The LSD Dilemma

[Foreigner]

I've done a lot of LSD in the past 5 years, perhaps too much. I do agree that bad LSD trips are ultimately a learning experience, but I also feel that that's sugar coating it a little bit. You can always retroactively re-frame ANY life experience to try and look for the silver lining, but my honest opinion based on my bad trips is that they do have a "fuck you up" potential that can last for a very long time in one's psyche. One big reason to do LSD is that it enhances novelty in the brain to an extreme degree, along with neuroplasticity. If, during that neuroplastic state, there is a lot of negativity inserted, then that has the potential to be retained for the long-term.

In my case, subsequent LSD trips that were positive helped to reboot my psyche. These follow up trips were setup with extreme care and included days worth of proper mental preparation.

It's a bit folly to boil it all down to neurons in thinking that a neurochemical reaction will occur which repairs your bad experience. Whether you look at it neurologically, spiritually, or whatever... it's all "you", so there's no point in compartmentalizing. You have to look at this as an experiential whole, which means a proper setup that facilitates a positive, interactive trip as much as possible.

To boil it down... you can live your way out of the negative headspace by having continued positive life experiences which insert new connections and awarenesses, or you could do another LSD trip to reset neuroplasticity and try to insert something positive into the middle of all that. It all comes down to whether or not you can control your fear and just let it happen. But regardless, it's possible to de-bug this through more than one avenue. You don't need LSD to do it, but it could be helpful.

 

[pupnik]

I've done a lot of LSD in the past 5 years, perhaps too much. I do agree that bad LSD trips are ultimately a learning experience, but I also feel that that's sugar coating it a little bit. You can always retroactively re-frame ANY life experience to try and look for the silver lining, but my honest opinion based on my bad trips is that they do have a "fuck you up" potential that can last for a very long time in one's psyche. One big reason to do LSD is that it enhances novelty in the brain to an extreme degree, along with neuroplasticity. If, during that neuroplastic state, there is a lot of negativity inserted, then that has the potential to be retained for the long-term.

In my case, subsequent LSD trips that were positive helped to reboot my psyche. These follow up trips were setup with extreme care and included days worth of proper mental preparation.

It's a bit folly to boil it all down to neurons in thinking that a neurochemical reaction will occur which repairs your bad experience. Whether you look at it neurologically, spiritually, or whatever... it's all "you", so there's no point in compartmentalizing. You have to look at this as an experiential whole, which means a proper setup that facilitates a positive, interactive trip as much as possible.

To boil it down... you can live your way out of the negative headspace by having continued positive life experiences which insert new connections and awarenesses, or you could do another LSD trip to reset neuroplasticity and try to insert something positive into the middle of all that. It all comes down to whether or not you can control your fear and just let it happen. But regardless, it's possible to de-bug this through more than one avenue. You don't need LSD to do it, but it could be helpful.

extremely well thought out...
except as regards controlling fear:
or anything else in the moment - habits kick in.
so the secret is to practice something useful
that it may kick in at the right time, and not something else.
the most useful habit to work on is relaxing and watching what's happening without reacting.
not easy to do, even when sober, but it is the most useful investment.

 

[whiteroom67]

I've done a lot of LSD in the past 5 years, perhaps too much. I do agree that bad LSD trips are ultimately a learning experience, but I also feel that that's sugar coating it a little bit. You can always retroactively re-frame ANY life experience to try and look for the silver lining, but my honest opinion based on my bad trips is that they do have a "fuck you up" potential that can last for a very long time in one's psyche. One big reason to do LSD is that it enhances novelty in the brain to an extreme degree, along with neuroplasticity. If, during that neuroplastic state, there is a lot of negativity inserted, then that has the potential to be retained for the long-term.

In my case, subsequent LSD trips that were positive helped to reboot my psyche. These follow up trips were setup with extreme care and included days worth of proper mental preparation.

It's a bit folly to boil it all down to neurons in thinking that a neurochemical reaction will occur which repairs your bad experience. Whether you look at it neurologically, spiritually, or whatever... it's all "you", so there's no point in compartmentalizing. You have to look at this as an experiential whole, which means a proper setup that facilitates a positive, interactive trip as much as possible.

To boil it down... you can live your way out of the negative headspace by having continued positive life experiences which insert new connections and awarenesses, or you could do another LSD trip to reset neuroplasticity and try to insert something positive into the middle of all that. It all comes down to whether or not you can control your fear and just let it happen. But regardless, it's possible to de-bug this through more than one avenue. You don't need LSD to do it, but it could be helpful.

AMAZINGLY thought out answer, thank you. I agree 100%. I have been trying to fill my life with positive things which I believe has helped improve my mindset over the last year or so since the experience, but like you said, an LSD trip would reset that "neuroplasticity", making it much quicker and easier, assuming it was carefully conducted, which as I said, it definitely will be.

I think only you can completely answer that, but anything that leaves you feeling unsettled when you have none or can't get any is probably not doing a lot of good for your sense of self.

You are right, but herein lies the problem (and this will start to go totally off the original thread topic - not that I care, but just saying). I don't like my job, it's a good job, supposedly (local municipal health inspector), but it's not me, not yet. I can see myself doing this when I'm maybe like 50, or something. Besides some other kid who has never left his house to go to work and has no social skills (sorry J), I am by far the youngest one here, and just feel like I'm missing out on life. That's why I do drugs escape drugs like opiates, stims, and Kratom. To keep my mind :entertained", not caring about my situation. My dream is traveling the world, working my way around/making my own way that way...

Perfect example: my boss JUST walked in, while I was writing this... there is a new ice cream place that opened up recently in town. I went there on Saturday to have ice cream with my brother. I've also taken a liking to the girl behind the counter, who also happens to be the owner, who also happens to be the sister of someone I graduated high school with, etc. In any case, it is what it is. Well my boss just walk in my office (literally while I was just writing that last paragraph. And it comes up through casual conversation that I went there on saturday with my brother. He tells me I shouldn't go there. It doesn't look good. It sends mixed messages. It makes him look weak as an enforcement official. I'm a libertarian as it is. This job isn't me. But given especially that my BA degree is in anthropology and I only got this job through connections, there isn't much more choices I can choose from as far as having a stable income. Makes me want to put in my 2 weeks now - even though I have no money saved. I wasn't gonna drink Kratom. I'm making a huge cupful now as I type... My addictions are that because I am stuck as a prisoner. as a matter of fact, I am gonna go in there right now and tell my boss I want nothing to do with that that establishment anymore professionally bc of my situation and ties with them. I don't know how he will react and I don't care. But I can't stand this fascist authoritarian political job bullshit anymore. It's not me and my parents are finally starting to realize it too. They finally get how my addiction is tied to doing this shit I hate. I'm gonna go in his office and tell him now. Putting my 2 weeks in will be another time, but it's gonna happen. Eat, Pray, Love man - vagabonding. I'm almost 30, but I don't care. Let's keep in touch on here please. I have no one else to talk to. All my friends are gone. One is in the Peace Corps... that's an option for me too. We shall see...

 

[whiteroom67]

Alright I just told him I wanted nothing to do with that establishment anymore professionally. He took it well, though I would have preferred not having to tell him my personal business. Plus, even in any case, if I want to go somewhere in town, I should have every right to without him caring or busting my balls. Now he wants me to investigate a property because someone might be "living in someone else's shed illegally. If someone wants to rent their shed out, why should we care? Oh, because the town didn't get their "occupancy fee" and/or it "doesn't look good for the town". We can't let a Vapor establishment allow vaping indoors bc it "violates the smoke-free air act". It's not even smoke! And not for anything, no one is going in there if they don't want to smell it or smoke it or vape it or anything or whatever anyway. It's not like it's a restaurant. So I, as a libertarian, who simultaneously likes to help people (ironically my boss thinks we are "helping" people too), I gotta go in there and summons them, and/or tell them to close or stop doing things that will help their business. No, I can't deal with this shit. Not personally, not professionally. It's an "easy job", and it's a "good job" that satisfies everyone in my family and their social circle, except me. But I'm stuck. Unless I put in my 2 weeks and leave to get my TEFL and teach English, or join the Peace Corps, or work in a hostel in France, or on a wine farm in Italy, or on a farm in Ireland, or with my Ayahuasca shaman friends in Ecuador, or live in a monastery in India or Tibet (or both, hiking over the Himalayas in between to get from one to the other), or open up my own magic mushroom shop on that island in Bali (yes, it's legal on ONE island, in Bali, but I forget the name) - or fuck it, all of the above, working my way from one to the next. That's what I need to do. Then opiates won't even be on my mind, and this "rewiring" of my mind will be inconsequential (though I'll still probably do it anyway before I leave - kind of as a send-off). I can't believe how serious I am thinking about this now. So much for paying my college loans though... hello default and bankruptcy lol.

 

[spacejunk]

I know you know this because we've talked about it, but I did iboga recently to get off opiates, and it worked, and also led me to change other areas of my life such as working out daily and eating right, and I'm so happy to do it.

I've been wondering how you got on - that's fucking terrific man.
Have I not been paying attention...or will you be writing up a TR for this (if you haven't already or plan to)?
I'm sure a lot of people would gain a lot from your perspective.
I kicked an 8 year opiate habit last year (not with ibogaine...) and have always found most psychedelics to be rather fascinating and agreeable, so I'd love to hear your reflections on the iboga treatment.

Sorry if this post is off topic, but I've been wondering how it went. Awesome, man - I hope it met (and/or exceeded) your highest expectations.
Enjoy your freedom!

 

[pmoseman]

For those who don't know I dealt with LSD related psychic disturbances for 10 years. Starting off with a relatively healthy mind and not being sure of the cause I went with sobriety. This took a long time to pan out but the results are really good.

 

[Tranced]

I'll start off by saying that without a doubt I am a big believer in the benefits of psychedelics if used responsibly. Anyone who has read any of my other posts relating to psychedelics (including my "Ayahuasca in Ecuador" thread), probably knows this already. I think psychedelics have a LOT of potential benefits for mental, emotional and spiritual growth. It can mature you beyond your years. It can provide years worth of therapeutic benefit in the time span of only a few hours. But they DEFINITELY have their risks too, no doubt, as I have discovered and you will soon see as well. Having said all that, I'm also NOT one of those that thinks psychedelic use always has to be some sort of serious spiritual undertaking. Sometimes it can be fun. Let it be fun. When I use psychedelics, which for me is maybe an average of once every month or two, about half of that time is fun, and the other half turns out to be pretty spiritual, or more on the serious side. I don't ever go into it with either of those intentions, I just make sure my set and setting is what it should be and the ratio of spiritual vs fun just kinda works out like that... more or less 1:1.

Also, a little background leading up to this point regarding my mindset. I had recently read the book "The Power of Now" by Eckhart Tolle, and it had a profound effect on me. I felt as if I was instantly able to tune into what he was teaching and it really changed my life in a HUGE way directly after reading it. For some reason, it was very easy for me to do what he preached about staying present, staying aware of excessive thoughts and feelings which are created by the ego, and by watching them, they would go away. Being suddenly aware of this changed my life and I felt almost like a new person. I had also just physically kicked an oxycodone addiction, and looking at the 12 steps, realized my higher power was the Now, pure presence, that which Tolle had spoken about in his book. I felt on top of the world. I felt in total control of my wgo, but I knew not to lt it get to me, because of course again that would be my ego. Through all of this, I just felt great, changed, amazing, egoless. Nothing bothered me anymore the way I used to and I didn't even think of using. Although it was around this time I discovered Kratom, and enjoyed it, but only used it once a day, after work and after the gym, in just one small dose (around 4 or 5 grams), just as the typical person may have a glass of wine at the end of the night - in other words, no big deal and hardly any dependence on it. Regardless, I felt great and in total control of my ego and my life, and was happy to accept anything and everything at any moment in time, merging with the present constantly and effortlessly. I also, still liked psychedelics and used them like I said above, maybe once every month or two, in low to moderate doses, just for my own recreational/spiritual use (I prefer tripping alone most of the time).

And so, with that said here is the dilemma that I created for myself. LSD is much different than shrooms for me. For most people yes of course they are different, but what I mean specifically is shrooms can provide amazing insight and have nice after effects, but it is just a psychological change of perspective. With LSD on the other hand, the after effects actual feel physical. Like an actual rewiring of my brain. And out of this, I got myself into a little bit of an issue...

Before the experience I'm about to tell you about, it had been a LONG time since I had last taken LSD - like years, but I had taken shrooms a couple of times in the months prior and had great trips. Well, for the first time in years, almost a year ago, I finally took LSD...

It wasn't a good day to take LSD.

My parents were out of town, and had just left that day. My brother was underage at the time. His good friend was also underage. But I considered them smart, and mature for their age - stupid me. Reckless me. That day, around 11 AM, we each dropped a tab, it was both of their first times. I had my doubts but since I felt so great and in control all the time, and they seemed ready for it, I figured it was no big deal. Another wonderful facet to this adventure however is the fact that my brother was planning on having a RAGER later that very same night. None of this bothered me before the trip kicked in. After all, we only took one tab each.

Well, the trip kicked in, and THAT was when I suddenly realized, I am now responsible for these 16 year-olds tripping on acid in my house, and would soon also be responsible for 40 more 16 year-olds drinking in my house later that same night, WHILE I WAS ON ACID. As I peaked, I saw my brother and friend not as the smart, mature kids for their age anymore, but as 16 year olds acting like 16 year olds... doing retarded stuff, weird stuff, playing with knives, slapping themselves in the face as hard as they could, stuff that made me realize I as a legal adult was responsible for these fucking kids. I just wanted bliss, to enhance my spirituality, but I could not do that now - as I was now ACUTELY aware of how responsible I was for such a bad decision. All the while, also thinking about what would be going on less than 8 hours from now, with tons more of these kids in my house drinking. Not to mention the fact that, at that time, I had tons of other illegal drugs in the house - what the fuck was I thinking this day? Thinking back, I was a fucking idiot for thinking I could put myself in this situation and have a "blissful and spiritua; experience." I didn't really think of any of this before, until the acid kicked in. THEN I was aware of what a bad decision this as. The acid MADE me aware. The trip itself was basically just nonstop paranoid anxiety all the way through. The music they were blasting that I can't stand (EDM) didn't help either, and the kids also started showing up early to party. Everything did turn out fine in the end, and looking back I guess it's a good story, but at the time, all I could think and FEEL was that something terrible would happen.

Well, the problem is, that trip stuck with me. Starting the very next day (if not the same day), I was no longer the joyful, blissful egoless being enjoying pure consciousness etc as I was before that trip. Up till even now (though now it's not nearly as bad - it's much netter than it was like 8 months ago), that ego voice would consume me all day. I would be angrier, more irritable, more anxious, more depressed, less fulfilled, and less present now. Even when I tied, that ego voice seemed stronger and it is not easy like it was before the trip to feel open and spiritual. I was no longer tolerant of things, no longer as patient, or as accepting. I basically feel like that trip brought me way backwards in my spiritual development. I have also since then relapsed on opiates and quit again (I am clean, with the exception of low-moderate Kratom use) but feel more mentally dependent on things now, of course. That trip really did fuck me.... and it was my own fault for being irresponsible... on so many levels.

My dilemma is now... I have been scared, and still am to consider the possible solution... I haven't done LSD since then. I have done shrooms a couple times, but the trips weren't as good, though they weren't horrible... I have also gone to Ecuador and done Ayahuasca, and while it was a great, if intense experience, it didn't change or help that negative rewiring of my brain I seemed to experience from LSD.

So my question is, now that some time has passed and I still haven't returned to my amazing mental and spiritual state I possessed beforehand, should I return to the source and use LSD to try and reverse this? To bring myself up to a more positive "vibration" if you want to call it that? Possibly use a small amount of MDMA to ensure a positive experience during the peak/comedown? It is risky I know. It could make things worse, or it could make them better. I would be by myself for the trip (what I usually prefer), with the right set and setting this time FOR SURE, and I would focus the trip on bringing me back to where I was before this shitty ass trip that happened almost a year ago, which unfortunately seemed to affect me long term like this.

Good idea? Bad idea? Opinions please?

Also, another option I was considering was... Iboga.

Anyone else have this type of experience before?

After reading this it sounds like you've got a good attitude towards all of this, which is good. I'd say that what you propose could work out, especially with your positive mindset. Candyflips are a very special medicine for the modern world. Candyflipping is very much about being your real self.

Just out of interest - a lot of the negative symptoms you described in your first post sound like symptoms which could easily be addressed by being more present and now. Did you put much effort into forcing yourself into the present, through meditation and focussed awareness?

 

[Solipsis]

I have gotten neuroses from stressful acid trips that really fucked me and brainwashed me, like feeling really skin-sensitive with regard to for example bugs, after I experienced a trip where I was 'attacked' by a swarm of mosquitos. And there are more examples.
What I can say about that is that it has gotten better over time. I was able to get over those particular ones just with time and working on myself one step at a time.
Trips can accellerate developments, you can call it spiritual growth, but also other kinds of imprints that are basically like a form of brainwashing, including phobia like conditioning and other emotion-related negative thought pattern tendencies. Those developments can happen positively which is the goal with the right set and setting to get a more or less guided experience... it can also happen negatively.
Trying to accellerate it again after you have made some wrong turns makes it even less predictable where you will end up, the upside / promise of course is that you won't have to wait so long but the stakes are high and you have to get it right. The alternative is to just work on it naturally, which allows for much better steering.

 

[whiteroom67]

After reading this it sounds like you've got a good attitude towards all of this, which is good. I'd say that what you propose could work out, especially with your positive mindset. Candyflips are a very special medicine for the modern world. Candyflipping is very much about being your real self.

Just out of interest - a lot of the negative symptoms you described in your first post sound like symptoms which could easily be addressed by being more present and now. Did you put much effort into forcing yourself into the present, through meditation and focussed awareness?

Yes I did. That was part of the big change I noticed. Meditation before was easy, but after that trip, it was much more difficult (more intruding thoughts, less able to focus, more mental stuff just "going on"). Even now, staying present and in the now is much tougher than it was before the trip. Like those last 2 posts I made before about my workday today - venting. After first reading Tolle's book but before the bad trip, I know I would have been able to deal with it much more calmly... even if it was something I still didn't agree with, I feel like would have been able to figure out a solution easier, and handle myself better, and not get so riled up over it. This was the difference. Even when trying to generally focus on the Now, I notice my mind's thoughts feel "stronger" in the sense that it pulls me out of the now a lot easier then it did before the trip. I also tend to keep dwelling on things now more than I did before the trip, despite being aware of it and trying to refocus on the Now. I remember how the Now was, how easy it was, but for some reason it's just not as easy anymore ever since then.

There are however some things that changed for the better though. I did become more "aware" of bad things after the trip, just in general, politically and personally. I do think that it is a good thing which was realized... that partying with my brother and his underage friends is not a "chill thing to do, and who cares about the consequences", which was what it was like after the book but before the trip.

Now since that trip, it's "they are kids and I'm an adult - they act like fucking retards - it's obvious now, and it's annoying and I want nothing to do it, or them". I'm still close with my brother, but can;t relax with him when it comes to partying or joking about stuff he does with his friends anymore, even if it's just me and him chilling alone talking about it.

But still, how it should really be and what I want is the middle ground "they are kids, and they're gonna do what they're gonna do, but it's chill, I can still connect with them, joke with them - let them roll with it and I can still be chill w them but just be more mature and just not directly involved in anything risky that they do"

...but I just can't get to let my mind see it that way - my personality has changed, and even meditation and focusing on the now is much more difficult and doesn't work as it did, even though the increased awareness is a good thing that came out of it I would think.

But again, there is this underlying anxiety about it all, almost physical at times, generalized, and a separation from all, that just will not go away - which is why I keep thinking a "Now" focused candyflip with the proper set and setting is the only way to reset it. It will never work as long as I am living home with my parents and/or brother, constantly at the house though. And I will need to be alone.

 

[swilow]

I sort of think that if meditation is 'easy', you're not doing it right!

 

[whiteroom67]

Haha it wasn't at first, but then it got easy quickly for me. At least in the sense of clearing my mind and staying in the Now... being externally aware of every moment. Transcendental meditation is maybe different, I don't know, I've never tried it. \

Solpisis I totally agree with you, that's why I have waited this long. It has been almost a year. Quitting Kratom has been difficult also... moreso since the trip. I find myself going back to it again and again and ending up in withdrawal quite regularly... frankly it's getting old and I am waiting for the day of being free once again.