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The Big and Dandy Endogenous Psychedelics Thread (mega-merged)!

Well, given that bufotenine is endogenous, I would guess it's not toxic at all. There has been lots of controversy given the subject of the toxicity of bufotenine recently, and I don't know what to make of it, but my guess is it's not toxic in the brain as it seems to produce toxic PNS effects only in some forms (such as the HCL salt form, which is unavoidable if it is consumed orally) - possibly because of the poor BBB crossing properties of these forms. Whatever the case - it's highly unlikely something toxic to the body would be produced endogenously. It sounds like an evolutionary contradiction.
 
e1evene1even said:
thanks!!!! =D

I would've guessed Xorkoth, lol ;)
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Most of the time if something is done before 9am or after 6pm US Eastern time, it's not me. :)

Unless it's the weekend. Then I'm probably only on late at night while I'm in an altered state ;)

EDIT: And since it's now 9:42, I have thusly updated the Best of PD page to link to here.
 
Recept said:
Well, given that bufotenine is endogenous, I would guess it's not toxic at all. There has been lots of controversy given the subject of the toxicity of bufotenine recently, and I don't know what to make of it, but my guess is it's not toxic in the brain as it seems to produce toxic PNS effects only in some forms (such as the HCL salt form, which is unavoidable if it is consumed orally) - possibly because of the poor BBB crossing properties of these forms. Whatever the case - it's highly unlikely something toxic to the body would be produced endogenously. It sounds like an evolutionary contradiction.
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You have to remember that the amount of bufotenin or DMT being produced endogenously is miniscule; it's produced at completely non-toxic concentrations. If you were to administer an effective dose, you'd probably raise the levels 1000-fold.

Secondly, the fact that it is found endogenously means nothing in functional terms; evolution is hugely redundant and imperfect. Notice how many genes have overlapping functions, and how much of our genome is non-coding DNA; it's not difficult to imagine that many endogenous molecules and proteins are accidental byproducts. Think of the steady state of an organism as an equilibrium of biochemical reactions, rather than a fine tuned machine.

BTW, it's good to have you here Recept ... I enjoy your posts. ;)
 
^ Thanks, it's nice to be here too :)

Anyway, I have to admit that I mostly agree with the view of these chemicals probably being byproducts of evolution, I just like to consider other possibilities as well since nothing is known for a fact in this area. You gotta admit some of these theories involving endogenous psychedelics are fascinating, and it will be interesting to see them either confirmed or disproven one day, whichever happens to be the case.

Regarding the comments on our genome, it is my understanding that we still know very little about DNA and many things we don't understand at the moment (like overlapping functions of genes, or "junk DNA") might still prove to have some sort of purpose or meaning hidden in them. Personally I believe DNA plays a far greater role in life on Earth than science is currently aware of and most people dare to speculate.
 
Good points Dondante. Although it strikes me as awfully coincidental that a substance such as DMT is produced endogenously if it has no point, considering the incredible effect that said molecule has on the human experience.
 
^^^the body produces a lot of chemicals that are just side products

DMT isn't the only endogenously produced compound that has psychoactive effects when you raise the concentration by at least three orders of magnitude.
 
Xorkoth said:
Good points Dondante. Although it strikes me as awfully coincidental that a substance such as DMT is produced endogenously if it has no point, considering the incredible effect that said molecule has on the human experience.
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That's what I thought at first ... it's awfully coincidental. But if you think about it, it would be much, much more incredible if there was a hallucinogen that shared no structural similarities with any endogenous compounds, and had it's very own receptor in the human brain. In that case, there'd be justified speculation. ;)

As for DMT, it's not really that big of a surprise at all. Sure, it's still a coincidence that certain plant species produce DMT, particularly when DMT has no known function in the plants, but considering the how ubiquitous tryptophan is in nature, you've gotta assume there will be many variations on the same molecule.
 
This is pretty interesting. I wasn't aware that an endogenous PCP/ketamine compound was already discovered. Alpha-Endopsychosin what a nice name. 8)

I wonder how much of a role it plays in mystical experience? It doesn't look like there's been much research done on it.

It makes a lot of sense that the brain would release something like Alpha-Endopsychosin during NDE's (trauma induced) for the neuroprotective effects. Also most reports of astral travel usually have the ego much more intact than your average DMT trip, so maybe an endogenous dissociative of some kind is involved here as well.



Neuroscience and the near-death experience: roles for the NMSA-PCP receptor said:
Med Hypotheses (1990) 31: 25-9.
KL Jansen
Department of Anatomy, University of Auckland Medical School, New Zealand.


The Near-Death Experience (NDE) is a dissociative mental state with characteristic features. These can be reproduced by ketamine which acts at sigma sites and blocks N-methyl-D-aspartate (NMDA) linked phencyclidine (PCP) receptors to reduce ischaemic damage. Endogenous ligands, alpha and beta-endopsychosin, have been detected for these receptors which suggests an explanation for some NDE's: the endopsychosins may be released in abnormal quantity to protect neurons from ischaemic and other excitotoxic damage, and the NDE is a side effect on consciousness with important psychological functions.
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Evidence for an endogenous peptide ligand and antagonist for PCP receptors. Prog-Clin-Biol-Res. 192: said:
Contreras-PC; DiMaggio-DA; O'Donohue-TL (1985) 495-8
"Alpha-Endopsychosin, an endogenous ligand for the phencyclidine receptor, has been
isolated from porcine brain. The endogenous ligand is a peptide and has similar actions to
PCP and is selectively distributed in the brain. A PCP analogue, Metaphit, has also been
found to be an effective PCP antagonist. This antagonist may be useful for evaluating the role
of the brain's alpha-endopsychosin system and may have a number of important clinical
uses."
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more
 
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How DMT is created, stored, and used in the brain

This is how I heard DMT is created, stored, and used in the brain. I'm sure there's something incorrect or altered about it. I would really love to know some more about this as erowid is somewhat limited on this subject.

DMT is created when you're born. Its stored in your brain, and released when you die. How much is circulated or stored in the brain is unknown to me.

This sounds like it could be false information. If anyone could shed some light on it that would be great!
 
Read DMT: The Spirit Molecule by Dr.Rick Strassman.

Dr. Strassman is the leading researcher on DMT and has a permit from the DEA to study it in human volunteers. I own this book and it is one of my favorites on psychedelics. It is relatively easy to read and extremely interesting. He does a great job of explaining how DMT is produced and works in the brain and body.

http://www.amazon.com/DMT-Molecule-...bs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1201406859&sr=8-1

At only $12 it's quite the steal.
 
I also agree that The Spirit Molecule is a great book on DMT.... I am yet to take the journey yet as until the last week or two I have not felt ready enough in the past 2 years to try it. I will prob have to do an extraction
 
hush.dir said:
and released when you die.
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Dr. Rick Strassman, while conducting DMT research in the 1990s at the University of New Mexico, advanced the theory that a massive release of DMT from the pineal gland prior to death or near death was the cause of the near death experience (NDE) phenomenon.
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its a theory

and thanks to the inhuman war on drug (personal liberty) we dont know enough about most of them
 
^ matter of fact this is going there now *poof* thanks neal
 
Yeah the Strassman book is pretty good but he does go off on a few new-agey tangents here and there. It's easy to tell the authentic research from the speculation though. The experiences section of that book is really damn good too, some great descriptions of DMT trips.
 
How DMT is created, stored, & used in the brain. Answers

I've checked on Erowid about this before posting. They're somewhat limited on answers.

How is DMT stored in the brain? How much DMT does the brain carry naturally? What is it used for? And how is is created?

I've heard rumours that DMT is created when you're born and stored until you die, which its then released. This sounds a little too much. If its true that's pretty interesting.

If anyone can shed some light on this, that would be very helpful! Thank you!
 
There are theories that it is released during birth but that babies born via c-sections do not get this release. Some people think that when we are dying there is another release. This perhaps explains much of the near death experience phenomena.
 
Made by action of methionine S-methyl transferase on tryptamine. It's not stored (very short half life) & if you find out how it's used in the brain, invite me to your Nobel prize investiture! =D
 
yeah seriously, we will all be congratulating you and showering drugs and sex upon you if you give us a solid theory.
 
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