The drugs haven't messed you up. IT'S ALL IN YOUR HEAD.

[sekio]

This thread is almost as bad as telling depressed people to "just get over it".

Just because the prevalence of PTSD is much higher in some groups doesn't mean you get to discount it happening in everyone else. The fact of the matter is, bad trips happen, and they effect people in negative ways. Often they're not experiences that you can just ignore and move on from.

 

[psood0nym]

You could have made your point without coming across as so hostile. People would generally be more receptive and it would be a better discussion. I think that you make some good points, but being entirely dismissive of real problems people are experiencing seems a little judgmental.

I agree. In light of this assessment we should focus on developing those good points. I believe the "Let it go" advice is essentially sound, as the discipline of gently releasing thoughts that spontaneously arise and returning to external focus is foundational to meditative practices. Devotion to such practice has been demonstrated empirically to produce psychologically beneficial and, in extreme cases, profound neuroplastic changes.

In a sense, performing this sort of exercise to steer oneself out of a bad trip is like adding a weight belt to a physical regimen: it builds stronger emotional muscles. I certainly appreciate that some people suffer from serious emotional issues, but also suspect prolonged use of anti-anxiety medications, alcohol, narcotics and similar compounds often undermines motivations to seek and develop skills needed to truly get beyond those issues and flourish. In the same spirit I suspect many swallow a benzo at the first sign of psychedelic trouble or subsequent fallout from a bad trip and in doing so deny themselves both learning an important skill as well as access to the full potential of psychedelic experiences.

 

[Kl519]

No one here can do much to help others besides generalizing what they're saying. None of us really know each other, so we can only give advice from personal experiences. And maybe some stats, sources, or whatever but I don't put too much stock into that as much as the person's clarity and theme of their argument.

Specifically about the "man the fuck up" advice, that can actually be helpful from the right people and at the right time. I do agree it is not helpful coming from someone you don't know eg. here on BL. But from friends? I think that's so much better than a friend just letting you go through the motions and feeling sorry for you too. Tbh, that doesn't help much either unless that person is just looking for attention and sympathy. As for fixing problems, "man the fuck up," from how I perceive it, really does work. That means you suck it up, deal with it, control what you can and give it your best shot. Then you can live with the results and have a clear conscience. This kind of advice needs to come from someone close to you, or someone you respect, for it to mean anything though. When I was told that before, I saw it more as the person believing I could get through it and something that I should strive for (still to this day too) when I really thought about it.

If more people thought positively and believed in themselves, less people would be depressed and feeling down over what I consider "insignificant" shit. It's sad how people hold themselves back so much without realizing it. People do not need to wallow in their despair, but some constantly do.

Put some damn effort into it, man up, and don't fucking give up so easily. If people want help, they need to help themselves first by "manning" up and also taking responsibility for their actions (taking a psychedelic).

 

[alasdairm]

I'm just saying: hypochondriasis seems to be a bit of a thing on here. People are quick to assume the worst. Take a look at all the "I think acid fried my brain" type threads that get posted on here damn near every day... I bet you 90% of these people don't have PTSD and have simply worn themselves out by overthinking and taking things too seriously.
Incidentally most of the authors of these threads seem to be teenagers.

On the other hand, if you are mentally ill or have a predisposition to psychosis then it might be a good idea to see a doctor. That's a totally different can of worms.

that's not what your first post appeared to say.

just sayin'...

alasdair

 

[jammin83]

^^^^Good point.

Sometimes I think people like to identify one singular event as a source of their problems. Usually tripping has a tendency to bring a lot of things to the surface that have been going on for possibly a lifetime. Sometimes people don't like what they see and don't like being confronted with the decisions that they have made in life and look to blame substance x. It's a fine line that a true friend should be able to discern.

 

[treezy z]

OP. psychological trauma is real and you can't just think your way out of it. you're dead wrong IMO.

 

[Kl519]

For psychological trauma, you need help from your environment as well as from within.

 

[murphythecat]

seriously, confronted with a ++++ and a ego death experience, Ive never been able to relax into it yet and I dont bad trip, but I cannot appreciate the moment and need love from my sitter and reassurance as I feel Im gonna die and im just let me die and flow with the stream and bliss.
being told get over it would make me panic even more.

 

[Kl519]

If you're not bad trippin', then you don't need to get over it, right?

I'm sorta confused. =/

You also rejected the help, so you either don't want it or don't need it.

Personally, my stance on telling anyone to man up, get over it, or whatever is to simply strengthen their mind and help people realize their potential. Basically, it's a tough love stance that I think is necessary once in a while, depending on the situation.

 

[Fractality]

For me, I think it had to be my period of MDMA use that caused me to feel like I suffered a degree of permanent brain damage. The agonizing thing though is related to the topic of this thread. Did I do actual, physical damage to my neurons? Or are the perceived cognitive deficiencies due to a more general malaise/devolution of sorts? For instance, I used to be rather proficient at writing and speaking eloquently. I struggle now to write creatively and even struggle writing like I am now. Until there exists a definitive scientific test, I don't think I will ever know the answer. Being unable to come to terms with this uncertainty is certainly a contributing factor to the anxiety. Simply put, if I dwell on it, I can almost make myself damage was done. It's like when somone has a panic attack and truly believes they are on the verge of death. You can never discount the power of the psyche to influence physical parameters. There is a quote that may be relevant here: "The search for causes prevents things from being what they are."

 

[Kl519]

Yes, the mind is powerful enough to induce physical symptoms. It's even as simple as beads of sweat forming when someone is too anxious/nervous.

Even the drugs, they mostly affect our brain/minds. It's very simple and obvious, but it seems to be forgotten sometimes. Almost everything is happening there.

 

[Bagseed]

No one here can do much to help others besides generalizing what they're saying. None of us really know each other, so we can only give advice from personal experiences. And maybe some stats, sources, or whatever but I don't put too much stock into that as much as the person's clarity and theme of their argument.

I disagree. I think, when giving Harm Reduction advice, you should disregard your own experiences as much as possible, and focus on what's tried and tested. More times than I can count, I see people on here recommending a first timer to take an eight of shrooms. while it might be fine from their -personal- experience, it is insane to tell this someone you don't know at all.

I've been a PD regular for quite some years now, and OP is the typical example of a member who only talks about what -he- does and how -he- can use the shit out of psychedelics, and how well -he- can handle it and at the same time can't fathom that it might be completely different for others. It's fine to talk about one's experience, but I think this site is not only for profiling yourself, but rather to help others with less knowledge by giving reasonable advice.

 

[terarc]

For me, I think it had to be my period of MDMA use that caused me to feel like I suffered a degree of permanent brain damage. The agonizing thing though is related to the topic of this thread. Did I do actual, physical damage to my neurons? Or are the perceived cognitive deficiencies due to a more general malaise/devolution of sorts? For instance, I used to be rather proficient at writing and speaking eloquently. I struggle now to write creatively and even struggle writing like I am now. Until there exists a definitive scientific test, I don't think I will ever know the answer. Being unable to come to terms with this uncertainty is certainly a contributing factor to the anxiety. Simply put, if I dwell on it, I can almost make myself damage was done. It's like when somone has a panic attack and truly believes they are on the verge of death. You can never discount the power of the psyche to influence physical parameters. There is a quote that may be relevant here: "The search for causes prevents things from being what they are."

I have experienced similar from MDMA use and also feel that if someone has been overusing MDMA they have a higher propensity for bad or disturbing psychedelic experiences, a lot of my friends who insist on taking MDMA all the time, whilst they do still take psychedelics occasionally, seem to be scared of them somewhat. I have also experienced this feeling of mental disturbation, negative trips and fear of my own psyche, after using MDMA too much. This is why I always supplement with a lot of antioxidants and enzyme inhibitors when I do use MDMA now and surprisingly have none of this or any of the mental slowness, brain fog, cognitive issues, leaving simply the mood deficit and magic loss issues with overuse but these can be patched up somewhat by 5-HTP and St Johns Wort, respectively

 

[Xorkoth]

I do agree that trauma from bad trips seems to be preventable in general. I've had a variety of horrifying hell trips but many of them now number among my most valuable trips. I think that a certain brand of person tends to obsess over the events they experienced and convince themselves that they are now "fucked up", when they could have chosen instead of say, hey, the trip is over, I'm back to baseline, yeah it was frightening, maybe I won't ever take a psychedelic again, but it's over, now let's focus on maybe WHY I felt that way and try to learn something. The memory of the trip becomes not just shrouded in negativity, but you can start to see the positives that could come from it, and sudden;y the event does not seem so traumatic. That's my technique and it's always worked for me.

I think it probably has a lot to do with how close to a "control freak" (yes, pretty negative term but everyone understands what it means) a person is. Some people become VERY uncomfortable when they lose "control" (not that we ever really have control over everything) and some people have an easier time with it. Personally I love the lack of control that psychedelics make me realize I have, it's refreshing and illuminating. Maybe that's why I have never had one of those traumatic bad trips people talk about. I've had terrifying experiences where I was sure I was dying, that were difficult to live through, but they passed and I'm fine now.

But I do also think it's possible for anyone to frame a trip in a healthy way and avoid lasting psychological harm. I think that teenagers have the highest incidence of lasting negative repercussions because they simply haven't had time yet to become stable in their own personalities nor learned the skills necessary to have control over how they deal with their emotions. Which is why I don't recommend psychedelics to teenagers. Yes, some are ready, but a lot aren't.

Clearly lasting psychological problems are a reality for some people from psychedelics, but I just wonder whether it has to be that way, or if it boils down to the way those people have chosen to deal with the experience.

 

[Bagseed]

Clearly lasting psychological problems are a reality for some people from psychedelics, but I just wonder whether it has to be that way, or if it boils down to the way those people have chosen to deal with the experience.

sure you got a point, but sometimes you cannot really chose how you feel about something... when dealing with anxiety, panic attacks, DP/DR (all things I unfortunately have lots of experience with now), it is extremely hard to accept it and learn how to live with it. only ever since I realized that I have to take things as they are and make the best of it, my mental health has improved, yet I am still not free from these feelings, maybe it'll take even more years to completely get over it. it is a fight I am fighting for well over two years now.

that's why I got really angry and emotional about this thread. telling people who have mental health problems that it is "just in their heads" is just ignorant and arrogant... fuck yeah we know that it's in our heads, but this makes it even harder and more frightening to deal with. it's not something you can just choose to turn of, for fucks sake, and healing takes time and a lot of energy and willpower. and somebody who has never experienced this and is all like "yeah harden up dude" can just go fuck himself.

 

[Kl519]

I disagree. I think, when giving Harm Reduction advice, you should disregard your own experiences as much as possible, and focus on what's tried and tested. More times than I can count, I see people on here recommending a first timer to take an eight of shrooms. while it might be fine from their -personal- experience, it is insane to tell this someone you don't know at all.

I've been a PD regular for quite some years now, and OP is the typical example of a member who only talks about what -he- does and how -he- can use the shit out of psychedelics, and how well -he- can handle it and at the same time can't fathom that it might be completely different for others. It's fine to talk about one's experience, but I think this site is not only for profiling yourself, but rather to help others with less knowledge by giving reasonable advice.

Fair enough. I may have only been here since last year, but I've been in the scene for a while. Maybe the diction is kind of harsh, but it's also what I think is a reality that some people do need to step it up. I can't say it specifically for anyone on this board (except for some of those help threads), but it's a message that is hardly expounded upon here that can be valuable to someone out there. Imo.

Imagine if that's all someone needed to hear to get over some of their problems. The implication you are better than that, bigger than that, than to just let yourself get fucked over from a psychedelic experience and pretty much lay on the ground without fighting. It may not be a nice way to say it, but it seems that at least some help threads appear to be doing just that. Just overthinking everything and making it much, much bigger than it actually is.

I see what you're saying. There isn't only one right away to go about this. I myself wouldn't make recommendations that are dangerous to first timers, and I'm sure I never have. If you're talking about what the OP posted entirely, I can't vouch for anything except for that one point. That was kind of my thing there, not anything else.

 

[MedicinalHeroin]

I dont think psychedelics are as safe as your OP makes them out to be, but overall I agree with you. I think most lingering problems I read about here and on other drug forums are totally caused by people having a hard time adjusting to their newfound perspectives, which is why mentally preparing yourself for tripping and controlling your doses is so important.

 

[Kl519]

I dont think psychedelics are as safe as your OP makes them out to be, but overall I agree with you. I think most lingering problems I read about here and on other drug forums are totally caused by people having a hard time adjusting to their newfound perspectives, which is why mentally preparing yourself for tripping and controlling your doses is so important.

Yeah, I don't either. Some are safe physically, but the caveat is that they can be mentally dangerous.

Ya he should've worded it better, but imo his point shouldn't be tossed aside. Psychedelics are no joke, whereas stims/empathogens are a cakewalk, so they aren't for the faint of mind. Like you said, it requires mental preparation and an ability to persevere intense, mental...fuckage, for lack of a better word.

The theme of my post was to let the psychedelic trippers know that they are messing with some of the strongest mental substances that exist, and a tough mindset is absolutely necessary. That is for sure, especially at high doses. If they're going to fall down, wave the white flag and then complain about the substance (or experience), well...they're not doing it right. It's called accountability, and personal improvements can make all the difference. =/

I'm sure you realize this though.

I do agree that trauma from bad trips seems to be preventable in general. I've had a variety of horrifying hell trips but many of them now number among my most valuable trips. I think that a certain brand of person tends to obsess over the events they experienced and convince themselves that they are now "fucked up", when they could have chosen instead of say, hey, the trip is over, I'm back to baseline, yeah it was frightening, maybe I won't ever take a psychedelic again, but it's over, now let's focus on maybe WHY I felt that way and try to learn something. The memory of the trip becomes not just shrouded in negativity, but you can start to see the positives that could come from it, and sudden;y the event does not seem so traumatic. That's my technique and it's always worked for me.

I think it probably has a lot to do with how close to a "control freak" (yes, pretty negative term but everyone understands what it means) a person is. Some people become VERY uncomfortable when they lose "control" (not that we ever really have control over everything) and some people have an easier time with it. Personally I love the lack of control that psychedelics make me realize I have, it's refreshing and illuminating. Maybe that's why I have never had one of those traumatic bad trips people talk about. I've had terrifying experiences where I was sure I was dying, that were difficult to live through, but they passed and I'm fine now.

But I do also think it's possible for anyone to frame a trip in a healthy way and avoid lasting psychological harm. I think that teenagers have the highest incidence of lasting negative repercussions because they simply haven't had time yet to become stable in their own personalities nor learned the skills necessary to have control over how they deal with their emotions. Which is why I don't recommend psychedelics to teenagers. Yes, some are ready, but a lot aren't.

Clearly lasting psychological problems are a reality for some people from psychedelics, but I just wonder whether it has to be that way, or if it boils down to the way those people have chosen to deal with the experience.

This is what I respect about Xorkoth. I can't even do this, but he's doing it right. It's why I never particularly liked lsd, since the constant head fuck just became a drag to deal with. I thought my mindset was strong enough, but lsd put me in my place a few times.

I kind of do have an issue with control, and that particular issue has to do with the things I've endured that were beyond my control, in which I suffered a lot. Even with my careful nature and analytical approach, and even being at peace with myself and all of my hardships, I still wasn't ready for some of those lsd experiences. So now I just avoid them entirely. If people are doing less than this, then I'm not surprised if they have mental breakdowns when they take a strong psych like acid.

And I don't blame the substance, I blame myself for taking it in the first place. But I'm in a good place mentally, even right after the bad trips. it's just not enjoyable anymore.

And my rant is over. I'll leave this thread alone. And sorry for referring to you in third person Xorkoth.