• N&PD Moderators: Skorpio | thegreenhand

The new "abuse free opoid analgesic" BU08028

^ I can understand reinforcement without euphoria (implying other mechanism for reinforcement). Which drugs are euphoric, but not reinforcing?



I admit I don't know the exact mechanism for reinforcement, or euphoria for that matter, but logically thinking, reinforcement needn't come only from euphoria - there may be other mechanisms or reasons for reinforcement. So, a drug can be reinforcing but not euphoric, but it can't be euphoric but not reinforcing. I hope I'm wrong of course.

Psychedelics are the biggest example of all the major drug classes. To many people, me included, they have provided the most euphoria, beating any other drug experience. To be fair, every other major recreational drug class is reinforcing. I've long pondered why this could be so. The same drugs which we find reinforcing, lab mice do to. But I often wonder whether lab mice would find a psychedelic experience to be a rewarding one. Humans obviously have a much more complex brain than mice. Their prefrontal cortex is much bigger, for example. Maybe it could be this, the fact that psychedelics can only be appreciated by biological species with a certain brain complexity. The majority of heavily reinforcing experiences are hard to suppress, as shown with drug addiction. This stems from a need to survive, and thus actions which promote our survivability are generally reinforcing. Most drugs directly modulate the brain's reward circuitry (VTA-NAc projections) and thus bypass the need for the drug taking action to be evolutionarily useful.

I feel with psychedelics this doesn't happen. It doesn't feel reinforcing at all to me, and especially is completely distinct from the reinforcement I've experienced with other classes of drugs. I feel some of this may be attributed to the fact that the intriguing/amazement factor of the experience contributes much to the experience. I feel this "wow" factor is something which other species cannot experience at all to the same degree. I feel this could also explain why for many people their first (few) experience(s) with MDMA or any other serotonin-dopamine releaser is so much more profound than later experiences, and how some people are never ever able to recapture their first few experiences. I probably shouldn't complicate this post with MDMA though as that is strongly reinforcing. Could experiences like this cause euphoria through a mechanism other than the mesolimbic pathway, such that it is easier to suppress (i.e it is not reinforcing). I feel that experiences which are new and intriguing can be euphoric at first, maybe stemming from an evolutionary desire to explore, allowing us to survive better, but these experiences would not want to be repeated (you don't keep on exploring the same forest) as doing so does not increase surivivability.

Complete pseudoscientific theory crafting here but oh well.
 
I'd say the euphoria from psychedelics can't be compared with the euphoria from say opioids.

Reinforcing drugs seem to mess with a primitive part of us, like food or sugar. Meanwhile the fun from psychedelics seems more sophisticated, more complex as you said. I'd put it in the same league as any of the other "more complex behaviours that people enjoy doing" such as watching a cool movie, reading a cool book, collecting exotic beer bottles or studying insects.

What I'm saying is I don't think the fun from psychedelics is only about, say, what receptors they're binding to.

And also, psychedelics are not inherently enjoyable. I'm sure there are some people out there who dislike the mindfuck and confusion they cause. Not only that but they also can induce unpleasant experiences.

If you're someone who thinks psychedelics are evil you probably won't have fun doing acid, but even if you frown upon use of cocaine or heroin, those are still reinforcing and euphoric.
 
Psychedelics provide a sophisticated experience compared to, say, benzos or opioids. Psychedelic high can be pleasant, but it is often negative or rough as well. Then there's also the tolerance issue. And psychedelics (at least for me) are among the least functional drugs. You can take opioids, or smoke cannabis, and be able to function relatively well; definitely not the case with psychedelics. So I would say that all of those factors contribute to the person using psychedelics think twice before taking more the next day, or on a work day etc.
 
Could experiences like this cause euphoria through a mechanism other than the mesolimbic pathway, such that it is easier to suppress (i.e it is not reinforcing). I feel that experiences which are new and intriguing can be euphoric at first, maybe stemming from an evolutionary desire to explore, allowing us to survive better, but these experiences would not want to be repeated (you don't keep on exploring the same forest) as doing so does not increase surivivability.

There appears to be exceptions when it comes to the activation of VTA neurons leading to goal directed behavior http://www.nature.com/neuro/journal/vaop/ncurrent/full/nn.4377.html

Inhibition of VTA neurons prevents most goal directed behaviors/wakefulness but as far as the specific neurons there are exceptions. "inhibition of VTA dopaminergic neurons promoted goal-directed and sleep-related nesting behavior." And it might be that those particular neurons (not necessarily linked to euphoria, just theorycrafting here) ultimately have less connections with the circuitry of reinforcement/habituation/memory. But just as Aced points out, doing the same thing over and over doesn't always increase survivability, and you wouldn't want sleep-related nesting behavior to be very reinforcing because then the critters would spend all their time nesting and not much time actually sleeping. But it still might require some motivation to nest in the first place? Or is this a behavior that is simply a VTA circuit activating a circuit that coordinates nesting, and motivation to nest has nothing to do with it? I don't know if that makes sense because it seems like in order for a mouse to be weighing other actions (fleeing from a predator instead of nesting, or mating etc.) against nesting, the nesting behavior must have some "value" assigned, and this might be purely biological but there is a possible conscious correlate to that value that results in the feeling of motivation?

I'm wondering when we will discuss the perceived gap between feelings, actions and an apparent lack of free will. The relevance to this discussion being that we may think of ourselves as reacting to the feelings and then making a conscious decision/taking an action (So the relevance here is that BU makes someone feel good and they "choose" to take it again because they prefer that state, even if their "reinforcement" circuits aren't activated much), but isn't it possible that the feelings are there as a byproduct (that we are not truly, consciously reacting to our feelings) and then our decisions are already made regardless? For example, we tend to think that we repeat an action because it feels good. Isn't it possible that some neuronal activity like induced by opoids that leads to us feeling good simply activates the circuits that cause reinforcement, and that we're not consciously reacting to the euphoria but rather it is entirely neuronal and I don't want to say pre-determined (because of quantum randomness) but there is little room for the conscious feeling that is euphoria to intervene in behavior, the only thing that can intervene is the neuronal correlate of euphoria, and if there is a neuronal correlate of euphoria/motivation that ultimately leads to taking the drug that caused the euphoria/motivation again then you might label that a reinforcing circuit, if only an abnormal and relatively weak one. This could be a circuit much weaker in non-humans of course.

So I guess what I'm saying is if the mind can assign a "value" to it's current state in terms of whether it is a state it prefers or does not prefer, and then a person takes a drug that shifts the value grossly into the state that it prefers, will the conscious feeling that is euphoria lead to a more conscious decision (a decision made off of the value information rather than a habitual/compulsive sort of thing) to take that drug again and enter that preferable state again, OR does euphoria overlap with reinforcement and there is no way to simply choose to repeat an action more consciously? It could also be that the brain loses it's ability to decision make (weigh punishment vs. reward) with more typical reinforcing drugs like cocaine (which seem to cause deficits in an addiction related decision making center the orbitofrontal cortex, see wiki's good page https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orbitofrontal_cortex) and that psychedelics are more capable of causing just the euphoria without disrupting the orbitofrontal cortex and decision making areas.

As far as harm reduction, if the decision to take a drug or not take a drug is centered more around the higher functioning brain areas rather than the more limbic-ish system leading to compulsive actions/habituation, then it would probably be easier to choose to stop taking that drug when harm ensues, especially if the brain areas involved in detecting harm and changing behavior are still intact.

I hope this made some sense or spurs some thoughts, sorry I'm a little scrambled at the moment lol.
 
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As far the brain is concerned Analgesia Euphoria and Reinforcing are 3 differents things handled by different pathways. Mu opioid receptor activation triggers either beta arrestin recruitment or cAMP dependant phosphorylation of G-Protein inside the cell. Beta arrestin is associated with the reinforcing effect of MOR activation by opiates and not the analgesia and the euphoria. If you were to block the Beta arrestin pathway, you'll still get all the analgesia of opiates + EUPHORIA without the reinforcing.

Beta arrestin2 knock-out mice do not get addicted to morphine. Actually they enjoy it even more (increase sensitivity). They do not develop tolerance and the morphine-induced locomotor activity still intact. I guess since mice can't tell you they feeling euphoric, this is a good way to tell whether or not euphoria is still there in beta arrestin2-KO mice. If you assume Opiate stimulation of dopaminergic is responsible for the euphoria, then one would expect the euphoria also present in beta arrestin knock-out. They have increased morphine-induced striatal dopamine release comapred to their WT siblings!

Now the question is: can you design a compound MOR agonist that activate the receptor without triggering the beta arrestin pathway? You can't. or rather it is extremely difficult. The only thing you can possibly control is the binding of your opiate to the MOR receptor (outside the cell). What happen next is outside your control. And you can't just block beta arrestin protein or eliminate it altogether as in genetic engineered KO mice lacking beta arrestin2 gene!!


Actually beta arrestin KO mice are even more EUPHORIC (more morphine-induced striatal dopamine release).


The reinforcing and psychomotor effects of morphine involve opiate stimulation of the dopaminergic system via activation of mu-opioid receptors (muOR). Both mu-opioid and dopamine receptors are members of the G-protein-coupled receptor (GPCR) family of proteins. GPCRs are known to undergo desensitization involving phosphorylation of the receptor and the subsequent binding of beta(arrestins), which prevents further receptor-G-protein coupling. Mice lacking beta(arrestin)-2 (beta(arr2)) display enhanced sensitivity to morphine in tests of pain perception attributable to impaired desensitization of muOR. However, whether abrogating muOR desensitization affects the reinforcing and psychomotor properties of morphine has remained unexplored. In the present study, we examined this question by assessing the effects of morphine and cocaine on locomotor activity, behavioral sensitization, conditioned place preference, and striatal dopamine release in beta(arr2) knock-out (beta(arr2)-KO) mice and their wild-type (WT) controls. Cocaine treatment resulted in very similar neurochemical and behavioral responses between the genotypes. However, in the beta(arr2)-KO mice, morphine induced more pronounced increases in striatal extracellular dopamine than in WT mice. .Moreover, the rewarding properties of morphine in the conditioned place preference test were greater in the beta(arr2)-KO mice when compared with the WT mice Thus, beta(arr2) appears to play a more important role in the dopaminergic effects mediated by morphine than those induced by cocaine...
"Enhanced rewarding properties of morphine, but not cocaine, in beta(arrestin)-2 knock-out mice" https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14614085


...β-Arrestins, including β-arrestin 1 and β-arrestin 2, are highly expressed in the central nervous system (CNS) [4] and their critical role in regulating MOR in the CNS has been demonstrated. In β-arrestin 2 knockout mice, the antinociceptive effects of morphine are remarkably enhanced and prolonged, while the tolerance to the antinociceptive effects is significantly attenuated in both hot-plate and tail-flick tests [5,6] with the mechanisms of desensitization of the MOR... blabla blabla..
Li Y, Liu X, Liu C, Kang J, Yang J, Pei G, Wu C (March 2009). "Improvement of morphine-mediated analgesia by inhibition of β-arrestin2 expression in mice periaqueductal gray matter". International Journal of Molecular Sciences. 10 (3): 954–63. doi:10.3390/ijms10030954. PMC 2672012free to read. PMID 19399231. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2672012/
 
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'Actually beta arrestin KO mice are even more EUPHORIC (more morphine-induced striatal dopamine release)'

*Enter LC, wearing a pair of dark shades and one of his longest black leather trenchcoats and looking in NO WAY stereotypically like a stereotypical drug pusher*

'oi mate!, wanna buy some mice at a knockdown price? these are REALLY euphoric mice mate, I got the best mice in the city. New press, these white mice, they are fucking strong, don't swallow more than one at a time, or they can really bite hard. Or got 'yer brown mice 'ere for sale yo mate, sell you any mice? now I don't normally sell these to customers, but you look like a special customer to me, so tell you what I'll do. I'll let you buy some of my rare albino mice. Word on the street is the name people are using is 'pink eyes', almost the strongest you can get! Or, if you need something with a real kick, try these, 'piebalds'. Best of both worlds. Came from a government testing lab, they're both smacky AND get you wired. Trust me, these will really rattle your cage!'

Biased agonists that activate the cAMP pathway without, or with minimal recruitment of beta-arrestin 2 DO exist.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RB-64 (although not sure if I'd touch this one. Do thiocyanates have the covalent binding property with receptor targets that isothiocyanates do?)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herkinorin
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBNtxA This one, 3-iodobenzoylnaltrexamine, is most interesting. Whilst AFAIK the unusual spectrum of effects is not due to beta-arrestin 2 recruitment differences vs one's bog standard MOR agonist opioids, but due to preferential modulation of alternately spliced MOR isoforms and/or binding to hybrid receptor types where MOR associates as a receptor complex with other other receptor families. Produces neither place-preference nor place-conditioned aversive associations with use, no constipation and no respiratory depression.
 
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So, imagine you can separate reinforcement and euphoria in a drug. So you'll have a drug, which produces euphoria, but one that people don't take often or at all following the first experience. Seems kind of counterproductive to me tbh.
 
I don't think that humans could experience profound euphoria without wanting to repeat the experience, even if it is not from a normal reinforcement circuit that they make that decision (maybe it could come from a much more cognitive circuit and not the limbic system).

Reposting my earlier post that may have been missed:
Could experiences like this cause euphoria through a mechanism other than the mesolimbic pathway, such that it is easier to suppress (i.e it is not reinforcing). I feel that experiences which are new and intriguing can be euphoric at first, maybe stemming from an evolutionary desire to explore, allowing us to survive better, but these experiences would not want to be repeated (you don't keep on exploring the same forest) as doing so does not increase surivivability.

There appears to be exceptions when it comes to the activation of VTA neurons leading to goal directed behavior http://www.nature.com/neuro/journal/vaop/ncurrent/full/nn.4377.html

Inhibition of VTA neurons prevents most goal directed behaviors/wakefulness but as far as the specific neurons there are exceptions. "inhibition of VTA dopaminergic neurons promoted goal-directed and sleep-related nesting behavior." And it might be that those particular neurons (not necessarily linked to euphoria, just theorycrafting here) ultimately have less connections with the circuitry of reinforcement/habituation/memory. But just as Aced points out, doing the same thing over and over doesn't always increase survivability, and you wouldn't want sleep-related nesting behavior to be very reinforcing because then the critters would spend all their time nesting and not much time actually sleeping. But it still might require some motivation to nest in the first place? Or is this a behavior that is simply a VTA circuit activating a circuit that coordinates nesting, and motivation to nest has nothing to do with it? I don't know if that makes sense because it seems like in order for a mouse to be weighing other actions (fleeing from a predator instead of nesting, or mating etc.) against nesting, the nesting behavior must have some "value" assigned, and this might be purely biological but there is a possible conscious correlate to that value that results in the feeling of motivation?

I'm wondering when we will discuss the perceived gap between feelings, actions and an apparent lack of free will. The relevance to this discussion being that we may think of ourselves as reacting to the feelings and then making a conscious decision/taking an action (So the relevance here is that BU makes someone feel good and they "choose" to take it again because they prefer that state, even if their "reinforcement" circuits aren't activated much), but isn't it possible that the feelings are there as a byproduct (that we are not truly, consciously reacting to our feelings) and then our decisions are already made regardless? For example, we tend to think that we repeat an action because it feels good. Isn't it possible that some neuronal activity like induced by opoids that leads to us feeling good simply activates the circuits that cause reinforcement, and that we're not consciously reacting to the euphoria but rather it is entirely neuronal and I don't want to say pre-determined (because of quantum randomness) but there is little room for the conscious feeling that is euphoria to intervene in behavior, the only thing that can intervene is the neuronal correlate of euphoria, and if there is a neuronal correlate of euphoria/motivation that ultimately leads to taking the drug that caused the euphoria/motivation again then you might label that a reinforcing circuit, if only an abnormal and relatively weak one. This could be a circuit much weaker in non-humans of course.

So I guess what I'm saying is if the mind can assign a "value" to it's current state in terms of whether it is a state it prefers or does not prefer, and then a person takes a drug that shifts the value grossly into the state that it prefers, will the conscious feeling that is euphoria lead to a more conscious decision (a decision made off of the value information rather than a habitual/compulsive sort of thing) to take that drug again and enter that preferable state again, OR does euphoria overlap with reinforcement and there is no way to simply choose to repeat an action more consciously? It could also be that the brain loses it's ability to decision make (weigh punishment vs. reward) with more typical reinforcing drugs like cocaine (which seem to cause deficits in an addiction related decision making center the orbitofrontal cortex, see wiki's good page https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orbitofrontal_cortex) and that psychedelics are more capable of causing just the euphoria without disrupting the orbitofrontal cortex and decision making areas.

As far as harm reduction, if the decision to take a drug or not take a drug is centered more around the higher functioning brain areas rather than the more limbic-ish system leading to compulsive actions/habituation, then it would probably be easier to choose to stop taking that drug when harm ensues, especially if the brain areas involved in detecting harm and changing behavior are still intact.

I hope this made some sense or spurs some thoughts, sorry I'm a little scrambled at the moment lol.
 
I agree totally in that it would be a good thing to have available (indeed, a REAL painkiller, over the counter would be a very good thing, especially if capable of holding people with opioid habits)

BUT I do see a big pitfall. If it is available for prescription it will near always be prescribed in preference to the ones we have now. The addictive, but damned well euphoric, enjoyable, if dependence inducing, withdrawal-potentially-causing, overdosable, but nod-able, murine-place-preference-inductive, munt-fuel we know and love. Doctors are not going to give those in pain, nor those who want to get high, or those who are both, enjoyable opiates, because a non-euphoric one is available, even if this were indeed still addictive or dependence-formation-capable. Because everybody but those who use recreational reinforcing substances for pleasure, and some of their friends or SOs hates on people like us, and whats more, also upon any recreational or pleasurable substance other than alcohol or nicotine. Almost like a leftover disgusting fragment of judeo-xtian self-hating guilt syndrome, where indulgence is viewed as sinful. Puritan fucking garbage, but its inflicted upon those who wish to partake in nothing of the styxbeshitten sort of such pathetic post-puritan religiomaniacal twattage.
 
I don't think that humans could experience profound euphoria without wanting to repeat the experience, even if it is not from a normal reinforcement circuit that they make that decision (maybe it could come from a much more cognitive circuit and not the limbic system).

I'm of the same opinion.
 
I don't think that humans could experience profound euphoria without wanting to repeat the experience, even if it is not from a normal reinforcement circuit that they make that decision (maybe it could come from a much more cognitive circuit and not the limbic system).

I would have to disagree with this. Personally, the drugs which have given me the most euphoria, I have less innate desire for compared to some other drugs, suggesting wanting and pleasure can be differentiated.

I reckon profound euphoria can be experienced from a drug, but if the drug does not induce the same alterations in genetic expression and nerve cell structure that addictive drugs do, then we are able to make a much more conscious and free will type choice (rather than an intense craving resulting in taking the drug even when people know it will negatively impact themselves, their family, job, societal standing and even life). I'll use LSD as a specific example. For many it causes intense euphoria. But most can suppress the prepotent response to take it again very easily. They might think "I've got work tomorrow, I know I won't be able to perform sufficiently if I take a dose, therefore I won't take a dose tomorrow". With a drug like cocaine that causes alterations in nerve structure like increased dendritic spine density, the prepotent response might not be as easy to suppress. Even though people might think "taking more cocaine tomorrow at work is not a good decision", their executive neurons cannot sufficiently inhibit the neurons (strengthened by cocaine exposure) that allow for goal-directed behaviour.

In fact we might then try to rationalise continued use of cocaine. "It'll improve my performance at work" is one example. Cocaine along with other psychostimulants might well improve task performance, (e.g working memory: D1 activation of inhibitory neurons silence neighbouring neurons which do not represent the stimulus, and increase the signal to noise ratio). But of course the dose of cocaine is likely to be quite high (excessive D1 activation suppresses all cells representing the stimulus, thus hinders working memory). Once it shortly wears off we'll be fiending for more. It's likely to cost a chunk of your work money itself. Let's not forget the physical negative effects from excessive sympathetic activation and also the cardiovascular complications arising from its ability to block sodium ion channels and impair impulse conduction in the heart. We know this but we will either ignore or rationalise. Addicts know that their habits are destructive, they know that very well. But they simply can't suppress their actions. This is what I mean when a drug can be euphoric but we still hold a good amount of "will power" to prevent ourselves from taking another dose when required.

See, euphoria is caused first, and only then comes reinforcement. Think of this at a sub-cellular level. As DotChem mentioned, b-arrestin knockout mice are not reinforced by morphine. It could be that b-arrestin is recruited when euphoria is caused by a certain biochemical pathway, and this results in activation of another pathway which results in reinforcement. Nestler showed that Delta FosB induction is caused by all addictive drugs. But the gene for delta FosB needs to be activated and transcribed. What I'm trying to say is that there is definitely potential for this to be stopped. There are likely a number of molecular targets which could be modulated in such a way to prevent reinforcement of a rewarding experience. And also that there might be drugs which can provide a rewarding experience without causing reinforcement (at least to the same degree). I hope this made some sense.
 
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I'd like to add to this discussion the aspect of the current state of mind - in other words, if you're choosing between your normal state and a drug induced state, then whether or not the drug induced state is preferable to the point of compulsively needing to be in that state depends on your normal.

I think that the reason for less desire to compulsively use psychedelics comes from some of the negatives of psychedelics though - so for example if you could capture the cognitive state that is psychedelic induced euphoria (and whatever else is experienced at that point in the trip where euphoria is encountered) and make a switch so that with a flip of a switch you would assume that psychedelic euphoria state, I think you would find that some people would use it compulsively, and if it wasn't used compulsively long term then you might chalk that up to there being negatives (people like feeling grounded or physical/mental uncomfortability etc.).

But my main point is that substances aren't statically addictive separate from the environment and average state of the human. If the human is in a shitty environment or feels like shit normally (physical pain or mental anguish/depression) then that creature could definitely compulsively want psychedelic euphoria.
 
I'd like to add to this discussion the aspect of the current state of mind - in other words, if you're choosing between your normal state and a drug induced state, then whether or not the drug induced state is preferable to the point of compulsively needing to be in that state depends on your normal.

I think that the reason for less desire to compulsively use psychedelics comes from some of the negatives of psychedelics though - so for example if you could capture the cognitive state that is psychedelic induced euphoria (and whatever else is experienced at that point in the trip where euphoria is encountered) and make a switch so that with a flip of a switch you would assume that psychedelic euphoria state, I think you would find that some people would use it compulsively, and if it wasn't used compulsively long term then you might chalk that up to there being negatives (people like feeling grounded or physical/mental uncomfortability etc.).

But my main point is that substances aren't statically addictive separate from the environment and average state of the human. If the human is in a shitty environment or feels like shit normally (physical pain or mental anguish/depression) then that creature could definitely compulsively want psychedelic euphoria.

I edited my post. I see where you're making your point which I partly agree. If we were stuck in a box with just food and water, we might want to compulsively use psychedelics. But most people live a life where they have commitments, and these commitments require that they are not intoxicated by psychedelics. And most people can easily suppress the thought of using a psychedelic compared to a more reinforcing drug like cocaine when to be honest taking the psychedelic would probably be the healthier option.

I guess I'm trying to say, with some drugs such as psychedelics, we have a real choice whether or not we take it, and it is easy to chose not to, and this choice really isn't there with reinforcing drugs.
 
I see your edited post, good posts and good points - at this point I feel it may be helpful to clarify some terms (like reinforcing) and add a couple more specific terms that might be more helpful, for example craving, cue, etc. because in traditional reinforcement, amplification of craving and hyper development of visual cues that then trigger craving seem to be a large issue - I doubt that LSD can really produce cravings like is seen in that of a opiate/meth addict, now that being said there are recreational hard drug users, so concerning the "most people have commitments and can suppress the thought of doing psychedelics all the time whereas cocaine is hard to suppress" sort of notion, I think one confounding factor there is that the type of person who is running from personal demons/mental illness/traumas would be much more likely to have a bad trip and thus LSD wouldn't be a reinforcing drug for them (unless we're just talking about flipping that switch that guarantees just LSD euphoria) and then the nature of the cocaine trip is just more pure euphoria, not too much can go wrong. The other thing to consider is that the people who are not very likely to have bad trips (and are more likely to use LSD instead of cocaine) are probably much more sound mentally and environmentally and are much more committed to their job and societal standing etc and they acknowledge the stigma that hard drugs are very addicting and hard to control. So basically a certain type of person goes for LSD and a certain type of person goes for cocaine - the LSD type person is more resistant to addiction and setting aside life goals and then the cocaine person is the opposite, and the cocaine person can't really ruin the "LSD is non-addicting" stigma because of bad trips/tolerance issues essentially.

If reinforcement may be construed as a wider encouragement of repeating of an action, then I suppose anything that people do and then want to do again is reinforcing, but of course the degree of reinforcement matters (we wouldn't want to use the term until we wear it out). If mice are choosing a drug over food and water to the point of death than that is probably the epitome of reinforcing. But as I recall the experiments where mice made such an unhealthy decision were redone in a cage/environment for the mice that was much more stimulating, toys to play with, other mice in the cage etc. and the mice showed little interest in the drug. I hope I'm recalling correctly. So that would be an example of reinforcement being dependent on the average state of the mice. Now let's explore how average states can vary.

We may move to the mental illness category, OCD probably being an okay example of people who are driven to do things that they often acknowledge don't make sense and don't improve their lives, and often are really destroying their lives, yet there is no drug involved (no euphoria we may presume, maybe just anxiety relief). So maybe the OCD is "scratching an itch", maybe a parallel with nicotine here. But anyways, checking that lock 10 times every 10 minutes because it helps quell their fear of someone breaking in again and having another traumatic experience because they forgot to lock the door (random example). There might be a term for this, not chasing positive emotion but running away from negative emotion (escapism?), but we may assume that the running away from negative emotion (in this case by locking the doors) is reinforcing if it does decrease negative emotions, and someone who was just finding out they could decrease their negative emotions with a tactic like this might lock their doors more and more often - would we say this action (locking the doors) is reinforcing for that individual?

I hope that opens up this discussion involving reinforcement to the aspect of not just chasing euphoria but running away from shitty thoughts/feelings (which is indeed the case for some addicts in my experience, essentially escapism).

So my notion: euphoria/improvement of mood with substances and reinforcement are somewhat inseparable in higher cognitive beings regardless of typical addiction related neuroplasticity like DeltaFosB etc because the mind, separate of typical reinforcing circuitry involving visual cues/cravings etc, can put a value on which mental states we prefer to be in just purely as a normal memory, not an addiction related neuroplasticity enhanced memory. Then, we compare the memory of how we felt on the drug (which could be altered further with hard drugs/disruption of brain function) to our present feelings, weigh the consequences of taking a drug in the present moment (consequences being weighed by a brain area known to be disrupted by cocaine, and consequences of missing work etc. involving most brain areas probably) and weigh the benefits of taking the drug (which is altered by dysfunctional brain areas as well, dopamine mediating expectation of reward etc).

So if you look in the above parenthesis, I tried to highlight the probable differences between LSD euphoria type drugs and cocaine etc type drugs. LSD euphoria might not alter some of our mechanisms by which we judge whether it's better to take the drug or to remain sober and continue our professional lives, but it's still possible that flipping that LSD euphoria switch too often for too long could incur some of the same neural/behavioral changes that we see in hard drug addicts.

But yeah basically LSD euphoria is hard to use as an example of a drug that causes non reinforcing euphoria because of the nature of LSD and how that interacts with certain humans. But my main point is we could expand this discussion beyond what we observe in the animal studies, those animals might be much less sensitive to atypical reinforcing effects.

If a scientist absolutely knew (because of the science involved), that taking a drug would give them extreme euphoria for 12 hours, but at the end of the trip all memory of the trip would be "deleted", don't you think they would want to use the substance again once they contemplated the science and knew that they were going to be euphoric for 12 hours again before they had their memories erased? It would be easy for them to continue their professional lives but if they had nothing to accomplish, no responsibilities, one might assume they would use that substance quite a lot. So even with no memory of the euphoria a substance could be reinforcing given that the person is in a certain environment with a psyche that can understand the substance will give absolute euphoria and that they have nothing else they should do and they're not sternly against hedonism ;)

Now if we switch this to a substance that gives a relatively mild euphoria but recollection is fully intact (my LSD switch device), reinforcement could develop as well, but through a more higher functioning sort of route rather than through the limbic system generating cravings/withdrawals and potent reactions to visual cues sort of route.

Hope I'm not rambling too much.
 
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Interesting discussion of addiction. One important point is that reinforcement isn't the sole factor driving drug intake, because reinforcement can eventually fade away after long-term continuous drug use. Eventually, the motor behaviors associated with drug intake become so hard-wired that drug use becomes habitual and may not always be guided by conscious thought. This change to habitual use is governed by synaptic plasticity in the dorsolateral striatum. Neurons in the dorsolateral striatum receive sensory input and in turn can activate premotor regions that execute action sequences. So eventually if there is enough of an increase in dorsolateral striatal synaptic plasticity, then the sensory cues associated with drug use will be able to automatically activate striatal neurons that can drive execution of action sequences required for drug intake. This effect is very well known with nicotine, where addicts will light another cigarette without actually consciously thinking about it.

One problem with the example given earlier about the scientist loosing their memory is that their drug use would never transition to addiction. They might become dependent on such a substance and experience withdrawal (to the extent that a withdrawal syndrome is possible with the compound), but they will never be addicted to it -- almost all the processes underlying addiction are driven by changes that are basically examples of learning and memory -- changes in synaptic structure, neural connectivity, and protein expression.
 
Thanks for the input Serotonin :) The motor habituation factor certainly explains why people use drugs long after the euphoric effects are gone.

I'm hoping you can comment on the notion of LSD euphoria being non-reinforcing or non-addicting. If you experienced LSD euphoria chronically, shouldn't there be some addiction related neuroplasticity that causes a state of addiction in some manner of speaking? I understand LSD is a crappy example - feel free to try to address the underlying discussion of "does euphoria always cause addiction states" or something like that.

It seems like significant disruption of neural oscillations by LSD (for example) could impact the ability of the brain to develop the biological changes that would cause a state of addiction, so I think that would be one point for Team LSD Euphoria is Non-Addicting. But if we are thinking that the scientist who can't remember his 12 hour euphoria trip doesn't develop addiction because the ability to learn/change biologically is required to enter a true addictive state, then one might propose any euphoria can lead to addiction as long as the memory of it is intact and can connect with stimuli that can later serve as a cue that leads to action sequences. So maybe LSD euphoria is just not very addicting/reinforcing? (Bad trips etc. aside)

I understand that LSD in particular could be very hard to study in anything but humans, especially if there is a big novelty/amazement factor or slight ego loss contributing to LSD's pleasant effects.
 
What do you make of sex? AFAIK there are very few people who get addicted to sex. I mean truly addicted! to the point of being unable to function 24/7. But an earth-shaking orgasm can be as "wildy euphoric" as far as the brain is concerned. So it should in theory be reinforcing since the brain uses the same mesolimbic reward system activated by opiates and stims. So is sugar and other palatable food. Now, why is the urge to repeat more and more the experience of sex (or food) is somewhat less than say meth? is it because it is less euphoric? Not really. IMO the brain has evolved a feedback mechanism to prevent imprinting that (highly) euphoric memory of sex or food experience in a endless loop of: Experience this Brain state-Feel-Good-Experience the state again-Feel Good..etc. One can think of kappa opioids receptors KOR activation. kappa activation is DYSPHORIC the exact polar opposite of EUPHORIA. KOR agonists induces aversion (the mental equivalent of the "yuck-est" vomit!) Why would the brain evolve a pathway for aversion? It could simply use the absence of euphoria. Could it be that KOR are activated along with euphoria-mediating mesolembic dopaminergic armada in the presence of natural stimulus such as sex or food so as to provide a balanced euphoric-dysphoric experience to be shelved in memory for reuse later. The pathway mediating LPT triggered by sex probably diverge from the one triggered by exogenous drugs. I mean they both generate euphoria via the same mechanism but one is reinforcing the other not so much..
 
I see your edited post, good posts and good points - at this point I feel it may be helpful to clarify some terms (like reinforcing) and add a couple more specific terms that might be more helpful, for example craving, cue, etc. because in traditional reinforcement, amplification of craving and hyper development of visual cues that then trigger craving seem to be a large issue - I doubt that LSD can really produce cravings like is seen in that of a opiate/meth addict, now that being said there are recreational hard drug users, so concerning the "most people have commitments and can suppress the thought of doing psychedelics all the time whereas cocaine is hard to suppress" sort of notion, I think one confounding factor there is that the type of person who is running from personal demons/mental illness/traumas would be much more likely to have a bad trip and thus LSD wouldn't be a reinforcing drug for them (unless we're just talking about flipping that switch that guarantees just LSD euphoria) and then the nature of the cocaine trip is just more pure euphoria, not too much can go wrong. The other thing to consider is that the people who are not very likely to have bad trips (and are more likely to use LSD instead of cocaine) are probably much more sound mentally and environmentally and are much more committed to their job and societal standing etc and they acknowledge the stigma that hard drugs are very addicting and hard to control. So basically a certain type of person goes for LSD and a certain type of person goes for cocaine - the LSD type person is more resistant to addiction and setting aside life goals and then the cocaine person is the opposite, and the cocaine person can't really ruin the "LSD is non-addicting" stigma because of bad trips/tolerance issues essentially.

If reinforcement may be construed as a wider encouragement of repeating of an action, then I suppose anything that people do and then want to do again is reinforcing, but of course the degree of reinforcement matters (we wouldn't want to use the term until we wear it out). If mice are choosing a drug over food and water to the point of death than that is probably the epitome of reinforcing. But as I recall the experiments where mice made such an unhealthy decision were redone in a cage/environment for the mice that was much more stimulating, toys to play with, other mice in the cage etc. and the mice showed little interest in the drug. I hope I'm recalling correctly. So that would be an example of reinforcement being dependent on the average state of the mice. Now let's explore how average states can vary.

We may move to the mental illness category, OCD probably being an okay example of people who are driven to do things that they often acknowledge don't make sense and don't improve their lives, and often are really destroying their lives, yet there is no drug involved (no euphoria we may presume, maybe just anxiety relief). So maybe the OCD is "scratching an itch", maybe a parallel with nicotine here. But anyways, checking that lock 10 times every 10 minutes because it helps quell their fear of someone breaking in again and having another traumatic experience because they forgot to lock the door (random example). There might be a term for this, not chasing positive emotion but running away from negative emotion (escapism?), but we may assume that the running away from negative emotion (in this case by locking the doors) is reinforcing if it does decrease negative emotions, and someone who was just finding out they could decrease their negative emotions with a tactic like this might lock their doors more and more often - would we say this action (locking the doors) is reinforcing for that individual?

I hope that opens up this discussion involving reinforcement to the aspect of not just chasing euphoria but running away from shitty thoughts/feelings (which is indeed the case for some addicts in my experience, essentially escapism).

So my notion: euphoria/improvement of mood with substances and reinforcement are somewhat inseparable in higher cognitive beings regardless of typical addiction related neuroplasticity like DeltaFosB etc because the mind, separate of typical reinforcing circuitry involving visual cues/cravings etc, can put a value on which mental states we prefer to be in just purely as a normal memory, not an addiction related neuroplasticity enhanced memory. Then, we compare the memory of how we felt on the drug (which could be altered further with hard drugs/disruption of brain function) to our present feelings, weigh the consequences of taking a drug in the present moment (consequences being weighed by a brain area known to be disrupted by cocaine, and consequences of missing work etc. involving most brain areas probably) and weigh the benefits of taking the drug (which is altered by dysfunctional brain areas as well, dopamine mediating expectation of reward etc).

So if you look in the above parenthesis, I tried to highlight the probable differences between LSD euphoria type drugs and cocaine etc type drugs. LSD euphoria might not alter some of our mechanisms by which we judge whether it's better to take the drug or to remain sober and continue our professional lives, but it's still possible that flipping that LSD euphoria switch too often for too long could incur some of the same neural/behavioral changes that we see in hard drug addicts.

But yeah basically LSD euphoria is hard to use as an example of a drug that causes non reinforcing euphoria because of the nature of LSD and how that interacts with certain humans. But my main point is we could expand this discussion beyond what we observe in the animal studies, those animals might be much less sensitive to atypical reinforcing effects.

If a scientist absolutely knew (because of the science involved), that taking a drug would give them extreme euphoria for 12 hours, but at the end of the trip all memory of the trip would be "deleted", don't you think they would want to use the substance again once they contemplated the science and knew that they were going to be euphoric for 12 hours again before they had their memories erased? It would be easy for them to continue their professional lives but if they had nothing to accomplish, no responsibilities, one might assume they would use that substance quite a lot. So even with no memory of the euphoria a substance could be reinforcing given that the person is in a certain environment with a psyche that can understand the substance will give absolute euphoria and that they have nothing else they should do and they're not sternly against hedonism ;)

Now if we switch this to a substance that gives a relatively mild euphoria but recollection is fully intact (my LSD switch device), reinforcement could develop as well, but through a more higher functioning sort of route rather than through the limbic system generating cravings/withdrawals and potent reactions to visual cues sort of route.

Hope I'm not rambling too much.

I don't think the high functioning reinforcement you describe has ever been observed in humans. Yes, obviously we'll turn on a switch that placed us in a constant ecstatic headspace. My point is that if there is a need to suppress this the drug taking (e.g in order to fulfill commitments) in the high functioning reinforcement, this is easily done, but it is not easily done with limbic system type reinforcement. If there truly was no need to suppress the drug taking, then sure, we would take it forever (provided it can be sustained forever; no drug can do this at the moment) but that rarely is the case.

So yeah, I guess the main difference would be much more conscious control over the high functioning reinforcement you describe. The limbic system type reinforcement has its roots in evolution and to be able to control it would have been selected against a long time ago.
 
I think that some people do have quite sizeable issues with such rewards like sex/gambling, of course it's very amplified in the presence of dopaminergics and it could be that dopamine enhances the memorability/addiction aspect as well as the euphoria. But yeah I just wanted to chime in that I think sex addiction can be a real problem but most people realize that in order to get sex regularly they have to be able to attract someone, which involves upkeep of ones life including a place to live which involves a job and so forth. Internet/video game addiction, pornography/masturbation addiction, gambling addiction, food addiction, they all can be pretty severe and have extremely negative effects on your life direction, situation, and health, yet people continue their addictions.
 
If a scientist absolutely knew (because of the science involved), that taking a drug would give them extreme euphoria for 12 hours, but at the end of the trip all memory of the trip would be "deleted", don't you think they would want to use the substance again once they contemplated the science and knew that they were going to be euphoric for 12 hours again before they had their memories erased? It would be easy for them to continue their professional lives but if they had nothing to accomplish, no responsibilities, one might assume they would use that substance quite a lot. So even with no memory of the euphoria a substance could be reinforcing given that the person is in a certain environment with a psyche that can understand the substance will give absolute euphoria and that they have nothing else they should do and they're not sternly against hedonism ;)

I just thought really hard about this and I genuinely think that if I were in that position I would definitely not take the drug. It's quite hard to explain why, but I guess the simplest way to explain it is that there is no point of undergoing an experience if you cannot have any recollection of it, in my opinion. If you can't remember any of it, can it even be called an experience?

Yeah, try think about it real hard. We're in the future and something like this has been developed. You've finished your week and now it's a Saturday and you've got the whole day free. You're going to go into a device and close your eyes. You'll then open your eyes, 24 hours later, with absolutely no recollection of what happened in those 24 hours. Then you return back to normal. Would you do this? Probably not, it's a waste of 24 hours. Even if in those 24 hours you experienced the greatest euphoria of your life...it's weird even thinking about it but it's still a waste of time, in my opinion. It's hard to explain why, for sure.
 
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