The Big and Dandy Endogenous Psychedelics Thread (mega-merged)!

[demons]

There can be no doubt that endogenous chemicals are modulating these experiences. There is no question whatever. That all phases and modes of consciousness are modulated by endogenous (sometimes in concert with exogenous) drugs is a pharmacological fact. This is just the way the brain works. Another example of the brain in action is, any time you get hungry, or find something amusing, or get a good feeling, whether you have just smoked pot or not, your cannabinoid receptors are being activated. Feeling good or doing something you are good at increases levels of dopamine in your brain, the same thing cocaine does. And so forth.

The only question is whether it's DMT or something else. The brain is not known to produce 5meodmt so it's probably not that. Rick Strassman and others have suggested DMT plays a primary role in these types of experiences, but it will have to be determined by experiment. Until then all we have is speculation. However given the subjective similarities between certain spontaneous experiences and certain smoked DMT experiences, a fairly convincing case can be made. Just not a definite one.

 

[Jabberwocky]

Well, there's no doubt that some mix of neurochemicals underpin the activity during mystical experiences.

The specific question on the table is whether an acute release of a significant amount of DMT (or 5-meo-DMT) is the elicitor for the experience.

My bets are on a more cognitive route, possibly a re-structuring of emotional responses to a wide range of stimuli, but I'll have to think about it some more.

 

[Solipsis]

Personally I believe that endogenous chemicals like DMT can trigger experiences like spontaneous mystical states, however what I don't believe is that these chemicals and their orchestration are the only factor to achieve these states of mind. Getting control over ones own mental processes and metaprograms would enable a person to switch them off one by one by either training or artificial means like psychedelics. I believe spiritual states are the result of a neural network disabling some type of activity only to be left with functions that sustain the body without being aware of it. That way the complete makeup of this neural net is in concert with all surrounding matter, tuning in to the actual metaphysics of it. This is often accompanied with residual archetypal images portraiting very basic mental aspects of the person in question.
Yes, I think neurotransmitter(like) substances facilitate this particular state of consciousness - I'm not sure though if I would call the route a cognitive one, it's so far beyond it, it's more like metaprogramming whether it be conscious metaprogramming like yogi and advanced psychonauts use or unconscious / spontaneous metaprogramming triggered by a massive amount of some types of psychedelics or by some special kind of neural/cognitive cascade.

 

[5-HT2]

The specific question on the table is whether an acute release of a significant amount of DMT (or 5-meo-DMT) is the elicitor for the experience.

There is convincing evidence that the brain can produce psychoactive amounts of DMT, but whether it does so under naturalistic physiological conditions is another (and much harder to answer) question entirely.

My bets are on a more cognitive route, possibly a re-structuring of emotional responses to a wide range of stimuli, but I'll have to think about it some more.

I'd also bet on this more distributed, systems-oriented route based on the current state of our knowledge. However, it's possible (though pure speculation at this point) that there's some extremely complex neurochemical/neurophysiological mechanism that can dramatically increase the brain's sensitivity to endogenous psychoactive compounds.

 

[e1evene1even]

I wonder if its also just as likely that in the past, the brain produced much more DMT (or other psychoactive compounds) than it does now?




sad vvv
The Effect of Fluoride on the Physiology of the Pineal Gland:
http://www.fluoridealert.org/health/pineal/luke-1997.html

 

[nealcassady]

endogenous DMT (merged)

so i was reading this post by mulberryman in another thread,

I've found it possible to have tryptaminesque trips by raising serotonin levels to extreme levels (I don't reccomend this though) by combining 5-HTP and tryptophan with various serotonin reuptake inhibitors and other drugs, and even induced trips through raising dopamine levels through high doses of levodopa and reuptake inhibitors as well. (I really don't reccomend this, the comedown is aweful)

which reminded me of something along those same lines from a website i saw few weeks ago and pulled it back up for some second opinions on it..

Self-synthesis of DMT Derivatives

Tryptamine derivatives and beta-Carbolines have been detected as endogenous metabolites in mammals, including humans. Methyl transferases that catalyze the synthesis of tryptamines, including DMT, 5-MeO-DMT and bufotenine, are found in human lung, brain, cerebrospinal fluid, liver and heart (McKenna & Towers 1984). In the pineal gland MAO is the primary inactivation pathway of serotonin, a neurotransmitter synthesized from the amino acid tryptophan. If MAO is blocked by harmine, harmaline or other MAO inhibitors serotonin can be converted by the methyltransferase enzymes HIOMT and INMT into psychedelic tryptamines (serotonin --(HIOMT)--> 5-MeO-trypt. --(2*INMT)--> 5-MeO-DMT).

So, ingesting l-tryptophan to increase serotonin levels, a candy bar to increase the amount of tryptophan getting to your brain and natural plant material containing 25-50 mg harmine/harmaline to block MAO, all at the same time, might cause your pineal gland to synthesize substantial amounts of 5-MeO-DMT (Most 1986). Similar results might be obtained by substituting 5-hydroxytryptophan (5-HTP) for tryptophan. Normal sleep-inducing doses of melatonin have also been taken with reversible MAOIs with the resulting psychoactive effects suggesting significant interaction of the two substances. This is extremely dangerous for persons with existing amine imbalance or schizophrenia. For normal, healthy people possible consequences are bad.

A potent inhibitor of INMT, which is a necessary enzyme for the synthesis of DMT and 5-MeO-DMT, is found in particularly high concentrations in the pineal gland. A bypassing or inhibition of the synthesis of this inhibitor might be responsible for trances and other psychedelic states achieved "without drugs" (Strassman 1990). See Strassman's article for more info and speculation about the pineal gland.

what'dya guys think about 5-meo as being the actual chemical flooding your head from those combinations?

 

[Jabberwocky]

I think it is very likely that you will cause damage by combining MAOIs, SSRIs, and precursors to monoamines-

L-DOPA for instance needs to be carefully monitored and may increase neurotoxicity when MDMA is used days after (insofar as l-Dopa will cause dopamine to be synthesized in serotonergic neurons where it would increase the likelihood of reuptake of dopamine following HT depletion - ie the likely cause of neurotoxicity for MDMA)-

peace and take care-

 

[e1evene1even]

It's possible. But not proven, and potential dangerous to attempt. Speculating, on the other hand can be rather fun.

Dr. James Callaway detected this molecule in the spinal serum of people who were dying, or were having an “Out of body experience (OOBE)”, or who were lucid dreaming. It is Pinoline that enables the threshold levels of DMT to become active in the brain, but it requires an adrenaline burst. DMT with Pinoline increases brain activation, and with its cousin the 5-Methoxy-DMT, has been shown to activate the brain by as much as 40%, compared to our 10% maximum potential at present. This is a frightening prospect for the uninitiated, due to the absolutely overwhelming nature of DMT.

http://www.popocculture.com/50/soma-pinoline-blinded-by-the-light

I would love to find the original source for the Callaway research, as I've seen this claim mentioned numerous places but haven't been able to verify it yet.

Caroline Taylor: Put more specifically; do you feel that endogenous DMT could have a role to play in some future scenario, involving mass major trauma of some kind? This would be followed, potentially, of course, by a sudden evolution of consciousness to a happier state, for some/all of our species? In other words, a biologically-based eschaton? Such a scenario could be the result of some major environmental collapse of course - or some harder to imagine one, involving the final timewave "concresence" in 2012? In either case, do you agree with my feeling that endogenous DMT could, figuratively speaking, be waiting in the wings right now for its star performance, as a vehicle of mass transcendence, or purveyor of large amounts of human (and animal?) consciousness to some other dimension? (I hesitate to say "higher", for it could also be called "deeper", or "fuller.") In any case, the pineal gland (body) could be both the "port" of this vehicle, and possibly a vital "future" organ.

Dr. Rick Strassman: I have been nursing a theory along these lines for some time. Briefly, that the N-methylating enzyme responsible for DMT production turns on in everyone across the planet at the same time, thus ushering in the escahton, messianic age, non-corporeal consciousness, or what have you. This could take place any number of ways; one way is a common cold virus gets a bit of DNA implanted into it that is inserted into all of us, which is programmed to turn on at some specific time, unleashing the N-methylating enzyme effects. This time would be an astrologically determined event, such as solar flare, particular constellation alignment, etc. Of course, along the lines of your interest in John Mack's work, that stimulus for enzyme activation could come from "them."

http://www.diagnosis2012.co.uk/dmt.htm

I just found a fascinating article related to this subject btw.

Soma Pinoline: Blinded By the Light

 

[cornollio]

i was under the impression that dmt being produced from the pineal gland was theory. or was it theory that it used during dreams and out-of-body experiences, and near death exp. ?

 

[Recept]

^ It is a fact that DMT can be synthesized in the body (in a reaction catalyzed by an enzyme called tryptamine-N-methyltransferase), it is the practical application (if any) of it that is still unknown (though there are quite a few theories).

 

[e1evene1even]

DMT is definitely made in the body and although pineal tissue has to the best of my knowledge been shown to synthesis DMT in vivo, DMT being produced by the pineal gland in the body is still a theory. The lungs are also a good candidate for DMT synthesis.

As for the reported Callaway research that describes measuring DMT in the spinal fluid of people having OBE's etc., it makes sense because DMT would be there under normal circumstances as well. Without a comparison of DMT levels with controls, no conclusions as to DMT's role can be ascertained. So far I've only found references to the research but not the research itself. Assuming it exists, it's probably in Finish, which would help explain its obscurity.

I believe much of the information in the second quote of the original post comes from a document called Eros and the Pineal, which is an interesting read.

In 1988 Callaway published a paper called "A proposed mechanism for the visions of dream sleep," (Medical Hypotheses 26:119-124.) which theorizes that visionary tryptamines are synthesized during dreams. If this is the case, it makes a lot of sense to look for compounds that can be synthesized from melatonin.

This is a topic I wish I knew more about. The role of methyl donors is also very important in my opinion. Another important tool is cannabis, which has been shown to increase melatonin levels to 4000% of baseline ("Effects of Tetrahydocannabinol on Melatonin Secretion in Man." Hormone and Metabolic Research 1986). The increase of melatonin accounts for the "burnout" effect. The trick is to then convert all of that 5-methoxy-N-acetyl-tryptamine into something more interesting.

I've personally had some interesting experiences combining cannabis, methyl donors (trimethylglycine), typtophan food sources and B vitamins, although nothing that is beyond what stoned expectation could bring. Auto-suggestion and the 'placebo effect' can be quite powerful and would likely play a key role in any effective technique for 'self-synthesizing DMT'.

That also brings up an interesting point, while our endocrine secretions are believed to be totally autonomic, I believe the goal of many techniques of Eastern spirituality (and also the Western occult tradition) are to learn self-regulation of neurochemistry/endocrine production. Brainwaves were only first discovered in the early 1900's, meanwhile yogi's and mystics have been controlling them for thousands of years.

There is a very simple, yet effective technique I learned in a trance tape by Paul McKenna for self releasing endorphins, so hypothetically the same could also be done for DMT (or whatever the body's internal visionary chemical turns out to be). I don't doubt yogi's are doing something similar...

 

[fastandbulbous]

It's possible. But not proven, and potential dangerous to attempt. Speculating, on the other hand can be rather fun.

Dr. James Callaway detected this molecule in the spinal serum of people who were dying, or were having an “Out of body experience (OOBE)”, or who were lucid dreaming. It is Pinoline that enables the threshold levels of DMT to become active in the brain, but it requires an adrenaline burst. DMT with Pinoline increases brain activation, and with its cousin the 5-Methoxy-DMT, has been shown to activate the brain by as much as 40%, compared to our 10% maximum potential at present. This is a frightening prospect for the uninitiated, due to the absolutely overwhelming nature of DMT.

http://www.popocculture.com/50/soma-...d-by-the-light

I would love to find the original source for the Callaway research, as I've seen this claim mentioned numerous places but haven't been able to verify it yet.





I just found a fascinating article related to this subject btw.

Soma Pinoline: Blinded By the Light

Sort of goes hand in hand with my view here

 

[e1evene1even]

I agree, the time dilation effect you mention seems to be very reminiscent of tryptamine psychedelics. Trauma/stress/shock of some kind seems to be a good catalyst.

Most likely, the primary factor inhibiting excessive pineal DMT production is the supremely efficient pineal security system discussed in the last chapter.

The best-known example of this defense is the difficulty we encounter when trying to stimulate daytime melatonin production.
Adrenaline and noradrenaline, the neurotransmitters that stimulate nighttime melatonin formation, collectively are called catecholamines. Nerve cells nearly touching the pineal gland release these catecholamines, which activate specific receptors on pineal tissue and thus initiate melatonin synthesis.

The adrenal glands also produce adrenaline and noradrenaline, releasing them into the bloodstream in response to stress. However, when blood-borne adrenal catecholamines approach the pineal, the nerve cells around the pineal immediately take up and dispose of them. Therefore, circumstances in which adrenal catecholamine release occurs, such as in times of stress or during exercise, don't stimulate daytime melatonin formation.

...Neuroscientists believe this barrier to pineal activation exists because it would be problematic for an animal to experience its environment as "dark" during daylight hours. Since the pineal normally releases melatonin only at night, daytime melatonin release would "feel" as if it were dark at the "wrong" time, and the animal would be disoriented. However, this explanation is weak. Daytime melatonin secretion is hardly "dangerous" enough to merit such a complex and efficient security system. Melatonin effects are not immediate, but rather take hours to days to materialize. In addition, daylight almost instantly suppresses
melatonin production to near zero, returning the system to baseline before any internal disruptions occur. However, consider what might happen if stress easily triggered the pineal to produce DMT, rather than melatonin. DMT is physically immobilizing and produces a flood of unexpected and overwhelming visual and emotional imagery. Certainly, frequent bursts of DMT release would be much more dangerous for an animal than would be those of melatonin. It may be that melatonin is so hard to make during the day because any breach in the pineal security system is intolerable. The pineal erects a barrier to inordinate stress that protects equally everything behind it. So, one set of circumstances in which pineal DMT may form is when stress-induced catecholamine output is just too great for the pineal shield to withstand.

There is a similar discussion on the thread Panic Attacks and +4 Experiences?

My personal experience seems to agree with the hypothesis. Extreme panic precipitated my first ego-death experience (4 HBWR seeds + syrian rue) and it certainly felt like the experience was not caused by the psychedelic effects directly, but something internal and distinctly different. I forgot the mention that the experience happened shortly after smoking cannabis + tobacco. Beta-carbolines, tryptamines, adrenaline, the "primordial psychedelic soup" was certainly there...

 

[Ismene]

DMT is definitely made in the body and although pineal tissue has to the best of my knowledge been shown to synthesis DMT in vivo, DMT being produced by the pineal gland in the body is still a theory. The lungs are also a good candidate for DMT synthesis.

As for the reported Callaway research that describes measuring DMT in the spinal fluid of people having OBE's etc., it makes sense because DMT would be there under normal circumstances as well. Without a comparison of DMT levels with controls, no conclusions as to DMT's role can be ascertained. So far I've only found references to the research but not the research itself. Assuming it exists, it's probably in Finish, which would help explain its obscurity.

I believe much of the information in the second quote of the original post comes from a document called Eros and the Pineal, which is an interesting read.

In 1988 Callaway published a paper called "A proposed mechanism for the visions of dream sleep," (Medical Hypotheses 26:119-124.) which theorizes that visionary tryptamines are synthesized during dreams. If this is the case, it makes a lot of sense to look for compounds that can be synthesized from melatonin.

...

Does DMT really remind anyone of dreams or out of body experiences?

I've never had an out of body experience on DMT, you get out of body experiences on things like Ketamine. I've never been more IN the body than when I'm on DMT. And as much as I like dreaming, I've never thought dreams were much like a DMT trip.

 

[swilow]

Endogenous psychedelic tryptamines- neurotrasnmitter or metabolite?

Well, this is a question that is continuously being raised- what is the role of endogenous psychedelic tryptamines resent in mammals- I think we should focus on humans for now

Many speculate that DMT is present to allow a buffer against shock, or a component responsible for dreaming NDE's, alien abductions, mystical sensations of onesness etc. It has been theorised to be released by the pineal gland, though whther that is speculation or not is something we need to ascertain.

Or is DMT simply a weird metabolite of a biochemical process that we don't understand?

Basically, why are these things in our bodies? Is it connected, in some implicate way, to the fact they also appear in various plants and fungii?

Begin discussion of all things endogenous and psychedelic. Have at it!!!

(thus may begin a very lengthy thread of speculation and intuitive wisdom)

 

[Ptah]

Still on the comedown are you?

 

[e1evene1even]

Perhaps a mega-thread on this topic would be an idea? There are certainly enough stray threads on it, I know, I've started a few myself


-EDIT-
Wow, that was some quick mod action!

btw, there are a few relevant posts in this thread as well:

Are there any endogenous psychedelic phenethylamines?

Maybe it could be a B&D endogenous Psychedelics discussion thread? That way it could also discuss phens, beta-carbolines and the pharmacology of spontaneous mystical experience in general? In a few days when I get home I can type out some related stuff from my library...

 

[swilow]

Wow, that was some quick mod action!

By a mystery mod too

 

[e1evene1even]

thanks!!!!

I would've guessed Xorkoth, lol

 

[swilow]

"He comes in the shadows of the night...."

Anway, something I would love answered is why something as seemingly 'toxic' as bufotenine is inside my brain? DMT I can see why, or at least I'm happy enough that its there, but bufotenine- hmm.

So what endogenous beta-carbolines are their in man/mammals?