback it would get so painful and could go on for 3 or 4 days. The only way I could stop it was a large enough dose of meds to put me asleep and I guess when I woke my brain would reboot at a lower level of pain. I learned what set the pain to high levels and took as much of whatever the Doctors would give Me. There were lots of times a new doc would pull my meds for a period and it never phased me. 3 years into the nightmare I got Opana dosed it and I could function around my family and laugh. it was great for two years then the third started getting tricky because I did not want to raise the dose then it became counter productive. My point is I think You are right that the opana is different for me. That is why I asked a bunch of questions about Opana and if anyone else has had difficulties with it. I honestly could quit any of the prior pain meds without a problem with little to no withdrawals until the opana. I am at 14 days off everything but clonazepam 2 mg to 3 mg at most per day. Things seem a bit more difficult after the first week but it is tolerable now. I still have two 30 mg Opana's incase the pain does a feedback loop, i do not know how else to describe it. I am leary of Opana and would like to know If it is just my reaction to it or are there others. Like You I could take a whole days worth at once and not get high. Yet when My Opana was gone I took two of the oxycontin I was to use to wean of and I felt a buzz. Strange. Thanks for letting me vent it has been very helpful to me. Neb