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The Argument For Suicide

Why not imagine it like this for the person suffering (and contemplating suicide). This is a purely fictional scenario to illustrate a point. The person is a captive, and their capturers are their relatives. The prison masters have either the option to let the prisoner die right away (because they're going to die anyway), or torture them before they die. And the masters decide that its their moral right to be able to torture the prisoner before the prisoner's death, because the torture provides them with joy, positive emotions.
 
rmikhail said:
See this is proof that you're the one who makes things personal. I never said I know what's best for you or that you shouldn't be able to kill yourself if you so desire. I don't really have any agenda or motive when I post here other than to verbalize and cross reference stuff that I've learned. Besides, I couldn't possibly impose my views on you even if I'm right. So don't take a break from what you believe, just take a break from wanting to be right all the time.
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Sorry not true. One of your posts had to be removed by a moderator for flaming me. Let's being honest here. You don't even know what a personalism is in regards to posting here. Google personalism and you'll see I've never made this personal and for the record your last sentence is once again making this personal. Please let's just discuss the subject from this point forward.
 
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belligerent drunk said:
Why not imagine it like this for the person suffering (and contemplating suicide). This is a purely fictional scenario to illustrate a point. The person is a captive, and their capturers are their relatives. The prison masters have either the option to let the prisoner die right away (because they're going to die anyway), or torture them before they die. And the masters decide that its their moral right to be able to torture the prisoner before the prisoner's death, because the torture provides them with joy, positive emotions.
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That's a harsh scenario but it's basically what often happens.
 
belligerent drunk said:
Why not imagine it like this for the person suffering (and contemplating suicide). This is a purely fictional scenario to illustrate a point. The person is a captive, and their capturers are their relatives. The prison masters have either the option to let the prisoner die right away (because they're going to die anyway), or torture them before they die. And the masters decide that its their moral right to be able to torture the prisoner before the prisoner's death, because the torture provides them with joy, positive emotions.
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Sounds like I'm both the prison master and the person being tortured. Might be time for stronger anti-depressants?
 
Life is harsh much of the time. When we are young, full of vitality, healthy, that is often not apparent and so we are callous towards the suffering that is really out there in the world and also very likely waiting for each one of us at some point either physically or emotionally and usually both. If one by some magic could get a personal tour of the incredible suffering that is happening at this very moment in the world many might rethink a lot of things about life. This is often what is referred to as the disillusionment of advanced age. Things fall apart and entropy/suffering often rules the so called "bitter" end.
 
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^I don't know if its so much being callous as much as being unaware. Children would be unable to grasp the level of actual suffering and tribulation that life is, it is so vast and improbable and senseless- the only thing I can say in its favour is that suffering and the forms is often novel and informative :\- so its spoonfed to them in ever increasing doses. I don't know if you can ever really be prepared though. The depths of shite that one can find themselves in continues to fill me with amaze. :\

Despite the suffering, there is something which can hopefully balance it. I feel like I am just telling myself that because for the life of me, I cannot say fucking what will balance this mess out but there are moments, long ones, of peacefulness and there is incredible beauty and mystery in the universe and on earth and interesting people, idea's- and its brevity is also something of a positive; in the scheme of eternity we are the a fraction of a twitch of a tick of a clock. In that sense the suffering is nothing and can be tolerated given the preceding and oncoming eternal darkness. :D You know, why not just live given the immensity of time in which you simply won't. This is nothing. So I tell myself.

Ah black thoughts.

edit: one thing that I have found freeing about contemplating the oftentimes shittiness of the world is that its made me aware that every single one of us, from the worst to the best, did not choose this. We are just here, with no guidance, nothing to tell us where to go, imperatives and drives that we cannot rationalise, no clue what is next. No wonder so much awful and bizarre things emerges from this. If suffering and discontent has benefited me it has made me almost painfully compassionate for anyone who feels anything like I do. At times I loathe humanity, myself included, but I also feel pity for us all and wish us the best, given the immense burden and pain of being human.
 
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Moderate suffering benefits one, severe suffering hurts all of which that experience it or know about it.

Maybe the benefit from it is compassion.
 
swilow said:
^

edit: one thing that I have found freeing about contemplating the oftentimes shittiness of the world is that its made me aware that every single one of us, from the worst to the best, did not choose this. We are just here, with no guidance, nothing to tell us where to go, imperatives and drives that we cannot rationalise, no clue what is next. No wonder so much awful and bizarre things emerges from this. If suffering and discontent has benefited me it has made me almost painfully compassionate for anyone who feels anything like I do. At times I loathe humanity, myself included, but I also feel pity for us all and wish us the best, given the immense burden and pain of being human.
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I agree about empathy. Too bad that wasn't one of our major emotional states. I also agree that in the end no one asked for this so we really can't ultimately be held accountable. More's the pity.
 
I have an argument against it:

whatever pain you feel now pales in comparison to the fire of hell.
 
Darkness and silence doesn't sound so bad. :)
 
treezy z said:
I have an argument against it:

whatever pain you feel now pales in comparison to the fire of hell.
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There is no evidence anyway but in some sick priesthood that suicide is something wrong. There is nothing in the Christian bible prohibiting suicide. That came from the fucked up priests in the same way your post is fucked up. Scare tactics is all that is. To coerce with fear. That's a sin imo.
 
Cosmic Trigger said:
There is nothing in the Christian bible prohibiting suicide. That came from the fucked up priests in the same way your post is fucked up
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Plus he's forgetting that Jesus effectively committed suicide by not doing one of many many things he could have done to avoid his crucifiction. In fact, the Bible and history is littered with Cleopatra's, Socrates's, Samson's suicides. There was once seen almost a sense of nobility around suicide.

Of course, there is the difference between a suicide from despair and suicide for 'honour'. But, as you said C_T, there is little in the Bible actively prohibiting it. However, you could argue quite reasonably that our secular society has inadvertently increased the rates of suicide; once you remove the great penalty from it (eternal suffering after a life of it!) there is less of a reason to not kill oneself.

I think someone else posted this earlier, but its worth a look. http://www.jennifermichaelhecht.com/stay/

I have been reading it on and off for a few months and have found it interesting and very relevant for me. My suicidal thoughts have decreased significantly of late- not saying its due to this book, but the book has helped to clarify some stuff. I'd be really interested in your thoughts on it Cosmic_T.

<3
 
^I have no idea, but you have overlooked 95% of my post. Stop cherrypicking or stop talking.

Seriously man, doesn't it suck to always approach people on this forum like a twat? You never write anything that is not sarcastic and incredulous like you cannot believe the stupidity of people here. I cannot figure out why you would want this. What can you possibly gain from being an minor asshole to most people?
 
But would you say that Jesus's death could be seen as suicide? Suicide from sorrow is only one reason for suicide.
 
I guess the point is more against treezy's argument, that people who commit suicide are condemned to hell according to Christianity. The religion was founded by a person who chose to die for whatever reason. Of course, it is only humans who decided suicide is wrong and has nothing to do with god. For Christians, suicide is considered a viable response to sin and not really a sin itself, or should be if Christians actually followed what their books says.
 
rmikhail said:
Well the gospels suggest he knew how everything would play out. So yeah you could call it suicide, but he didn't do it from sorrow or for honor. He wanted to show people that it's possible to overcome death.
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Could you explain more on the overcoming death?
 
Its interesting that someone needs to die to overcome death.
 
That idea has puzzled me for a while. I think there are many cases of metaphorical/egoic death that people have pulled through from - going on to live productive and healthy lives. I know of one. He took too much acid and wound up with a temporary case of amnesia. This man nowadays does his own plumbing, electric, heating, carpentry and other wood work. He's currently retired building chicken coops and finding a way to make a living at it.

In a sense, everything that was him before the LSD died and he was reborn, almost like an ignorant, stupid child, learning to converse and... do things... again. I asked him if he thinks that was all sort of a turning point. He seems to think so.
 
swilow said:
Plus he's forgetting that Jesus effectively committed suicide by not doing one of many many things he could have done to avoid his crucifiction. In fact, the Bible and history is littered with Cleopatra's, Socrates's, Samson's suicides. There was once seen almost a sense of nobility around suicide.

Of course, there is the difference between a suicide from despair and suicide for 'honour'. But, as you said C_T, there is little in the Bible actively prohibiting it. However, you could argue quite reasonably that our secular society has inadvertently increased the rates of suicide; once you remove the great penalty from it (eternal suffering after a life of it!) there is less of a reason to not kill oneself.

I think someone else posted this earlier, but its worth a look. http://www.jennifermichaelhecht.com/stay/

I have been reading it on and off for a few months and have found it interesting and very relevant for me. My suicidal thoughts have decreased significantly of late- not saying its due to this book, but the book has helped to clarify some stuff. I'd be really interested in your thoughts on it Cosmic_T.

<3
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Everybody seems to think suicide is a big deal. People have been doing it by the thousands as long as human culture has been around. Everyone dies, I could care less how it happens as long as it's as painless as possible. If suicide suits anyone then I say go for it. In the long run it's moot.
 
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