The Big & Dandy Natural vs. Chemical / Synthetic Psychedelics Thread

[Focus on Magic]

I'm sorry Mr chemist..but with all do respect..cocaine does not grow in plants..its produced by man therefore its a man made processed drug. please tell me i'm wrong .

And as far as the proof, its within me.. as it is with others.

I'm not saying all organic plants or whatever are good, because they are not, some can and will kill you if ingested. I'm specificly talking about the cactas(peyote)

Now can you honestly tell me that you can produce with man made chemicals the same exact make up of a peyote button that has been growing for 100years(i'm not talking about isolating mescaline.i'm talking about every single alkaloid and compound the the cactas) and still have the same experience(trip) when ingested?

i highly doubt you can honestly say that.. search your heart..you know i'm right..just admit it

 

[adrian89987]

I believe that originally most cocaine did come from plants, grown in the coca plant. I do not factually know where the majority of cocaine out there nowadays does come from though.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coca#Pharmacological_aspects
Unless everyone is just mistaken and perhaps you should enlighten the world. The molecule itself is made in a plant making it a natural molecule. In order to consume oral DMT you must make a man-made preparation of DMT-containing plants.

And no I can't honestly say that you can reproduce the cactus experience with a synthetic combination because I don't like to state things as fact without evidence. But I can hypothesize that if you gave someone a combination of chemicals that were all synthetically made but of the same ratio as in peyote and put it in a preparation that looked like however you traditionally consume peyote and told someone it was in fact just that cactus itself that it would produce a near identical experience. But again this is a hypothesis, I don't tout things as fact unless I have good evidence to support that argument.

And searching my heart I know you think you are right, but in fact I truly believe you are mistaken and creating a difference where there really isn't. Man is just a beautiful and amazing as the rest of nature and I won't have people telling me that I am evil or dirty.

 

[greenmeanies]

wow, this discussion degraded quickly.

Focus on Magic, cocaine is indeed produced 100% by a plant. It is *concentrated* by man just like caffeine is diluted by a coffee maker. Does the chemical concentration process somehow remove some of the "God-force" present in the plant?

I'm going to stand by my current understanding of the scientific world. We do not have any evidence that there is something "special" about things produced inside cells of living things, compared to things produced inside glass tubes under the careful direction of intelligent men.

I fully believe that there are SEVERAL man-made psychedelic drugs that are just as useful, just as spiritual, just as TRUTH-FILLED as natural peyote or natural mushrooms.

The "devil's poison" or "false doors" are NOT contained in the chemicals! They are contained inside ourselves!

I bet if you gave peyote to Charles Manson, he'd become EVEN MORE sociopathic, reinforcing his twisted views about the world and people in it.

I bet if you gave MDMA to Jesus Christ, he would turn all the water in the world into MDMA so we could put down our guns and shut the fuck up.

When I was in Mexico on an expedition with my friend Gordon Wasson in 1963, in search of a hallucinogenic plant, we also visited the famous curandera Maria Sabina in Huautla de Jimenez. We were invited to attend a nocturnal mushroom ceremony in her hut, but as it was late in the year and no more mushrooms were available, I supplied her with pills containing synthetic psilocybin. She took a rather strong dose corresponding to the number of mushrooms she usually ingests. It was a gala performance assisted by a number of people of Maria Sabina’s clan. At dawn when we left the hut, our Mazateca interpreter told us that Maria Sabina had said there was no difference between the pills and the mushrooms. This was a final proof that our synthetic psilocybin was identical in every respect with the natural product.

 

[adrian89987]

Good man A.H.

This discussion has gone downhill indeed, perhaps I shouldn't feed the fire anymore.

 

[Focus on Magic]

really.. your basing that on one ladys experience? that s a joke

and cocaine isnt produced by a plant..its produced from a plant..then its proccessed into cocaine.. theres no debate about that ,..i mean come on.. really? i think some people are just hating on me now and whatever i say thier gonna argue against it.. whatever...i'm done

peace

 

[adrian89987]

Cocaine is a chemical, not a preparation.

 

[Focus on Magic]

cocaine is a chemical thats prepared(proccessed)

 

[greenmeanies]

NO

You are simply wrong now. Learn to read.

First off, Maria Sabina is not "one lady", she is probably 100x the psychonautical shaman as any of us here. I bet she deciphered the clues to eternal life, telepathy, and time travel.

Secondly, 100% COCAINE IS PRODUCED BY A PLANT. IT IS CONCENTRATED BY MAN.

Come back to this thread after you pass freshman chemistry.

 

[Focus on Magic]

i'm never coming back to this thread cuz i'm getting treaded like an asshole..fuck this site you can keep it

 

[adrian89987]

Thanks...

Anyway, maybe this can get back to useful dicussion..?

 

[✝SLAVERY✝]

i'm never coming back to this thread cuz i'm getting treaded like an asshole..fuck this site you can keep it

'bout time. 8)

Everything you've posted just proves to everybody here you don't know what you are talking about. No point in arguing that. If you aren't willing to listen to advice and research (especially from those who are qualified chemists and clearly know what they are talking about) then good riddance.

 

[greenmeanies]

Focus on Magic, I'm sorry if I offended you. I simply cannot stand for misinformation when I have been trained well in the science and art of chemistry. In order for knowledge to move forward, we must be diligent in keeping our ideas clear of prejudice. However we must also be open to new possibilities.

I will agree with you that there are certain manmade drugs that are indeed poisons to the mind and spirit. Many of these drugs are being sold by the millions to "depressed" people. I have seen it firsthand in my own grandmother who nearly died this year on her antidepressant medication. She was acting like a meth-head tweaker, staying up watching TV until 4AM and ordering pizza instead of eating dinner in the dining room at 5PM at her elderly community. She's 92 years old.

I must respectfully disagree about some kind of "God-force" that is contained in natural plant products. Our greatest scientific minds have designed incredible tools that can tell us about the interior of a single atom, and yet we have found zero evidence that there is something different between naturally produced and synthetically produced.

Indeed, the "natural" production of mescaline and related alkaloids inside of peyote is caused by a most ingenious harmony of enzymes, transport proteins, and sugars which provide the catalyst and power to form the end-product. The biochemistry of alkaloid production is deeply fascinating to me. The simple theory that every mutation that produces these changes is brought about by random chance is even more mind-blowing. But I am equally in awe of the immense power of the human intellect to design reaction schemes that can produce compounds that would NEVER be found in a natural setting. Analogs and homologs that feed our voracious appetite for understanding what exactly is going on. Teaching ourselves things about ourselves that we never knew we never knew.

I believe that chemists like Albert Hoffman and Sasha Shulgin and David Nichols have been touched deeply by the divine presence that we all are in communication with. Some of their research has produced dead-ends, chemicals that are neither useful nor interesting. But those dead-ends give us knowledge about the human mind! Those dead-ends allow us to put a mark in the great Book of Knowledge of Good and Evil, saying "I have a better understanding of what the hell is going on, because A works, B doesn't, and C is a poison!"

Chemistry may not be your strong suit. But I hope you can find what truly sets your heart on fire like chemistry has done to me. There is no room in this world for misinformation. Follow your own path to truth and do your best to lead others onto their correct paths as well.

peace and love.

 

[Focus on Magic]

yea ok..i dont know what i'm talking about? just because 5 rejects that are haters try to discredit me.. no..fuck that.. i do know what i'm talking about.. and i knnow there's others out there that agree.. if they are reading all this not not saying anything then they are scared to be flamed.. or they are not dumb enough to be on this site..either way..fuck you and everyone else that treated me like an asshole

i dont need this site for anything

 

[adrian89987]

There are people supporting the 'natural-only' viewpoint in this very thread that have not been flamed at all. Whys that? Because they make the effort to present well formulated arguments for their opinions. You attack the posters that disagree calling us rejects, drug abusers, etc. My first poster in response to you was simply a response the points of your argument... no hate included. In fact I don't think I have flamed you or been harsh at all in any of my posts. I simply want you to support your arguments with more than Because I Said So type arguments.

 

[skillet]

Well said GM. FoM, can you post something useful or GTFO.

 

[Focus on Magic]

Greenmeanies- For the record..i never said God was in the plant/cactas.. but the key to the knowledge is

God is with in all of us.. so is the knowlegde.. we just have to remember it..or unlock the door.. my argument.. the man made shit can and will lead you through a false door and lead you to believe false hoods therefore being decieved

 

[skillet]

Ok, so why the hate on the synthetics? Is not (wo)man a part of nature? And LSD is totally synthetic anyway. And can be equally deceitful...

Maybe you should stick to shrooms/weed if natural is what you want and quit trying to tell everyone else what to do.

 

[Seattle_Stranger]

This thread was cool.

And, not for nothin', but...

i'm never coming back to this thread cuz i'm getting treaded like an asshole..fuck this site you can keep it

How many times are you going to say you're not coming back to the thread, and then come back anyway to reply again? Just sayin'....if you're trying to be taken seriously, stand by your word and don't make a bunch of empty threats. It's obvious why these people are bashing you and not giving you the credit you think you deserve because...well....just read your posts. You're getting way too defensive about your theory that, quite frankly, isn't making sense to anybody. You seem to be taking your own religious opinions as facts and not even considering the scientific evidence, experience and knowledge that others are trying to share because you're so caught up in playing defense and bashing this website, threatening how you're going to leave it, etc..

I'm not trying to be a dick, I'm simply saying either stand behind your word and just leave already, or present a reasonable debate with evidence to back up your point. Otherwise this "shitty website" and the people on it aren't really interested in your nonsense babbling.

Cool?

 

[adrian89987]

my argument.. the man made shit can and will lead you through a false door and lead you to believe false hoods therefore being decieved

Why? Support..

My argument... 2c-b when taken enough will grant you wings and a flaming sword.

 

[huolesoh]

scientists vs. shaman

it's just a variety of perspectives