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The Argument For Suicide

Cosmic Trigger said:
I love the way you make definitive statements as if you could know what it's like for other people.This is the same crap that people try to dump on the suicidal all the time. Maybe you just don't have the guts to admit that life can suck so much that it's not worth it. That seems just as likely to me. Death scares you. How would I know for sure?

Again I'm going to say there is no way I or anyone else can really know what the life experience of another is like, what they have tried or not or even if they care to try. It's a personal life choice like all the others we demand as free humans. Yet for some reason this one is supposed to be off the table. Seems like fear to me.
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There is a deeper side to this. If you get to know most people on a private level, they'll admit to you they've felt suicidal sometime in their life. Almost everyone goes through it, even if it doesn't become pathological. People wish for death all the time. The subject is uncomfortable because it reminds them of a part of themselves that they'd rather not look at -- a part that might feel despair, hopelessness, or some other kind of existential angst about living. All of the codified morals against suicide have to do with not giving into that shadow aspect of oneself, to learn to do the inner work (if possible), and transform it.

The original Biblical concept of sin has to do with doing something that is against your true nature. Suicide is against everyone's true nature, because we're meant to live and meant to understand love and happiness. Suicide ends any chance of that. If a bunch of people in the room start talking about how life sucks, their suicidal feelings, and their feelings of deep shame, it could be cathartic, but it could also drag even the non-suicidal into it. People who resist those extreme negative headspaces have a different perceptual programming than those who easily go there when things are bad. We learn those habits from early life, and we can also unlearn them.

The circumstances of suicidality take on a different form with each person, but the essence is the same. If it was really just "life sucks, nothing we can do about it!", there would be non-attachment happening, and thus no reason to die over it. Suicide is a strong attachment, a resistance, an inability to cope or accept what is happening. It's the ultimate form of fighting that you can never win, unless you surrender. Until you give up whatever it is that's hurting you, you will just be in the losing battle. Doesn't matter what the reason behind it is. And I'm not saying that to imply that people aren't justified in killing themselves. I'm describing the core of what it really looks like.

I don't disapprove of it. I'm just saying, it is an issue of misalignment, perception, and resistance. In other words: it's mind. When people don't surrender, their own egos destroy them.
 
You don't know what it's like for other people in the same way I don't know what it's like for you. What is not obvious about that? Yes I reject the notion that someone knows better than I do what's best for me. So do you I'll bet. Why should I take a break from what I believe? Why don't you? I'm discussing a subject in a thread I didn't start and I should take a break because it makes you uncomfortable? I'll pass on that rmikhail.

BTW you can draw any conclusion you like. I've never said you shouldn't live it out and believe that suicide is unacceptable for you. I wouldn't have the nerve. If you love life and plan on using extreme measures in old age to preserve every single minute you can I'm backing you 100%. Enjoy.
 
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swilow said:
^That's totally true Nixiam. But, what do you think of the idea that the causing grief in the people left behind actually transgresses their freedom too? If I kill myself, I cause suffering to others which they will likely carry until they die; is that an ethical burden to inflict on somebody?

I believe that one of the most compassionate and altruistic things that a person can do is to allow another person, however loved and cherished, to pass away. That is an act of true love IMO. It is selfish to expect another person to live simply so that you will not grieve for their absence; I think that we have an aversion to suicide as we feel it devalues the life we continue to lead, but relegating a sick or tormented person to further suffering devalues the experience of life much, much more.



It's a nice thought, but what if suffering is just inherent, inevitable and meaningless? It seems to be present for most people regardless of their circumstances, and seems to be a lifelong affliction. I'm sceptical as to whether anyone truly learns anything they couldn't have learned in some other way, such as through introspection and application of reason and logic.

Struggling and overcoming adversity might give you strength or resilience but I don't know what is meant by 'good in the end'. The end, to my mind, is death and nothing that you've learned comes with you. Many schools of philosophy and spirituality imply that suffering is inevitable and somehow noble, as in Christianity which upholds ideals of persecution, atonement, punishment amongst other things. I feel like that may be a trick or wishful thinking, I can't see a huge benefit in much of the degradations I have experienced. So, I think the buddhist idea of non-attachment to suffering is more useful; it allows you to accept what you are experiencing and withhold value judgments if it and it lessens the intensity of suffering. For me, its more useful to be aware of the inevitable, and therefore almost impersonal, nature of suffering than to try and determine the lesson it is teaching or the way it will benefit me. On a purely subjective level, if I try and turn pain into something to learn from, I often end up agitated and anxious and angry. But if I focus on the fact that my latest worry will pass (and be replaced) and that worrying will not help me. And what I learn is that suffering will continue regardless but the intensity of my experiencing of it will diminish. You don't need to wait either, it works instantly, sometimes much better than others. :\
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I don't encourage the decision, as I typically ride the boat that disagress with decisions that are detrimental to others, but I think it may be more unethical to not permit someone the freedom to control that aspect of their life.

I've lost friends to suicide, and while I don't approve of their decision, I have to accept it kinda.
 
Very few humans approve each other's decisions if they are not similar to theirs it seems.
 
Only because it was detrimental to me and their families.
 
Also the fact that you should be able to explain the position. This is probably the hardest philosophical problem possible. It's almost impossible.
 
Representing suicide as moral has two main candidate game changers as far as I can see.

On one hand you have the feelings of others

And on the other you question the right to end feelings for yourself

In which case I feel ethical suicide is largely situational.
 
THAT Suicide may often be consistent with interest and with our duty to ourselves, no one can question, who allows that age, {21} sickness, or misfortune, may render life a burthen, and make it worse even than annihilation. I believe that no man ever threw away life, while it was worth keeping. For such is our natural horror of death, that small motives will never be able to reconcile us to it; and though perhaps the situation of a man's health or fortune did not seem to require this remedy, we may at least be assured that any one who, without apparent reason, has had recourse to it, was curst with such an incurable depravity or gloominess of temper as must poison all enjoyment, and render him equally miserable as if he had been loaded with the most grievous misfortunes. -- If suicide be supposed a crime, 'tis only cowardice can impel us to it. If it be no crime, both prudence and courage should engage us to rid ourselves at once of existence, when it becomes a burthen. 'Tis the only way that we can then be useful to society, by setting an example, which if imitated, would preserve to every one his chance for happiness in life, {22} and would effectually free him from all danger of misery.5{23}


David Hume - Philosopher
 
Notice Hume's case was "Make (to be made) worse even than annihilation."

To that end Hume admittedly did a terrible job in exorcising this problem. For instance pretend you are the Subject judging Life itself and then ending it totally. All life, all material. Hume did not give any reason short of depravity or gloominess of temper.
 
Or illness. What more would you need? All you have to do is accept the premise that you have control of your own body and existence. Everything would follow from that IMO. Suicide then is a personal choice just like all the other choices we make. The only reason I see it as a question is that it makes others very uncomfortable.
 
What illness do you have that would constitute total annihilation? If you have the common cold I don't want you ending my life. :(
 
We are discussing suicide here not someone deciding another's right to life. That's a totally different discussion.
 
No that's not correct. You aren't killing anyone but yourself. You're just unable to hear their nonsense. Which is a good thing right?
 
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