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  • AADD Moderators: swilow | Vagabond696

The 'ice epidemic'

That sounds more like a medically supervised taper than a maintenance programme.

The term "maintenance" has gone out of favour in the sector for precisely this reason - whether you're talking about opiates or stimulants, there's huge diversity covering people who want a substitute to slowly taper to abstinence, to people who feel they need lifelong replacement of the substance they're dependent on. The move away from talking about "maintenance" and talking about "substitution" also (apparently) creates more acceptability in the system for people who don't want to quit their drug of choice, but use maintenance programs sporadically to help them keep their shit together when they have to go without using for one reason or another (lack of money, lack of availability, drug test, etc).

I'm actually not on top of whether St Vincents has a maximum time limit for people to be on their program, but I know it's a long term approach.

I'd imagine this would be much more successful than any cold turkey rehab.

Depends on the person, but I would generally agree with you. Anecdotally, the most common reason I've heard dependent meth users give for going back on the gear after a quitting attempt is that the resulting fatigue and depression is completely debilitating. Dex substitution is supposed to counter act this.
 
I'm actually not on top of whether St Vincents has a maximum time limit for people
Depends on the person, but I would generally agree with you. Anecdotally, the most common reason I've heard dependent meth users give for going back on the gear after a quitting attempt is that the resulting fatigue and depression is completely debilitating. Dex substitution is supposed to counter act this.

Yeah I've heard some really good outcomes. Lots of people ended up using meth again but if it helps even a small percentage surely it's worth expanding.


Will be hard figuring out the protocols for choosing who to let on a program like this. Unfortunately lots of people would love a cheap dose of dexamphetamine daily...whereas methadone/suboxone isn't as prized. Dexies are also worth much more to people so diversion could be a problem with just handing people 10x 5mg tablets every day.

They're talking about using Lisdexamfetamine which would be an even better option. Not sure if they've started trials with that yet.
 
Will be hard figuring out the protocols for choosing who to let on a program like this. Unfortunately lots of people would love a cheap dose of dexamphetamine daily...whereas methadone/suboxone isn't as prized. Dexies are also worth much more to people so diversion could be a problem with just handing people 10x 5mg tablets every day.

Here's the document reviewing the trial (which was tiny) before the program was expanded: http://www.health.nsw.gov.au/mhdao/publications/Documents/stimulant_treatment.pdf

Their summary of the sample group and eligibility criteria is:

"Treatment delivered at the clinics also includedpharmacotherapy for a very small group of patients whohad engaged in a minimum of four counselling sessionsand for whom pharmacotherapy was considered to be ofbenefit according to the STP eligibility criteria. Threepatients participated in dexamphetamine substitution atSt Vincent’s Hospital. All patients stabilised rapidly insubstitution treatment, demonstrated improvements inhealth and social functioning, and reported decreased illicitmethamphetamine use. These patients adhered todexamphetamine treatment regimens, including beingrequired to attend twice daily for dosing withdexamphetamine, and attended regular counsellingsupport."

and

"Eligibility for the STP included the following criteria:• the patient must identify stimulant drugs as the maindrug of concern• the patient must be 18 years of age or older• the patient must not be currently enrolled in an opioidsubstitution program (ie, methadone or buprenorphinemaintenance)"

The program required daily onsite dosing, so I imagine diversion was no more or less an issue that with any opiate substitution program that requires onsite dosing.
 
I tried my own dex maintenance, and found that while it did obviously relieve cravings, the brutal comedown from dextroamphetamine is hellish on the body, as well as the mind.

If your trying to get a recreational dose out of them after meth use, which for me is about 25 mg ^, there is a horrible toll it takes on your muscles and joints that i have hardly seen with even massive meth binges. They are equipotent i believe, as i was suprised that even 20 mg was sufficient to give a buzz.

However, without the methyl amine, there is little to no serotonin activity, which i put down to an abrupt end to things far too soon, whereas meth seems to lightly and slowly bring you back to baseline. The serotonin activity will settle your mood and mask the fact your brain is freaking out with no dopamine traffic on the highway. I cant believe people brush off dexies as 'nothin' while meth is demonized, yet ive taken more sick days off and havnt even been able to think about going to work which is suprising given my willpower. I attribute dexies to on/off back pain i get from work which is physically demanding. I work through freight, and have seen many dexie users come and go cause their back has given out.

Its like meth with a double shot of coffee. I wouldnt want struggling meth addicts coming down on dexies after experiencing the gentleness of meth.
 
Agree with a lot of what has already been said in this thread.

Purity and availability has gone up, slight decrease in price, although still very high compared to the rest of the world. Likely due to increased imports of lab-grade Methamphetamine from SE-Asia. High price attracts well organised established crime gangs, who I assume are doing the very large imports - e.g. 321kg of Methamphetamine and $1.4million in cash found on 4 Hong Kong nationals in Perth recently. This large scale importation filters down through the ranks, dealers that used to buy in Ounces are now operating in Kilograms.

The attractiveness of bringing quality ice into Australia will not go away until the price drops. Decriminalization is one option but I speculate that legalising Marijuana would be a more effective alternative.

I think the "problem" Ice users, the ones who the community regularly identifies as being the "scourge" if this "ice epidemic", are simply just drug users. They will use drugs on more days than they do not. The problem with Ice being your drug of choice is that it becomes incredibly unhealthy even at moderate levels of usage, let alone abusage. So we see the resulting pschotic symptoms, violence, abuse and crime to feed an expensive addiction. I think that people that are using ice like this would probably have a high substitution preference for Marijuana...especially if you combined it with some counselling on how to live life at "PLAY" speed instead of "DOUBLE FAST FORWARD" - Smoking up a doobie still gives that break from reality that problematic drug users crave but it also offers a chance for introspection whilst on a break from ice, which will hopefully make them realise the harm it was doing
 
http://www.9news.com.au/national/2015/09/20/10/39/queensland-to-spend-on-state-ice-campaign

Queensland to spend $6 million on ice prevention and rehab

The Queensland government will spend $6 million a year on communities most impacted by the ice epidemic.

Cooktown, the Gold Coast, Rockhampton, Charleville and Cunnamulla will each receive additional rehabilitation, treatment and outreach services under the plan to be announced on Sunday, News Limited reports.

The government will also allocate new Drug and Alcohol Intervention Teams at the Logan and Townsville Hospitals.

Premier Annastacia Palaszczuk will also announce a discussion paper on the government's plan and the public will have six weeks to make submission.

"Ice is having a chaotic effect on many individuals, their families and communities," she told The Sunday Mail.

"These new initiatives are the first tranche of the government's response and will put resources into frontline treatment and management of those suffering from the ice epidemic."
 
I honestly don't know if meth/amphetamine can be used in a regular fashion with any safety; but there is obviously a lot that can be done to reduce harm (which is sadly absent from so much of the discussion nationally regarding the "meth problem").

Here is the thing, there are hundreds of thousands of meth users who aren't hurting people. They're not punching their partners, or going on five day benders. I know so many 'normal' people who use meth like our parents used valium (mummies little helper). They take it regular, and could be classified as addicts but they're using it to get through the rat fucking race. The never ending cleaning of our houses, clothes, errands to run, bills to pay, kids to play with, homework and then work.

No wonder there are so many prescription opiate users. They either use opiates or meth/speed to get on with life.

The small fraction of people who are violent are in that position because of deep rooted emotional problems. They have dysfunctional relationships, poor housing and employment stability, suffered abuse and harm and in turn when under stress, exposed to mental health issues, combined with a lack of sleep all combines into a powder keg of violence.

If you can control those factors. If you can bring those people into a controlled environment where they are surrounded by help you can easily transform them. To get them in the door however we need to use meth, heroin or crack (and let me tell you, crack is coming back big time in Sydney). Surround people with medical help, education facilities and early intervention services. You know when your a young men, with a baby, poor employment options, unstable housing and all you've known is drugs, drinking and the violence of western sydney, is it little wonder that when your stressed, and fighting with your partner that you'll end up lashing out? Where are the services when they had a baby that saw a nurse help them deal with a crying baby. Where are the services that taught this young man how to act, how to work? He didn't learn it from his parents. They were just as fucked up as him.

The problem is priorities. We have the money, we have the resources, the experts and even the facilities. The problem is we spent over $5b in 2014 on NSW police. The attorney's general department got $5b to do prisons and the legal system. Last year 110,000 people were arrested on drug related matters (approx 40% of arrests). NOw operational budgets are difficult to estimate but if we do it on an arrests divide by budget we get 40-50% of the operational budgets of these agencies are allocated to managing drug related matters. Of course the bottom line doesn't include the money spent in relation to emergency health, the indirect billions lost on productivity, and of course the billions that go out the door to the mafia, cartels and triads.

We spent basically $10-15b this year on drugs in NSW. And we've done that every year for decades. We've failed, miserably, we have a parasitic class of law enforcement officials, lawyers, judges and correctional officials who are sucking mindlessly, like a drug addict, from the public purse. Think about it. We spent $100b between 2000-2010. We could have built ten fast rail system with that. We could have funded early intervention services for families at risk of abuse and domestic violence. The list is endless.

Instead we gave it to a pack of leaches. Parasites. Who prey on the sick and vunerable, calling them junkies and curb stomping us at the sametime. I find particular egregious, the learned gentlemen of the court. The judges, the QCs, SCs and so on, looking down their nose as they judge men only to retire to their chambers to sniff and shoot up to their hearts content.

I know that the judges in Sydney are a dirty crooked bunch. I had a friend who had in fact taken out an insurance policy. By sending the judges to holidays at the gay resorts of QLD, setting them up with as much MDMA and toy boys they could take he effectively ensured he stayed out of prison. Indeed when he was found with a commercial quantity of narcotics, a very large amount, he was given a good behaviour bond (though his employees were fucked badly).

It needs to change. We need to change. I just can't accept our brothers and sisters dying just because the money was given to jackbooted leaches who think their doing gods work arresting all those dirty fucking junkies.

In a hundred year society will look back on the authorities in the same way we look back at the Victorians and how they treated mental health problems in the 19th century.
 
I've used this drug for 7 years, and amphets for 8. For periods of years straight.
It has caused traumatic effects on my life and those around me,

But I've never been psychoticly violent, (psychotic, sure. And aware at the time).

The constant media attention towards this side effect of "Ice" use has me and a lot of methamphetamine users feeling detached from the message, yet again. It is less pure propaganda, but doesn't scratch at the surface of stimulant use.
Rather once again, just demonising it as a super tweak-"Ice" drug.
 
The methamphetamine in Oz is mainly made from (pseudo)ephedrine so it's pure (S)methamphetamine. Apparently, the mixture of isomers (prop-dope) is preferred by some users but the shear potency of this compound proved much to much for me. If 4-MAR didn't lead to heart problems, I would go with that. Seems to have some serotonin activity. Many people describe it as being 1/2 way between E & speed.

All I know was my 1 experiment left my GF & myself running around Amsterdam, convinced we were being chased...
 
Substances don't make people violent. If this was the case, we'd see an equal amount of drug- and alcohol-fueled violence being committed by women, but we don't. It's almost all men.
 
Substances don't make people violent. If this was the case, we'd see an equal amount of drug- and alcohol-fueled violence being committed by women, but we don't. It's almost all men.

hear hear.

The primary factor in the violence against women is your socioeconomic status. It is basically men, aboriginal and anyone else at that level in the socioeconomic ladder. This is why domestic violence in genteel rich suburbs is almost unheard of. Subject young men to stress, in terms of poor housing, unstable employment and poor relationships with their families and community and you'll get a situation where they lash out. Its sad because the multigenerational abuse, the two hundred years where we systematically destroyed thousands of their people, their communities, stole their children, subjected them to slavery and racism is kinda our fault. Even now we should be giving them reperations, helping them rebuild their society and instead we attack them, treat them like children, take away their funds, send in the army and so on.

Back to the subject. There are heaps of amphetamine and methamphetamine users in this country who are socioeconomically doing well. They're employed, litle to no criminal record, they either own or are in the process of owning their own house, have stable relationships with those around. These people aren't violent.
 
hear hear.

The primary factor in the violence against women is your socioeconomic status. It is basically men, aboriginal and anyone else at that level in the socioeconomic ladder. This is why domestic violence in genteel rich suburbs is almost unheard of.

Nope. Mosman is one of the wealthiest suburbs in Sydney and also has one of the highest rates of domestic violence. Domestic violence occurs at all stratas of society. Sorry, but it's a gender issue, not a class issue.

Also, over 60% of Aboriginal relationships are interracial. We can't look at violence against Aboriginal women without acknowledging that a sizeable portion of it is committed by white men.

Subject young men to stress, in terms of poor housing, unstable employment and poor relationships with their families and community and you'll get a situation where they lash out. Its sad because the multigenerational abuse, the two hundred years where we systematically destroyed thousands of their people, their communities, stole their children, subjected them to slavery and racism is kinda our fault. Even now we should be giving them reperations, helping them rebuild their society and instead we attack them, treat them like children, take away their funds, send in the army and so on.

Totally with you on this bit.

Back to the subject. There are heaps of amphetamine and methamphetamine users in this country who are socioeconomically doing well. They're employed, litle to no criminal record, they either own or are in the process of owning their own house, have stable relationships with those around. These people aren't violent.

The men who commit the most (non-domestic) violence in my suburb are 'tourists' who come in on the weekends to spend hundreds of dollars at the pubs and get into street fights.
 
Nope. Mosman is one of the wealthiest suburbs in Sydney and also has one of the highest rates of domestic violence. Domestic violence occurs at all stratas of society. Sorry, but it's a gender issue, not a class issue.

No way does Mosman have one of the highest rates of violence. Its rated 125th out of 140 LGAs. It the last 12 months its had only 47 incidents. The top ten areas for domestic violence are poor and rural. The top ten areas are per 100,000 are:

  1. Bourke with 4,271.8
  2. Walgett with 2,675.4
  3. Moree Plains 1,830.80
  4. Glen Innes Severn with 1,093
  5. Lachlan with 1003.7
  6. Coonamble with 1001.9
  7. Broken Hill with 987
  8. Cobar with 939.2
  9. Tenterfield 888.3
  10. Gilgandra 878.4

Now those are per 100k. If we're just going to go with straight out volume

  1. Blacktown with 1938
  2. Penrith with 1100
  3. Liverpool with 966
  4. Campbelltown with 959
  5. Bankstown with 863
  6. Wyong with 852
  7. Fairfield with 791
  8. Parramatta with 747
  9. Lake Macquare with 730
  10. Wollongong with 712

All of these areas are between 30-70th in their per capita rankings. All of the areas I've indicated have significant populations of socioeconomic challenged people. Poor employment opportunities. Poor service availability (though we can always find money for fucking pigs but never for early intervention services). Not a single wealthy suburb comes close to any of these in volume or per 100k.

Bourke and Walgett have particularly high unemployment rates, 12% of the adult population with even higher rates of youth unemployment. Seeing they only have a population of 2500 people or so the unemployment issue is a significant problem. Whilst for the domestic violence 183 incidences happened in Walgett alone.

In Sydney between Blacktown, Bankstown, Fairfield and Liverpool there are approx 32,000 unemployed. Much higher then Mosman, and the Eastern suburbs. It would appear to me there is some sort of correlation. Not just with unemployment but the quality of employment and the wages earned. These are poor areas.

Now I'm not trying to say that there isn't domestic violence in Mosman. Just that clearly its not a gender issue. Its a socioeconomic issue. People, frustrated and angry from a lack of stable housing, employment and health care will envariably lash out when taking a potent combination of alcohol, meth and a lack of sleep. Also, it should be noted that Mosman has public housing in it. I would argue that the domestic violence matters are most likely arising from those residents.

And its not just men. Out of the 18,446 domestic violence matters that were proceeded with by NSW police in the last 12 months, 3,350 of the offenders were women. That's 18%. I know that is significantly unreported as I can tell you right now men aren't going to call the cops if their wife slaps or hits them. I've been slapped many times and my mates have said as much to me as well. Most of the woemn I know don't even realise the double standard.

Even with murdering women are involved. In fact two of the 17 people murdered were killed by women!

Domestic Violence is not a gender issue. Its a socioeconomic issue.

Sources:

Domestic Violence Statistics for NSW - http://www.bocsar.nsw.gov.au/Pages/bocsar_pages/Domestic-Violence.aspx

Unemployment stats (ABS) - just google it.
 
The small fraction of people who are violent are in that position because of deep rooted emotional problems. They have dysfunctional relationships, poor housing and employment stability, suffered abuse and harm and in turn when under stress, exposed to mental health issues, combined with a lack of sleep all combines into a powder keg of violence.
--> THIS! Awesome post Chugs.
 
The methamphetamine in Oz is mainly made from (pseudo)ephedrine so it's pure (S)methamphetamine. Apparently, the mixture of isomers (prop-dope) is preferred by some users but the shear potency of this compound proved much to much for me. If 4-MAR didn't lead to heart problems, I would go with that. Seems to have some serotonin activity. Many people describe it as being 1/2 way between E & speed.

All I know was my 1 experiment left my GF & myself running around Amsterdam, convinced we were being chased...

Sorry brother but i definantly disagree. Both forms of methamphetamine (r and d) are considerbly more harmfull too your body. Not only is it less neurotoxic than both meth and even mdma, meth does significantly more damage to your heart than 4mar.

This will sound insane to people but for 8 years ive never been able to stop smoking meth. I did an awesome rehab only to relapes 3 days later. For about a month now ive had consistant access to lab grab 4MAR and i havnt smoked meth in that whole month. Im no longer a daily smoker i can go days without 4mar and still feel fine. Dunno how that works but it bloody does lol
 
No way does Mosman have one of the highest rates of violence. Its rated 125th out of 140 LGAs. It the last 12 months its had only 47 incidents. The top ten areas for domestic violence are poor and rural. The top ten areas are per 100,000 are:

  1. Bourke with 4,271.8
  2. Walgett with 2,675.4
  3. Moree Plains 1,830.80
  4. Glen Innes Severn with 1,093
  5. Lachlan with 1003.7
  6. Coonamble with 1001.9
  7. Broken Hill with 987
  8. Cobar with 939.2
  9. Tenterfield 888.3
  10. Gilgandra 878.4

Now those are per 100k. If we're just going to go with straight out volume

  1. Blacktown with 1938
  2. Penrith with 1100
  3. Liverpool with 966
  4. Campbelltown with 959
  5. Bankstown with 863
  6. Wyong with 852
  7. Fairfield with 791
  8. Parramatta with 747
  9. Lake Macquare with 730
  10. Wollongong with 712

All of these areas are between 30-70th in their per capita rankings. All of the areas I've indicated have significant populations of socioeconomic challenged people. Poor employment opportunities. Poor service availability (though we can always find money for fucking pigs but never for early intervention services). Not a single wealthy suburb comes close to any of these in volume or per 100k.

Bourke and Walgett have particularly high unemployment rates, 12% of the adult population with even higher rates of youth unemployment. Seeing they only have a population of 2500 people or so the unemployment issue is a significant problem. Whilst for the domestic violence 183 incidences happened in Walgett alone.

In Sydney between Blacktown, Bankstown, Fairfield and Liverpool there are approx 32,000 unemployed. Much higher then Mosman, and the Eastern suburbs. It would appear to me there is some sort of correlation. Not just with unemployment but the quality of employment and the wages earned. These are poor areas.

Now I'm not trying to say that there isn't domestic violence in Mosman. Just that clearly its not a gender issue. Its a socioeconomic issue. People, frustrated and angry from a lack of stable housing, employment and health care will envariably lash out when taking a potent combination of alcohol, meth and a lack of sleep. Also, it should be noted that Mosman has public housing in it. I would argue that the domestic violence matters are most likely arising from those residents.

And its not just men. Out of the 18,446 domestic violence matters that were proceeded with by NSW police in the last 12 months, 3,350 of the offenders were women. That's 18%. I know that is significantly unreported as I can tell you right now men aren't going to call the cops if their wife slaps or hits them. I've been slapped many times and my mates have said as much to me as well. Most of the woemn I know don't even realise the double standard.

Even with murdering women are involved. In fact two of the 17 people murdered were killed by women!

Domestic Violence is not a gender issue. Its a socioeconomic issue.

Sources:

Domestic Violence Statistics for NSW - http://www.bocsar.nsw.gov.au/Pages/bocsar_pages/Domestic-Violence.aspx

Unemployment stats (ABS) - just google it.

These are figures for NSW, not Sydney. There's a hell of a lot more going on in regional and remote areas around domestic violence than just poverty.

I can assure you that the domestic violence in Mosman is not just "public housing residents", having lived in Mosman, experienced domestic violence, and accessed support services for domestic violence survivors in that region that were predominantly accessed by middle class women ranging from stay at home mothers to career women.

I'm sorry, I know it's a lot easier to think of these things as "things that happen to other people", but anyone who's had any involvement with the domestic violence field can tell you that perpetrators and victims come from all echelons of society and all socio-economic groups.
 
What you talking about. I gave you the figures for Sydney. Penrith, Blacktown and Bankstown are very much Sydney towns. Sure there is domestic violence in mossman. Just no where near the scale of western sydney or regional NSW.

I gave you the source of my data so you can have a look at it yourself. You can see Mossman is so safe for women its not funny.
 
The media made out that we are sum of the earth and the cause of all problems in the country.
When the majority of people I know who get on it just like to chill with mates, have sex with any number of the other horny tweakers, Get stuff done!

AND THE RUINED IT FOR US GUYS JUST HAVING A GOOD TIME!!! NOW WE GET LOOKED UPON LIKE FILTH FROM ALL THE SHEEP WHO WATCH TV! USE TO BE GOOD CRUISING WITH HEADPHONES AT 3AM WITH YOUR DOG AND PEOPLE JUST THOUGHT YOU WERE A GOOD DOG OWNER.

In my old town which is about a hours drive from melbourne it is easier to score rocks then weed now....

I have been a dex - meth user for the last 16 years. It's hell at times when I can't even be bothered turning the computer on. I'm pretty sorted where I use 5 out of 7 days a week, sleep least 4 nights and eat normal.
 
What you talking about. I gave you the figures for Sydney. Penrith, Blacktown and Bankstown are very much Sydney towns. Sure there is domestic violence in mossman. Just no where near the scale of western sydney or regional NSW.

I gave you the source of my data so you can have a look at it yourself. You can see Mossman is so safe for women its not funny.

OK, so I could have been clearer. The data actually says that neither of us are correct. :)

"Rates of domestic violence" is a complex thing to calculate. BOSCAR and ABS - which you've cited - don't give figures for domestic violence incidents. They give figures for domestic violence incidents that involved the police. The DSS records numbers of people (predominantly women) presenting at funded domestic violence services. The two sets of figures don't line up - some suburbs score high in one dataset and low in the other. There's plenty of theories about why that is, largely related to the provision of services, the relationship of the local population with the police, the capacity for services to intervene before things escalate to the level of police involvement, etc etc.

Mosman has a low rate of domestic violence incidents being reported to police, but a very high rate of women attending domestic violence services. There's been a lot of media on their (reasonably well resourced) domestic violence services being at capacity consistently for years.

You can draw your own conclusions about why Mosmanites are turning to DV services without calling the police, but it's demonstrably untrue that Mosman is "so safe for women it's not funny".
 
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