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The Big & Dandy Psychedelic Therapy Thread

Indeed, I feel that the MDMA dose must be kept very low for this to work well. Just enough to cause a light serotonin release to open up the barriers and let the LSD experience flow. Too high of an MDMA dose would make the experience too false and "recreational" (even though i find therapeutic trips can indeed be recreational but high MDMA dose seems to give me raw recreation), not to mention the speedy amphetamine side effects that might just put the person back into that frazzled unintegrating trip they were in before the MDMA came on. One thing I've noticed in the few days after is instead of my usual sketchy hangover i get from a real MDMA experience, i had a light pleasant afterglow. I find this of utmost importance to integration after the trip. An MDMA hangover can certainly be detrimental to gaining any benefit from a therapeutic trip.
 
From the point of view of maximizing afterglow and minimizing hangover, for purposes of allowing integration and application of psychedelic insight; might the 2C-halogens (alone) be a more fruitful avenue than (or at least, as fruitful an avenue as) combined MDMA/LSD?

I base this suggestion on the reported empathogenic aspects of 2C-B and my own (limited) experience of 2C-C as providing precisely the barrier-lowering empathogenic effects required during the come-up to a psychedelic peak (intensely so, at 66 mg oral + 10 mg intranasal).

For me, an added advantage of 2C-C is that it seems to provide this empathogenesis and euphoria during the come-down as well as the come-up (symmetrically so about the peak, in the case of oral administration), which could promote integration (on the way out of the trip) as well as acceptance (on the way into the trip). It seems to me that the relative durations of MDMA and LSD would preclude this.

Then again, I felt hints of dissociation during the peak of my more intense 2C-C experience, which could serve to make integration more difficult.
 
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Yes, that crossed my mind. The fact that they use 2C-B in therapy might mean that that's their single chemical of choice for having an entactogenic yet deep experience without going into combinations of drugs with different durations.

The MDMA/LSD was my choice mainly because of availability, but I just recieved a shipment of 2C-E and 4-ACO-DIPT, 2C-C was available but because of the higher dose needed and the fact that 2C-E seems deeper and more conducive to continued exploration i felt i would get more value for my money out of 2C-E.

I wonder if the empathogenic effects of 2C-E provide acceptance on the way in and integration on the way out as you describe about 2C-C.

I'll have a low MDMA dose on hand incase acceptance on the way in doesn't come, I feel this is more important as if acceptance is not reached in a trip, the whole thing is just a painful mess that sticks with you instead of an afterglow.

I plan on taking 15 mg of 2C-E (i'm 120 pounds, 5'10" male) in 2 weeks
 
uniter said:
The MDMA/LSD was my choice mainly because of availability, but I just recieved a shipment of 2C-E and 4-ACO-DIPT, 2C-C was available but because of the higher dose needed and the fact that 2C-E seems deeper and more conducive to continued exploration i felt i would get more value for my money out of 2C-E.

I wonder if the empathogenic effects of 2C-E provide acceptance on the way in and integration on the way out as you describe about 2C-C.
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Hmm... I've had quite a few 2C-E experiences, most of which were full +++s, and never did I note the empathogenesis I noted on 2C-C; nor indeed a euphoric come-up (on the contrary, the come-up was generally a bit edgy for me, iirc), although the beautiful and profound psychedelia of the peaks of these experiences produced euphoric delight in themselves (as I think any full psychedelic experience may). But of course my 2C-E experiences all preceded all of my 2C-C experiences by a year or two, and differences in my baseline mental state may explain some of the differences in perceived effects.

I do think 2C-C can be quite as deep (perhaps more so, in my experience; because of this enabling effect of empathic openness, which allows one to dive deeper than one otherwise might) as 2C-E, if taken at an appropriate dose and in appropriate set and setting. But, yes, dose is an issue (although, if insufflated, it ain't so bad; but then insufflation wouldn't be much use for producing the slow and gentle empathic come-up), as is duration perhaps... but then isn't an hour (roughly the duration of a 2C-C peak) a fairly typical duration for a therapy session?

I'll have a low MDMA dose on hand incase acceptance on the way in doesn't come, I feel this is more important as if acceptance is not reached in a trip, the whole thing is just a painful mess that sticks with you instead of an afterglow.

I plan on taking 15 mg of 2C-E (i'm 120 pounds, 5'10" male) in 2 weeks
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Mightn't it be worth giving 2C-E a full trip to itself before combining? You may not be able to judge (from within the trip) how productive and integrable it's going to be. Either way, I hope it goes well for you. 2C-E has been mindbogglingly thought-provoking and beautiful for me on many occasions. :)
 
Yes, i suppose i should give the 2C-E a chance to show it's true colours before combining. The fact that it's a phenethylamine leads to believe that it will be more empathic. When i take mescaline (cactus extract) i always have a very entactogenic, deep beautiful experience with a nice afterglow, i'm hoping 2C-E follows the trend of experiences that phenethylamines give me.
 
uniter said:
Yes, i suppose i should give the 2C-E a chance to show it's true colours before combining. The fact that it's a phenethylamine leads to believe that it will be more empathic. When i take mescaline (cactus extract) i always have a very entactogenic, deep beautiful experience with a nice afterglow, i'm hoping 2C-E follows the trend of experiences that phenethylamines give me.
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Oh, afterglows (in the sense of several days of lifted mood and motivation following the trip) I certainly have had from 2C-E. Just not the entactogenesis or consistent positivity that, thus far, 2C-C seems to have for me during the trip itself (even when my heart seemed to be going crazy - most likely from excessive cannabis + cannabinoids on top of the 2C-C come-up - it didn't take the trip to a negative or unproductive place in the long run, and I was still able to engage with the trip quite nicely once the symptoms had passed... indeed, the openness of my mental state allowed me to integrate the experience of the symptoms in a positive and humbling way).
 
Ya, i've read experiences that indicate 2C-E as being more of a non-positive classical type psychedelic. I found the one saving grace that helped in a big way on my MDMA/LSD trip was going for a walk when the come-up anxiety was becoming excessive. If the 2C-E starts to get ugly i'll definitely go outside for a stroll, does wonders for inducing a meditative thought flow. I'll just have to bundle up, it can get quite chilly at night-time in southern Ontario (Canada) in January :p
 
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If MDMA and LSD have been used in combination in psychedelic therapy in the past, I doubt it will ever happen again. Here's what I posted in another thread:

Ecstasy and LSD is the most intense combination I've ever experienced...but then I did take 2 fire pills and 7 hits of liquid. I felt like I was in magical rainbow land.

On a more serious note, however, 5-HT2 receptor agonists have been shown to increase MDMA neurotoxicity in rats (see Gudelsky, Yamamoto, & Nash, 1994, found online at http://www.maps.org/w3pb/new/1994/1994_gudelsky_634_1.pdf), and with LSD and other hallucinogens being 5-HT2 agonists (Aghajanian & Marek, 1999, found online at http://www.maps.org/w3pb/new/1999/1999_Aghajanian_22706_1.pdf), I'd be cautious about candy flipping more than rarely, if at all.

Personally speaking, I have only done it once (the experience I mentioned above), and if I ever were to do it again, it would be the last time.
 
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^^ I've always felt a good way to measure neurotoxicity is how awful you feel after the experience. After a good ~140mg MDMA dose i have a great time, but i'm a serotonin depleted wreck for the following week, i try to moderate it with 5-htp and st. john's wort. After my experience with ~80mg MDMA with ~100ug LSD i had no serotonin depletion hangover at all, in fact i had an afterglow. I think the numero uno factor to neurotoxicity is the DOSE, If you don't overdo it I find it to be less neurotoxic than a good MDMA experience by itself.

Don't forget, the purpose of the MDMA dose in combination to LSD in therapy is to ease the psychological barriers of the subject to let the experience flow and integrate, only a very low dose of MDMA is required for this. I'm gonna take a look at the articles tho, see if they can expand my knowledge on the subject.

EDIT: Both the articles say "File Not Found"
 
uniter said:
^^ I've always felt a good way to measure neurotoxicity is how awful you feel after the experience. After a good ~140mg MDMA dose i have a great time, but i'm a serotonin depleted wreck for the following week, i try to moderate it with 5-htp and st. john's wort. After my experience with ~80mg MDMA with ~100ug LSD i had no serotonin depletion hangover at all, in fact i had an afterglow. I think the numero uno factor to neurotoxicity is the DOSE, If you don't overdo it I find it to be less neurotoxic than a good MDMA experience by itself.

Don't forget, the purpose of the MDMA dose in combination to LSD in therapy is to ease the psychological barriers of the subject to let the experience flow and integrate, only a very low dose of MDMA is required for this. I'm gonna take a look at the articles tho, see if they can expand my knowledge on the subject.

EDIT: Both the articles say "File Not Found"
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Good points. I just doubt the risk would be allowed to be taken, unless research were to show that LSD + MDMA is safe and more effective in psychotherapy than LSD or MDMA alone.
 
^^ Ya, i hear ya. And the fact that they already have used 2C-B in therapy which would probably serve the purpose of making "LSD entactogenic by adding a bit of MDMA" in a single chemical.

One thing i find with these journal articles; I calculated what the mg/kg dose they gave the rats in the first article would be for my 55kg body and it came out to 550mg for MDMA, 110mg for DOI, and 825mg for 5-meo-DMT (and that's injected, no pass through the liver). Good Lord! no wonder they found it neurotoxic, if I wasn't dead after that I would probably be wishing I was! The brain fry and the psychosis that would undoubtedly be produced would be unbearable, the rat was likely thankful when it got decapitated 7 days later
 
Very true. That's why there's a vigorous debate among MDMA researchers right now about dose scaling from rats to humans: One group believes that neurotoxic doses (mg/kg) are about equivalent across species, and the other group believes that the neurotoxic dose (mg/kg) is lower in humans. The latter case has more frequently been accurate, whereby humans are more strongly affected by similar doses. However, that isn't always the case. And thus, the debate continues...
 
Psychedelic Therapy

Please move this if necessary.

I am at a stage in my life where I am mostly past recreational drug use and am interested in being involved in psychedelic sessions aided by either a professional trip sitter or by a therapist that is involved in underground psychedelic therapy. Is it possible to find people locally that may be involved in this? If so, does anyone know how I might go about doing so?

Thank you.
 
What a great question... =D
Waiting for responses... I live in Australia though... anyone?
Google: Ayahuasca retreats
^They do this stuff, mostly in South America. Sounds kosher. Genuine shamans onsite, etc. Almost sounds worth the flight over...
 
While I have no doubt that there are many clandestine therapists out there using psychedelics in their work, the draconian drug laws of the modern world means these therapists risk being professionally blacklisted and losing their professional accreditation (at the very least) by doing so.

I am a fully trained therapist myself and am currently exploring the use of psychedelics as an adjunct to therapy through online research and self experimentation along with my partner (also a trained counsellor). I could certainly see myself taking the skills and knowledge I gain to a wider audience in the future because I believe it's an area that is potentially of immense value to many people, but I would be very cautious about doing so to minimise my liability.

There are legal alternatives of course. As Hive Mind suggests, you could travel to South America to take part in an Ayahuasca or cactus retreat, or you could look at Ibogaine therapy centres (which are legal in many parts of the world). Both of these options are expensive though. You could also look at the MAPS website and see if there are any research studies you could put yourself forward for.

Good luck in your quest anyway. I hope you find what you're looking for :)
 
Well, I've heard of an underground therapist in Israel who charges you 250$ for a three hour mushroom session. I just wouldn't trust a person like that to posses the required skills.
Sometimes you can be your own best therapist. When I'm high I much rather roll things in my mind then relate them to an outside person. It's too tiresome.
Psychedelics remove your sensory and cognitive filters. When you're tripping, try to write down everything you feel. When you are sober it's time to sort out the resulting mess and try to make sense out of it. Remember, when tripping, much like in dreaming, everything surfaces.
I believe taking a drug is only the start of a journey, one which goes on long after the comedown.
 
Multi merged :) this subject has epic written on it. Or interesting at the very least. There might be potential for a subthread about the history of psychedelic therapy?
Also, look at the bunny in the OP!

So, sidestyle asked about this general, now big and dandified subject, last post of previous thread... if you are confused, I combined these threads together to make the discussion more central. Please do continue.
 
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The HiVe MiND said:
What a great question... =D
Waiting for responses... I live in Australia though... anyone?
Google: Ayahuasca retreats
^They do this stuff, mostly in South America. Sounds kosher. Genuine shamans onsite, etc. Almost sounds worth the flight over...
Click to expand...


A lot of this ayahuasca stuff is culty and very questionable. Be careful. Especially when you will be in another country! 8) ... you can find sessions in major urban areas if you know the right people too... you can also find legitimate underground therapists, but again, discernment is important because there are a lot of cults, bullshit artists, and general sketch balls abounding in the scene. If you find the right people, it can be truly wonderful, but if you dont, you can be in for a lot of trouble.

If I may shamelessly plug my forum, esotericPharma, it has a special focus on therapeutic applications ... but you will not find sources, referrals to the underground, etc. ... anything illegal ... there ... but a lot of like-minded folks.
 
Conquering anxiety/low self-esteem with LSD

So I have always had problems with anxiety(especially social) and low self-esteem and I have heard stories about people taking LSD to help treat anxiety, depression, self-esteem issues, or whatever. I just tripped last weekend so I'm going to take about a month breather before I dive back in but I want to get something out of this next one more than just some crazy visuals.
So my question is: is there anything in specific I would need to do to help myself deal with these issues while I am tripping. Like things to tell myself, preparation before, etc.
I'm not sure if anyone can really answer this because it's a personal battle I have to fight but I just thought it wouldn't hurt to ask for suggestions
Thanks a bunch!

Love & Peace,
Ben
 
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