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  • EADD Moderators: axe battler | Pissed_and_messed

The 3-FPM Discussion Thread V2. Fumes of Fiend Fuel

Sprout said:
In a similar vein: the Fluorophenylmorpholines do not, by all accounts so far, have a TI anything like Phenmetrazine did. The TI value of Phenmetrazine was one of the major reasons it was completely removed while Amphetamines remained on the market, even though they are demonstrably more toxic.
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TI value? Enlighten me Sprout...
 
Okay, as best as I can tell, the claim that MXE was developed for the grey market as a less toxic ketamine substitute comes from a vice interview that is now offline. There's a second hand summary of the interview here, but I have no idea if the original source had any sort of fact checking to make sure that the guy claiming to have invented MXE was actually the inventor of it. That's the best I can come up with.
 
F.U.B.A.R. said:
So basically the difference between a therapeutic dose and a toxic dose - the higher the value the smaller the safety margin?
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IIRC the larger the TI the safer the compound, as it's the multiplier between the EC50 and LD50 (although this is really getting outside my area now).
 
SquidInSunglasses said:
Okay, as best as I can tell, the claim that MXE was developed for the grey market as a less toxic ketamine substitute comes from a vice interview that is now offline. There's a second hand summary of the interview here, but I have no idea if the original source had any sort of fact checking to make sure that the guy claiming to have invented MXE was actually the inventor of it. That's the best I can come up with.
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The Vice article is still online. I just read it. One interesting thing in it is the guy also researched phenmetrazine analogues when he was at uni..perhaps he is behind the 3FPM's new found popularity
 
SquidInSunglasses said:
IIRC the larger the TI the safer the compound, as it's the multiplier between the EC50 and LD50 (although this is really getting outside my area now).
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Ah, so the opposite of what I inferred from Sprout's post. As a matter of interest, what are the TI values of Phenmetrazine, 3fpm and amphetamine sulphate?
 
Therapeutic Indices are the dose sufficient for activity in test subjects relative to the toxic/fatal dose. Phenmetrazine itself jumped from inactivity to toxic overdose pretty quickly.
 
consumer said:
The Vice article is still online. I just read it. One interesting thing in it is the guy also researched phenmetrazine analogues when he was at uni..perhaps he is behind the 3FPM's new found popularity
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Just a dead link on erowid then. That's interesting about phenmetrazine analogues, we've only had 3-FPM (ignoring all the isomerism stuff that goes on with the actual product) hit the market, right? Or have there been other phenmetrazines that have passed me by? It would be interesting and unsurprising if the actually novel stuff (as opposed to all the patent scrapings) come from a small number of people or even just one guy, before getting farmed out to the chinese chemical plants for mass production.
 
Sprout said:
Therapeutic Indices are the dose sufficient for activity in test subjects relative to the toxic/fatal dose. Phenmetrazine itself jumped from inactivity to toxic overdose pretty quickly.
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How is 'toxic overdose' defined? is it the LD50 as Squid said? But which is safer, a higher TI or a lower TI? Would like to see some actual relative values for the aforementioned compounds if any of you guys with access to such information could oblige?
 
F.U.B.A.R. said:
Ah, so the opposite of what I inferred from Sprout's post. As a matter of interest, what are the TI values of Phenmetrazine, 3fpm and amphetamine sulphate?
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Phenmetrazine has been fatal at 1.3mg/kg (~90mg for 70kg adult) and 25-75mg was typically prescribed so its TI was absurdly low. (0.35mg/kg-1.15mg/kg while 1.3mg/kg may kill you gives it quite a shonky safety level).
Amphetamine was much safer. 3-FPM has no recorded data to go off, however if we extended a similar TI as Phenmetrazine we'd be looking at 100mg doses killing people.
 
consumer said:
Interesting about MXE too. I never knew that but not being a fan of K i have not read much about it.
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MXE transformed my life, helped me give up stimulants, helped alleviate depression that I;ve had all my adult life. It also felt like the safest drug I'd ever taken, including prescription drugs.

Government banned it in typical reactionary fashion following a media furore, despite all the evidence pointing to it being extremely well tolerated and a statistically insignifigant amount of deaths being attributed to it.

3-MeO-PCP is a similar game changer for me, after decades of SSRIs and SNRI's doing fuckall for me finally I have found something that helps.

It is absolutely outrageous that the government think they can just illegalise these drugs and the problems caused by reckleess or uninformed users will just dissapear overnight.
 
Sprout said:
Phenmetrazine has been fatal at 1.3mg/kg (~90mg for 70kg adult) and 25-75mg was typically prescribed so its TI was absurdly low. (0.35mg/kg-1.15mg/kg while 1.3mg/kg may kill you gives it quite a shonky safety level.
Amphetamine was much safer. 3-FPM has no recorded data to go off, however if we extended a similar TI as Phenmetrazine we'd be looking at 100mg doses killing people.
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Well we all know that 100mg of 3fpm is far from fatal, even for novice users. Presumably these figures are extrapolated from non-primate studies?
 
Funnily enough, no, that ^^^ is the human tox. level!!!
PM was the best anorectic ever discovered and is yet to be beaten but the window between effective medication and suicide pill was absurdly low.
 
Sprout said:
Funnily enough, no, that ^^^ is the human tox. level!!!
PM was the best anorectic ever discovered and is yet to be beaten but the window between effective medication and suicide pill was absurdly low.
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Hmmm, interesting stuff, cheers all.


Edit: if these are the human toxicity levels, then unless people were dropping like flies from prescribed phenmetrazine, this surely can't be the basis for LD50 values which are normally extrapolated from non-primate studies where rats are dosed until they die. - Perhaps these people had a sensitivity or pre-existing condition?

Edit again: Sprout, perhaps you could move these posts over to the 3fpm thread? Stee's thread keeps getting seriously derailed (apologies Stee).
 
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Thank you Chris ( and nice to meet you!), and Sprout for all of your most kindest of comment!

I actually intended on sleeping Monday night, but nothing at al from 1mg F-lam failed to put me to sleep. The next day (Tuesday) I carried on vaping away, and took 1mg F-lam never fell to sleep. Only this morning at 5 did another 1mg f-lam nodded me off.

Yeah, you really don't need to go above any kind of level you aren't accustomed to, but I was doomed from the first time I had my first bag of 3-FPM. Normally I'd be cautious and take small amounts to test it, but something about it just made me insuflate the 1g bag that same night. Then haven't been able to stop buying it.
 
F.U.B.A.R. said:
Hmmm, interesting stuff, cheers all.


Edit: if these are the human toxicity levels, then unless people were dropping like flies from prescribed phenmetrazine, this surely can't be the basis for LD50 values which are normally extrapolated from non-primate studies where rats are dosed until they die. - Perhaps these people had a sensitivity or pre-existing condition?

Edit again: Sprout, perhaps you could move these posts over to the 3fpm thread? Stee's thread keeps getting seriously derailed (apologies Stee).
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I should probably point out that the 1.3mg/kg figure is the lowest recorded fatal dose, for the reasons you alluded to it's pretty difficult to attain LD50 values for humans.
Bleedin' grant donation bodies have a weird thing about studies with an ideal mortality rate of half the test subjects. 8(
 
Sprout said:
BCF's right fella'.
Take it from me, it bites you on the arse just as much as any other stim, it just does it in a rather insidious way.
It's unique in both effect profile and the after effects, IME the first few days without when you expect to feel shite are smooth sailing. It's about a week in that it hits, complete anhedonic lethargy with clear cognitive disturbance: short-term memory is just fucked, like majorly fucked, for a fortnight or so.
I don't really know how far its impact on my emotional state can be extended to others, on account of being legit fucking mental/BP1/Schizoaffective, but my moods were highly erratic and I couldn't read a newspaper without crying for a while.
Watch yourself, Sir Strife, EADD needs you! <3
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My typical 'comedown' consists of 2-3 days feeling strangely ok, if a little fatigued, followed by 2-3 days being irritable and slightly depressed, then back to base. Never noticed any memory or cognitive issues - though maybe i'm just too brain damaged from past amphetamine excess to notice :\
 
F.U.B.A.R. said:
My typical 'comedown' consists of 2-3 days feeling strangely ok, if a little fatigued, followed by 2-3 days being irritable and slightly depressed, then back to base. Never noticed any memory or cognitive issues - though maybe i'm just too brain damaged from past amphetamine excess to notice :\
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I think it depends on your typical usage pattern: weekend warrioring didn't feel too bad, certainly not like (M-)Amp does at similar levels. My experience above was from nigh on daily usage of 500mg+ for.... my memory is too fucked to be accurate, funnily enough, somewhere around 8 weeks.

Also given I'm clinically opposite to sane I feel it may hit me harder than others.
 
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