Dissociatives The Antabuse for Dissociatives

[Chris Timothy]

Upfront clarification: this is not about the use of actual Antabuse/Disulfram on dissociatives. Alcohol detox blocking wouldn't work, for obvious reasons. And I'm not even talking about making dissociative users similarly ill. I'm just borrowing the name to highlight the thread's purpose in a self-explanatory fashion: is there any substance that would help fight abuse of dissociatives? Is there some sort of guardian angle imaginable?

In my crusade against tinnitus I happened to have stumbled upon something that turns out to operate on dissociatives as Naltrexone does on alcohol. As some of you might know, this opioid blocker takes away the joy of drinking for some reason. Well, it turns out that preloading with the herb "Angelica Archangelica" nullifies the trip! To be precise, there's no complete cancellation of effect, but a lack of lift-off, it leaves an utter absence of trippiness. Only effect left is some peripheral stimulation, which puts one in anticipation of mind expansion that just doesn't happen, and is in that sense unpleasant. It makes dosing feel pointless, just like drinking on Naltrexone is supposed to be. The herb throws a wrench somewhere in the NMDA-antagonism cascade.

I'm not entirely sure what this mechanism of action is. Possibly it's the various ion-channel-blocking effects I investigated it for. But for instance lidocaine still allows dissociation when combined, so surely it's not natrium channel blockage. Calcium channel blockage would make more sense: ketamine's action works via L-type calcium channels to synthesize BDNF. I'm specifying channel type, as clearly not all types of blockage work. For instance, phenibut combines fine with dissociatives, doesn't it? So I'm sure it's not the specific blocking of gabapentanoids that are pertinent.

If this L-type calcium channel hypothesis is correct, then logically drugs based on dipydropyridine (DHP) would also work. It would be interesting to know whether this is more effective than the herb or whether its chemicals work synergistically, but the trouble is is that DHP drugs are heart medication. So we might wanna stick to the readily available Angelica Archangelica, which doesn't mess with the heart at all in my experience.


Technicalities aside, how to utilize this knowledge? First the disclaimer: if you find yourself addicted to dissociatives, then this will not cure you. It will not magically reinstate your psychological faculty of choice, nor stabilize any wrecked mood. But, just as how Naltrexone is commonly used with alcoholics, it will help relapses. Once you've provided yourself with deeper stability, then Angelica will guard against its erosion. At first it will happen a couple times that you dose anyway even though the tea of the roots has been consumed. But you'll feel silly. And after enough trial and inevitable error the impossibility of getting high gets associated with the tea, ingrained on a carnal level. And the intrusive, compulsive thoughts about dosing will vanish.

Can't you just not drink the tea and then trip, you ask? Why yes. You are certainly able to plan to circumvent it. But you can't impulsively do so. If you have a habit of drinking the tea every morning, then you have effectively replaced one habit with another, which is much easier than constantly putting up mental resistence against one habit. Another cup in the evening is also a good idea, if evenings pose a risk. That way your entire waking hours are insured against, well, tripping hazard. Easiest is probably to have it with meals. Then it's not as much of a separate thing, but an extension of an already existing, daily ritual, and gets done without putting any thought into it whatsoever.

Wanna perform a rationally planned trip? Cool, then it starts with the conscious effort not to habitually suck root juice. Notice that difference: it starts with consciously breaking a habit instead of mindlessly indulging in one. Moreover, it gets easier to stick to a planned amount of doses: simply drink a cup after the last dose, turning off the BDNF tap at the ion channel level, and the cessation is irreversibly marked. The K demon is rendered powerless, it won't be able to change your mind sitting on your shoulder bewhispering your ear thanks to this guardian archangel on the other side, the angel of the highest rank.

Angelica Archangelica is a European plant. I don't know how easy it is to import for you ammosexuals. It has US family too, but I don't know whether every Angelica species shares the relevant mechanism. So lots of opportunity for experiment, research and feedback in the form of your experiences, if in any way intrigued. Do feel free to use this thread.

 

[LucidSDreamr]

Upfront clarification: this is not about the use of actual Antabuse/Disulfram on dissociatives. Alcohol detox blocking wouldn't work, for obvious reasons. And I'm not even talking about making dissociative users similarly ill. I'm just borrowing the name to highlight the thread's purpose in a self-explanatory fashion: is there any substance that would help fight abuse of dissociatives? Is there some sort of guardian angle imaginable?

In my crusade against tinnitus I happened to have stumbled upon something that turns out to operate on dissociatives as Naltrexone does on alcohol. As some of you might know, this opioid blocker takes away the joy of drinking for some reason. Well, it turns out that preloading with the herb "Angelica Archangelica" nullifies the trip! To be precise, there's no complete cancellation of effect, but a lack of lift-off, it leaves an utter absence of trippiness. Only effect left is some peripheral stimulation, which puts one in anticipation of mind expansion that just doesn't happen, and is in that sense unpleasant. It makes dosing feel pointless, just like drinking on Naltrexone is supposed to be. The herb throws a wrench somewhere in the NMDA-antagonism cascade.

I'm not entirely sure what this mechanism of action is. Possibly it's the various ion-channel-blocking effects I investigated it for. But for instance lidocaine still allows dissociation when combined, so surely it's not natrium channel blockage. Calcium channel blockage would make more sense: ketamine's action works via L-type calcium channels to synthesize BDNF. I'm specifying channel type, as clearly not all types of blockage work. For instance, phenibut combines fine with dissociatives, doesn't it? So I'm sure it's not the specific blocking of gabapentanoids that are pertinent.

If this L-type calcium channel hypothesis is correct, then logically drugs based on dipydropyridine (DHP) would also work. It would be interesting to know whether this is more effective than the herb or whether its chemicals work synergistically, but the trouble is is that DHP drugs are heart medication. So we might wanna stick to the readily available Angelica Archangelica, which doesn't mess with the heart at all in my experience.


Technicalities aside, how to utilize this knowledge? First the disclaimer: if you find yourself addicted to dissociatives, then this will not cure you. It will not magically reinstate your psychological faculty of choice, nor stabilize any wrecked mood. But, just as how Naltrexone is commonly used with alcoholics, it will help relapses. Once you've provided yourself with deeper stability, then Angelica will guard against its erosion. At first it will happen a couple times that you dose anyway even though the tea of the roots has been consumed. But you'll feel silly. And after enough trial and inevitable error the impossibility of getting high gets associated with the tea, ingrained on a carnal level. And the intrusive, compulsive thoughts about dosing will vanish.

Can't you just not drink the tea and then trip, you ask? Why yes. You are certainly able to plan to circumvent it. But you can't impulsively do so. If you have a habit of drinking the tea every morning, then you have effectively replaced one habit with another, which is much easier than constantly putting up mental resistence against one habit. Another cup in the evening is also a good idea, if evenings pose a risk. That way your entire waking hours are insured against, well, tripping hazard. Easiest is probably to have it with meals. Then it's not as much of a separate thing, but an extension of an already existing, daily ritual, and gets done without putting any thought into it whatsoever.

Wanna perform a rationally planned trip? Cool, then it starts with the conscious effort not to habitually suck root juice. Notice that difference: it starts with consciously breaking a habit instead of mindlessly indulging in one. Moreover, it gets easier to stick to a planned amount of doses: simply drink a cup after the last dose, turning off the BDNF tap at the ion channel level, and the cessation is irreversibly marked. The K demon is rendered powerless, it won't be able to change your mind sitting on your shoulder bewhispering your ear thanks to this guardian archangel on the other side, the angel of the highest rank.

Angelica Archangelica is a European plant. I don't know how easy it is to import for you ammosexuals. It has US family too, but I don't know whether every Angelica species shares the relevant mechanism. So lots of opportunity for experiment, research and feedback in the form of your experiences, if in any way intrigued. Do feel free to use this thread.

All I see here are the manic ramblings of a dissociative addict with an elementary understanding of pharmacology and no sources to to underpin the hypothesis.

Im remimded of the delusions of granduer and all my seemingly brilliant ideas/inventions that turned out to be trash when I got out of dissociative use.

 

[Chris Timothy]

Manic while sober? That would be a first. I wish, really.

I remember you now. You've gone childishly ad hominem on me before over a technical disagreement. At some point that needs to be called out as trolling behaviour, you know, so please try and behave like the gentleman and scholar you apparently want to be with your reference spam, which, unlike you, I won't insult the intelligence and google skills of the reader with. If there is a mistake in the OP you can address it just fine, and then we might proceed to share our sources to settle the confusion but till that happens no such preemptively defensive posturing needs to clutter up the readability. Even though not identical to the etiquette of scientific journals, with which you seem to be confusing bluelight, it's a perfectly functional system too. Even more so. Because it's advantageous operating in an atmosphere of cooperation instead of the competitive environment where hostile hardheads are bred, where frantic conceptualization and myopia is selected for at the price of actual, intelligent insight. Because if you've never seen plain nonsense hiding behind a reference pile before you're either young and rather new in your field, or you haven't been very perceptive. Or you have been on some level.. but it's rather uncomfortable seeing flaws in a methodology one's paycheck depends on, isn't it?

Until you shape up your attitude that's all I have to say to you. Good day.

 

[SuperPsych]

I wouldn't really say it'd work like Antabuse or Naltrexone, but Nootropics that work on glutamate like noopept and aniracetam can be used to aborth the effects of dissociatives and level out the experience. If you take those nootropics every day then taking a dissociative on top wont provide much of a recreational effect.

NAC had a similar effect for me, and NAC is know to help with OCD and addiction. I took a dissociative one day having forgot I took some NAC the day before, and the dissociative had basically no effect.

 

[cdin]

nootropics have this effect as well. basically anything that can facilitate glutamate transmission will substantial weaken / speed recovery when it comes to NMDA antagonists.

 

[Vastness]

Hah. I am totally going to try out this tea you have suggested, so thank you for that. Although that said, I do unfortunately see the "manic ramblings of a dissociative addict" that @LucidSDreamr pointed out.

Not saying it means everything you've said is somehow invalid or wrong of course - or even that you are that person, or that your manner of expression is manic, or rambling. Just that I can see how it would be interpreted that way.

I'll say, it's kinda hard for me to discern how this particular herb is any different to any other dissociative "antidote", to put it bluntly and clumsily, of which there are many. I recently discovered that actually, doing lines of K having just taken a disso-killing dose of piracetam did not actually do nothing, as I once presumed - it definitely did something enjoyable. Probably what that was though (for me) was just to satisfy the heavily long term ketamine addicted pathways of my brain. But then, those pathways have an a priori, subjective component so... ah, honestly my current problem is that I've been snorting ketamine frequently enough that now I have to space lines to ensure I don't immediately sneeze them out. It feels fucking grimy, I'll say, but, somehow the lesser of multiple evils. I think my left nostril might be ready in a minute or so.

 

[Chris Timothy]

Of course it works invalidating calling someone an addict. It implies irrationality in behaviour, and thought. Rambling is when people go off incoherently into all directions. I introduce free association into a coherent whole, that's a big difference which I'm disappointed you don't see @Vastness. And it's disappointing that you, in the role of crew no less, would help derail from what is obviously meant as a gift to the community. It's sad to see expressed enthusiasm mistaken for mental issues, one would think a fellow psychonaut would know better, or if not, at least care.

NAC surprises me. I've actually combined it with dissociatives before for its antioxidant effect. Very weird that it works for you @SuperPsych. I mean, I know its mechanism conflicts, but it's just so weak. I suppose you're talking high doses?

Very interesting about the nootropics. I wonder about how their blocking effects exactly compare to the herb's, and especially how a stack would perform!

But that's for someone else to find out, because apparently my addiction is malfunctioning..

 

[Vastness]

I very much do appreciate that words like "addict" can be highly problematic in certain contexts, language influences thought and language has been weaponised when it comes to discussion of any kind of illicit substance use, to the point that even those who should know better can forget themselves. If I've done that, I do apologise. I am prefacing my apology with an "if" not in a cynical attempt to avoid taking responsibility for my choice of words, but just because I'm a little undecided whether or not - in this context - my reference to indirectly labelling you an addict was, in fact, problematic.

If we strip away all the bullshit that has been tacked on to the word by the language of prohibitionism where "addict" is almost a slur, used to discredit the target, unfortunate individual who has been assigned that label - then there is really no need to assume any kind of malicious subtext. When I speak of addiction, or use the word addict, to the best of my ability I am using it in it's most literal sense - with no preconceptions or implications or unspoken "invalidations" of anything or anyone. Addict just means, someone who is addicted, to some degree or other, to something. And this, in itself, is not a big deal - we're all addicts of some kind, and I don't mean that in a cynical, we Bluelighters are all addicts kind of way either - I just mean, we humans, are all addicted to something - to some degree or other. That in itself, is just a neutral aspect of our reality, and when I allude to the possibility of someone being addicted to anything - that allusion is the only thing I'm saying. We cannot let words with legitimate, useful meanings become something to avoid or we are handing a victory to prohibitionism in the battle of ideologies.

If I want to say that I thought you were irrational - I would have said it. If I thought you were rambling - I'd tell you. I would argue, in fact, that your apparently ingrained belief that addict "implies irrationality and behaviour in thought" is itself a harmful and incorrect lie that originated from prohibitionist propoganda. Frankly - it doesn't, and the idea that it does (if I were the easily offended sort) could easily be said to be more offensive than the simple use of the term. It might do, sure - but not necessarily. I myself am addicted to ketamine right now, there's really no way I can get away from that fact. I do not personally believe that means I am entirely irrational in my behaviours, thoughts, although I definitely am somewhat irrational, with a strong bias towards irrationality when it comes to topics closely associated with my own substance addiction. It doesn't mean that I can't possibly have a rational thought about this increasingly complex metacognitive self-analysis. It doesn't mean I can't have a rational thought about anything. I'm pretty sure I am rambling now, in fact, although hopefully I am still making sense.

I thought, honestly, that what I quoted was just pretty funny. I don't believe it was intended maliciously either although our friend @LucidSDreamr may have come across less patiently than I've tried to. Again - it was just a statement of fact about his interpretation of reality. I thought it was funny because I've been there myself several times, and I appreciated the blunt delivery. I did not personally express any judgement either way as to the rationality of your ideas. I actually think I summarised the position that I've now tried to elucidate as clearly as possible so there can be, hopefully, far less possibility of misunderstanding, when I said that I was...

Not saying it means everything you've said is somehow invalid or wrong of course - or even that you are that person [an addict], or that your manner of expression is manic, or rambling. Just that I can see how it would be interpreted that way.

I mean... I'm not sure if I can explain myself any more clearly, honestly. But I thank you for your post, as I say I will have to try out that herb, and I really meant nothing unkind or dismissive by my simply referring to the word "addict" or any other words. When I make fun of these kind of statements I am really thinking about my own past behaviours, more often that not, moreso than anyone else, of course I don't really know any of you well enough to make absolute statements about your character - nor would I have any interest in it, even if I did.

I haven't been around for a while so I don't know what's going on in your life and I could be way off, but I will say bluntly it's been my perception in the past that maybe you have a teensy dissociative addiction. To me that is a neutral observation, and means nothing else, I don't judge or think less of you for it, and I will take anything you or any other member of this forum says at face value (I mean... within reason... everything is a sliding scale really). I would kindly advise that you would benefit (IMHO) from thinking about why the word addiction means what it does to you, and trying to treat it just like any other word, a convenient descriptor of a loosely defined aspect of human cognition - not an insult.

 

[SuperPsych]

Of course it works invalidating calling someone an addict. It implies irrationality in behaviour, and thought. Rambling is when people go off incoherently into all directions. I introduce free association into a coherent whole, that's a big difference which I'm disappointed you don't see @Vastness. And it's disappointing that you, in the role of crew no less, would help derail from what is obviously meant as a gift to the community. It's sad to see expressed enthusiasm mistaken for mental issues, one would think a fellow psychonaut would know better, or if not, at least care.

NAC surprises me. I've actually combined it with dissociatives before for its antioxidant effect. Very weird that it works for you @SuperPsych. I mean, I know its mechanism conflicts, but it's just so weak. I suppose you're talking high doses?

Very interesting about the nootropics. I wonder about how their blocking effects exactly compare to the herb's, and especially how a stack would perform!

But that's for someone else to find out, because apparently my addiction is malfunctioning..

You'd be surpised about the NAC. I sure as hell was. The NAC dose that I took was around 400mg, and I dosed the dissociative a day or 2 afterwards. It actually took about a week before the dissociative had any effect at all. I was extremely surprised. I hadn't been on the NAC for a long time. I maybe took it 1 or 2 days at a low dose. I do have a perma-dissociative tolerance, but I can still feel the effects of low doses. I was also using 3-MeO-PCP which I am very familiar with. I got almost no effect from a dose of about 15mg, which is definitely active for someone with my tolerance.

 

[Ketamania]

Just get on a daily regime of antipsychotics.

Nothing will ever feel fun or exciting ever again!

 

[Xorkoth]

I don't see the necessity of throwing out this post and insulting CT for sharing. Drugs that work on the glutamate system, or that agonize NMDA, will reduce or even nullify the effects of dissociatives, like some nootropics, for example (noopept in particular will pull you out of a dissociative state pretty well). Perhaps the herb mentioned has effects in one of those areas? It's worth checking out.

 

[ecstacylover]

I don't remember the exact timing and dosage, but NAC partially blocked the effects of both MXiPr and MXE for me. It makes the high much more clear-headed and seemingly less profound.

This is most likely a consequence of its "pseudo"-mGluR2 agonist activity, which is the same reason it may block the effects of psychedelics, as seen in this study. The antioxidant effects may play a role as well, since NMDARs are redox sensitive (i.e. oxidation-reduction reactions on certain parts of the receptor can alter its functional state).

NAC on its own always seemed somewhat cognitively impairing for me. Possibly a consequence of the altered glutamate signaling, but memory formation also requires altering the expression levels of various genes in the hippocampus. To accomplish this, these genes (particularly the ones which are upregulated) must undergo significant demethylation and this demethylation reaction requires an oxidizing agent to proceed. In other words, too much antioxidant activity isn't always a good thing.

 

[Chris Timothy]

I don't see the necessity of throwing out this post and insulting CT for sharing. Drugs that work on the glutamate system, or that agonize NMDA, will reduce or even nullify the effects of dissociatives, like some nootropics, for example (noopept in particular will pull you out of a dissociative state pretty well). Perhaps the herb mentioned has effects in one of those areas? It's worth checking out.

I doublechecked the mechanism proposed in the OP, and my memory turns out to have been serving me well. From the Textbook of Natural Medicine:

Dihydropyranocoumarins and dihy-
drofuranocoumarins from Umbelliferous plants have been shown
to possess significant coronary vasodilatory, spasmolytic, and
cyclic adenosine monophosphate phosphodiesterase inhibitory
properties. The mechanism of action appears to be a result of
calcium-channel antagonism.

I've found nothing about glutamate.. not that I wouldn't have noticed such effect. In fact there's even study been done on the herb's preventive effect on glutamate toxicity. But so a stack is much more interesting than just more of the same of what typical nootropics already do.

Note also that they're talking about all Angelica plants, so that should solve the availability issue.

@Vastness
Thanks for being kind and thoughtful. But even if you redefine addiction beyond its psychologically set scope, whether it applies to whomever continues to be irrelevant to the thread at hand. If you want to continue discussing dissociative addiction, please make it a topic of its own thread, and I'll voice my opinions there.

 

[not worth knowing]

Noopept completely blocked both ketamine and MXE in my experience.

 

[Chris Timothy]

I don't remember the exact timing and dosage, but NAC partially blocked the effects of both MXiPr and MXE for me. It makes the high much more clear-headed and seemingly less profound.

This is most likely a consequence of its "pseudo"-mGluR2 agonist activity, which is the same reason it may block the effects of psychedelics, as seen in this study. The antioxidant effects may play a role as well, since NMDARs are redox sensitive (i.e. oxidation-reduction reactions on certain parts of the receptor can alter its functional state).

NAC on its own always seemed somewhat cognitively impairing for me. Possibly a consequence of the altered glutamate signaling, but memory formation also requires altering the expression levels of various genes in the hippocampus. To accomplish this, these genes (particularly the ones which are upregulated) must undergo significant demethylation and this demethylation reaction requires an oxidizing agent to proceed. In other words, too much antioxidant activity isn't always a good thing.

I agree the high gets more clearheaded, but I recall no lack of profundity. Since in the study you linked the interaction between glutamate and serotonin activity is proposed as relevant, you might just mean it made MXE and MXiPr feel less serotonergic? Such lack I would describe as lack of warmth, personally, and indeed wouldn't particularly miss its absence from a dissociative experience. But I can see this differing for a lover of ecstacy, heh.

I agree antioxidation isn't an absolute good. Like, I've read vitamin E actually increases mortality in the elderly, due to diminished hormesis around oxidation. Still, I do prefer throwing green tea extract and NAC at dissociatives. Even if they partially conflict, I'd gladly use a little bit more material if I can stave off confusion and amnesia. Because surely too much oxidation and the resulting inflammation is what typically messes up memory formation when tripping, not too little, right?

I do suppose a glutamatergic antioxidant still wouldn't be ideal. But even that's not completely clear if like you say NAC's own net effect is cognitively impairing, which is surprising for a glutamate agonist. Maybe it's because NAC might also agonize ion channels, including the Ca2+ channel, which besides would potentiate dissociation in exactly the same way Angelica doesn't.

In any case there seems to be plenty room for discussion left.

Noopept completely blocked both ketamine and MXE in my experience.

If it's effective enough on its own as to not require any enrichment of mechanism, then indeed the purpose of Angelica is largely voided. Though herbs are generally cheaper than pharms, if trip blockage is the sole purpose then it still might have a function, especially for longer term relapse prevention. Plus it comes with some of those typically herbal health benefits.

 

[ecstacylover]

I agree the high gets more clearheaded, but I recall no lack of profundity. Since in the study you linked the interaction between glutamate and serotonin activity is proposed as relevant, you might just mean it made MXE and MXiPr feel less serotonergic? Such lack I would describe as lack of warmth, personally, and indeed wouldn't particularly miss its absence from a dissociative experience.

It's been 2-3 years since I tried these combinations so I don't remember much more. Although by then dissociatives weren't that profound to me anymore, so perhaps most people wouldn't see any difference in that regard. The paper I linked is relevant in deep cortex while any serotonin release produced by dissociatives is more so relevant in superficial cortex imo, I was just pointing out that the same receptor can inhibit the effects of both dissociatives and psychedelics.

Because surely too much oxidation and the resulting inflammation is what typically messes up memory formation when tripping, not too little, right?

NMDA receptor is probably the single most important molecular correlate of memory, so blocking its activity will in and of itself interfere with memory. There's of course other things which probably contribute (altered redox balance, excessive cortisol release, etc), but they will pale in significance.

 

[Chris Timothy]

You'd be surpised about the NAC. I sure as hell was. The NAC dose that I took was around 400mg, and I dosed the dissociative a day or 2 afterwards. It actually took about a week before the dissociative had any effect at all. I was extremely surprised. I hadn't been on the NAC for a long time. I maybe took it 1 or 2 days at a low dose. I do have a perma-dissociative tolerance, but I can still feel the effects of low doses. I was also using 3-MeO-PCP which I am very familiar with. I got almost no effect from a dose of about 15mg, which is definitely active for someone with my tolerance.

Okay, I got myself the smallest batch of O-PCE I could find. I've had the dissociative invisible eyelid effect on breath control alone recently, I've got no lack of novelty in my inner life. But I wanted to investigate this NAC thing.

And yes, the NAC perfectly counteracts the O-PCE effects. My mistake before was - yes it's a theme - that I had used 3-HO-PCP as reference, the additional morphinish effects of which misguided me. I must have turned 3-HO-PCP into more of an actual opioid by stacking it with NAC, because yes, combining NAC and O-PCE feels quite alright with some peripheral flitter but utterly pointless. Any effect I've gotten out of it is attributable to ROA lag.

Perhaps we could phrase it as that the nootropics block and the herb undercuts?

 

[Chris Timothy]

It's still unclear though, because apparently this NAC thing has slipped below the radar of clinical practice as well.

Although we have not witnessed severe anxiety or agitation in our clinic, lorazepam or alprazolam for oral or IM administration is always available. Ondansetron 4–8 mg ODT or 2 mg liquid for IM injection is also available for patients who experience nausea despite fasting. Patients are advised to use acetaminophen or ibuprofen for any headaches that may occur after treatment. We also recommend that patients take 500 mg of n-acetyl cysteine (NAC) prior to arrival to support glutathione production.

Dixit Dr. Terrence S. Early from The Ketamine Papers. It's hard to believe such wrench in the works of the dissociation process would go unnoticed up until print concerning a situation where everything is carefully measured.

 

[Chris Timothy]

The dissociative antabuse system seems to be working for getting off the DMXE. For science I'm trying to dose over the Angelica/NAC block, and the only thing it does is releasing some craving, no mania, no crazy thoughts. Just (kinda) feels like a waste of powder.

It's not perfect, someone with more money to blow than me could probably increase dosage as to hop over the dissociative tolerance AND the antabuse block, but for budget me it seems to be working.

I've dosed 130mg DMXE in total today and mindspace feels caffeine-ish.

 

[tryptakid]

OP, thank you for this thread, I think it's really useful information and I appreciate you sticking with it despite some of the narrow-minded comments early on.

I wonder if any of these drugs can be used to help reduce perma-tolerance, as I've been a disso user for almost 25 years now, and still get benefit from them, but would love to find a way to start trimming the hedges a bit and getting my nmda system to be less desensitized to keta, MXE, DMXE etc.

I bring this up because with Naltrexone and it's impact on mu and kappa receptors, you can reduce tolerance to opioids through their activity. I wonder if NAC or Angelica could help with reduction of permatolerance if used during periods of abstinence?

I'd love to hear from others with insight into some of the deeper pharmacological activity that may be at play here.
Great thread!