• N&PD Moderators: Skorpio | thegreenhand

That Wacky Modafinil

Well, norbupe doesn't penetrate the BBB as easily and isn't as potent. Were this metabolism occurring inside the brain, it'd be good, but as it's metabolized the liver, I'm not sure everyone will want this effect.

Additionally, buprenorphine is VERY poorly absorbed when swallowed because it's rapidly metabolized, iirc. Is it being converted to norbupe when used orally? If that's what's happening there, I definitely wouldn't suggest using modafinil while on Suboxone unless you wanna waste your dose. I haven't noticed feeling sick or anything, and I just take 2mg once daily.

However, I noticed that when my doc does his drug tests, they send back their report on how much of each of maybe 20 different drugs were found. They're all 0 of course, except buprenorphine and norbuprenorphine. I think on Monday I'll call them up and ask if the norbupe level has increased since I went on modafinil. I think I've only had two tests while taking armodafinil, though, so it may not be really useful, but if there's a huge change it should be apparent.
 
I just recently scheduled myself an appointment to get some Modafinil.

Anyways, does anyone notice a lift in mood? When's the latest one should take it? Any annoying side-effects? 100mgs or 200mgs?

I'm asking anyone who is taking it currently or has extensive experience with it. Feel free to mention anything else about it. I'm kind of excited to find something that might help me!
 
I just recently scheduled myself an appointment to get some Modafinil.

Anyways, does anyone notice a lift in mood? When's the latest one should take it? Any annoying side-effects? 100mgs or 200mgs?

I'm asking anyone who is taking it currently or has extensive experience with it. Feel free to mention anything else about it. I'm kind of excited to find something that might help me!

Check out Australian Drug Discussion's modafinil discussion thread, or ask in BDD where these queries would be appropriate.
 
I notice no mood lift. I take 150mg of R-modafinil per day, between 2:30 and 3pm, and have no problem sleeping by 1am. I could snort a line of amphetamine at midnight and sleep by two, though..

I don't have any side effects. Maybe slightly more headaches, and I have been losing my voice a lot lately, but I've had about three colds in the last month (terrible luck). I blame it on my kids.
 
I notice no mood lift. I take 150mg of R-modafinil per day, between 2:30 and 3pm, and have no problem sleeping by 1am. I could snort a line of amphetamine at midnight and sleep by two, though..

I don't have any side effects. Maybe slightly more headaches, and I have been losing my voice a lot lately, but I've had about three colds in the last month (terrible luck). I blame it on my kids.

Yeah, it seems that the mood brightening effects are a hit or miss, varying from person to person. Does it really last for 9+ hours?

Anyways thanks for the reply.
 
I notice no mood lift. I take 150mg of R-modafinil per day, between 2:30 and 3pm, and have no problem sleeping by 1am. I could snort a line of amphetamine at midnight and sleep by two, though..

I don't have any side effects. Maybe slightly more headaches, and I have been losing my voice a lot lately, but I've had about three colds in the last month (terrible luck). I blame it on my kids.

No explicit lift in mood here, but it definitely enables a switch to mania

Headaches, no; nausea, depends on some unknown

I'm noticing diminishing returns lately, and I'm worse at ignoring physical fatigue than before.

No compulsion to redose, no inhibition not to; sleep is fine when I do, but I am 28-hour so I can't reliably judge this.
 
Piracetam is not really vague, it is the original nootropic drug (not counting ancient tonics like Bacopa) but just not quite as potent as newer ones.

Read up here:
Nootropics thread V1
Nootropics thread V2

Personally I don't find that modafinil has that much potential as a nootropic, for me it is purely a wakefulness promotor. I seem to take it via an unusual RoA though apparently (intranasally), I am not sure how significant first-pass metabolism is with it.

Back to moda then...
 
After going through about 300g of this drug I have some comments:
1) There is strong cross tolerance with amphetamine or methylphenidate. 10mg PO of methylphenidate had no effect after using modafinil for two weeks straight and being totally methylphenidate naive for two months. 10mg normally turns me into a calculus crunching machine.
2) It's really good if you haven't slept, but it seems to make me aggressive, even a little more so than classical stimulants.
3) It also induces more panic attacks than AMP/methylphenidate, particularly at high doses.
4) A weird side effect I get is vertigo; I never get this on any other stimulants.

Yeah, it seems that the mood brightening effects are a hit or miss, varying from person to person. Does it really last for 9+ hours?

Anyways thanks for the reply.
Duration for me is 10-14 hours. Ideal dose 75-150mg.
 
Nuke, I have "ADD" in the sense that I have a hard time motivating myself to work at the level that I need to in my college classes. I never start large homework assignments until like 9pm the night before, which just doesn't work anymore at this point in my academics. I think I'd prefer stimulants over SSRIs or bupropion (which I've tried). Instead of perpetual NDRI activity, I want it to be working just while it's useful to me, not when I'm screwing around and not working.

In the past I took 40+mg of amphetamines every weekday, and that turned out disastrous. I basically unwillingly abused amphetamines because of imminent deadlines during the week, then crashed hard on the weekends. I had terrible work habits, and terrible sleeping habits as well due to amphetamines. I want to adopt healthier habits, in terms of both studying and sleeping.

I'm currently considering IR methylphenidate twice a day for studying, so that I'll get 3-4 hour study sessions, once before and once after daily classes. This is my plan because with amphetamines' half-life, unnecessary receptor downregulation occurs while not making effective use of the drug's very long duration. I'd rather try to keep a low tolerance and use the full duration of effects.

Do you think that modafinil, or methylphenidate, or a combination would be best for daily use in school? I have personally never noticed memory issues due to stimulants.
 
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I dunno about that, but the difference between Modafinil/Provigil and Nuvigil is an issue of racemic vs. enantiopure.

I dunno why crystalline structure would be relevant. It is true that modafinil can form a number of different crystal structures, but the powder (>90%) is milled down to under 200 microns. That's pretty itty bitty. The form used for Nuvigil is actually stated on the PI sheet to be the least soluble form. That's for the name brand. The problem with Modalert and the other generics cannot be the crystal forms they use, as the least soluble is already used by the brand...

Just my thinking.

1) There is strong cross tolerance with amphetamine or methylphenidate. 10mg PO of methylphenidate had no effect after using modafinil for two weeks straight and being totally methylphenidate naive for two months. 10mg normally turns me into a calculus crunching machine.
2) It's really good if you haven't slept, but it seems to make me aggressive, even a little more so than classical stimulants.
3) It also induces more panic attacks than AMP/methylphenidate, particularly at high doses.
4) A weird side effect I get is vertigo; I never get this on any other stimulants.

On point number 1, I don't know if I completely agree. There may be strong cross-tolerance with methylphenidate- I noticed that 20mg dexmethylphenidate was barely noticeable, and I'm pretty sensitive to stimulants. However, a day or two later a 40mg Vyvanse was noticeably strong. However, there was no euphoria. It was simply a useful, focused stimulation. 15mg Adderall XR was noticeable, but weak one day, the next day completely unnoticed. That's probably more a dosing thing, though.

2- Absolutely, that's definitely where it shines, and really, where it was meant to. I've been getting five to six hours of sleep this week, and it's been excellent at 150mg. I don't notice any aggression. I have about 20, 25 people I have to tell what to do and a lot of shit to keep in order on my job, so I need to constantly be assertive, but I've never crossed into aggressive, I don't think. There have been a few occasions lately where I've nearly screamed at someone (I was yelling pretty good) because they seriously fucked something up, but I don't think it was more than usual, or uncalled for. Two really serious fuck ups in 20 minutes, one while fixing the first- when I told him that he needed to move something or it'd get damaged, two minutes later he apparently forgot, and lo and behold, fucked it up good.

3- I have never experienced any panic attack while on the drug. I do notice that even at 150mg, if I have any caffeine early (before about 6 hours post-dose) I get really jittery and anxious feeling.

4- I've not had serious vertigo, but there have been times when I've been walking someone in a bit of a hurry and all of a sudden I'll notice that my head feels like it's spinning, and I've gotta close my eyes for a second and let it pass.



75 to 150mg? You mean for Armodafinil/Nuvigil, right? For modafinil that'd be real low, no? That's roughly 37.5-75mg of R-modafinil. Do you experience effects from that dose? I've always been at 150mg, I think maybe I took half of one my first dose, I don't recall.
 
I dunno about that, but the difference between Modafinil/Provigil and Nuvigil is an issue of racemic vs. enantiopure.

I dunno why crystalline structure would be relevant. It is true that modafinil can form a number of different crystal structures, but the powder (>90%) is milled down to under 200 microns. That's pretty itty bitty. The form used for Nuvigil is actually stated on the PI sheet to be the least soluble form. That's for the name brand. The problem with Modalert and the other generics cannot be the crystal forms they use, as the least soluble is already used by the brand...

Just my thinking.

.

Obviously provigil/modafinil vs Nuvigil is stereo differences but I'm saying the difference between the Cephalon brands vs the generic overseas- Modalert etc is definitely due to crystalline structure.

I can tell you crystalline structure and solubility is CRUCIAL for various drugs, hell look at an excerpt from wikipedia

"Solubility (metastable) also depends on the physical size of the crystal or droplet of solute (or, strictly speaking, on the specific or molar surface area of the solute). For quantification, see the equation in the article on solubility equilibrium. For highly defective crystals, solubility may increase with the increasing degree of disorder. Both of these effects occur because of the dependence of solubility constant on the Gibbs energy of the crystal. The last two effects, although often difficult to measure, are of practical importance.[citation needed] For example, they provide the driving force for precipitate aging (the crystal size spontaneously increasing with time)."

Now whether Cephalon intended on crystalline forms at first, they seem to have realized that this affects the solubility in that it increases it and the dissolution thereof, or decreases it. Via this decrease metabolic interactions may decrease as well due to it not dissolving as well in stomach acid/water. (Nuvigil is blatantly seen to be highly insoluble in water- while modalert will easily dissolve).

The least soluble for modalert is clearly not being used because that depends on the recrystallization solvent, if the least soluble was being used- the "ideal" modafinil would be out there- but modalert dissolves and nuvigil does not.

All because of my guess- Indian chem companies are saving money on the recrystallization solvent by not using the same that cephalon uses, they obviously must know this- it still produces modafinil but a version that is wayyy more soluble, is metabolized quicker(via dissolving easily), causes more enzymatic induction(via dissolving easily), and is probably a higher percent of the sulfone(produced when the reaction goes too long, or in too large batches).

Sunpharma's reaction methods may ever favor l-modafinil, or hell l-modafinil may actually dissolve more readily via purification, or in vivo in this crystal type, than R-modafinil will (either loss during purification or poor solubility in vivo because of its crystal form) and thus low activity. The inverse could be true if you think the more expensive(possibly in a patent somewhere) recrystallization solvent dissolves l-modafinil poorly, and R-modafinil wayyyy higher(thus cephalon may not ever use a stereoselective synthesis and eliminate L-modafinil via purification step) thus creating a more efficient crystalline form-that is poorly soluble and is a metabolic god.

I have the papers ill find the solvents used by both but this could be it, its big pharma, theres obviously something hiding.
 
www.intechopen.com/download/pdf/30914

2nd page

2. Impact of crystal habit on pharmaceutical processing
Drug discovery and characterization relies on the nature of the target molecule and the
relative physicochemical properties of drugs. Identifying all relevant crystal habit of a drug
which is an important variable in pharmaceutical manufacturing at the development phase
from research to commercialization is of substantial value. Due to the different crystal form
variations of some basic physical properties like, solubility, dissolution rate, melting
behavior, and certain micromeritic properties or performance characteristics, e.g. tablet
compressibility, mechanical strength, powder flow provide alternatives to select a form that
presents the suitable balance of critical properties for development into the drug product.
Establishing such modification information at an early stage of drug development process
lessens the risk of process alterations given form changes and brings in the opportunity to
attain more comprehensive rational property coverage.
The merit of changes in crystal surface form and habit of drug powders by recrystallization
method is much more realized when there is an essential to diminish variations in raw
material characteristics, to certify reproducibility of results during drug preformulation, and
also to judge fairly about the cause of poor performance of a dosage form. Besides, the
changes in crystal habit of a drug going together with or without polymorphic
transformation at some point in processing storage could account for serious implications of
physical stability in dosage forms. Thus, it seems underlying to have a deeper insight to the
crystal structures and control the solid-state chemistry of drug substances to design a more
systematic and intellectual pharmaceutical dosage forms.
In a survey carried out by Sinclair et al. ibipinabant a potent and highly selective
cannabinoid receptor antagonist was evaluated for its solid-state physical stability and
recrystallization kinetics in tablet dosage forms using fourier transform raman spectroscopy.
The findings of the study showed that exposure to moisture had notable influence on the
crystallinity of amorphous ibipinabant. The recrystallization kinetics measurements
revealed a two-step process with an induction period (nucleation) followed by rod-like
crystal growth by application of the Johnson–Mehl–Avrami kinetic model. On the whole
their method provided reliable and highly accurate predictive crystallinity assessments after
exposure to a variety of stability storage conditions for ibipinabant (Sinclair et al., 2011).
Recently, Dahlberg et al. analyzed the stability of the amorphous drug, flutamide, by a
combination of localized nuclear magnetic resonance (NMR) spectroscopic and NMR
imaging techniques. Owing to the fact that, NMR relaxation is sensitive to both the
crystalline and amorphous state and the size of the drug substance, it allows for an in situ
monitoring of the state of the drug during tablet disintegration and dissolution periods.
With regard to the results of the NMR experiments, recrystallization was believed to be
related to its enabling factors such as local hydration level and local mobility of the polymer
matrix. Eventually, it was verified that the primarily amorphous flutamide may recrystallize
either by nanoparticle coalescence or by ripening of crystalline particles (Dahlberg et al.,
2011).
The solid-state properties of sulfathiazole and chlorpropamide were modified through
recrystallization using supercritical antisolvent process by Yeo et al. They confirmed that the
operating conditions of the system such as carbon dioxide injection rate, type of solvent, and
temperature significantly had an effect on the physical characteristics of the resulting
crystals. Considering the results of the study, drug crystals processed with supercritical
system exhibited more ordered appearances with clean surfaces and sharp angles compared
with the unprocessed particles where crystal habit changed from tabular to acicular when
the carbon dioxide injection rate increased. Photomicrographs of sulfathiazole crystals with
methanol as a solvent, confirmed a needle-like acicular and a tabular crystal habits in rapid
and slow injections, respectively. Whereas, in the case of chlorpropamide, processed drug
particles in the rapid injection experiment exhibited columnar habit in a regular shape,
while relatively large crystals with sharp angles were observed in the slow injection mode
when acetone was used as the solvent. Overall experimental observations suggested that the
supercritical antisolvent process could provide favorable environment for the solid growth
of a single type of crystalline drug, minimizing the conditions for growth-related
imperfections (Yeo et al., 2003).
According to the fact that thermal analysis has been frequently used to identify crystal forms
of drugs and in the course of thermal analysis, crystal transformation is often observed as
well as melting and decomposition, Suzuki et al. studied mechanisms of thermal crystal
transformation through melting and recrystallization. They characterized two anhydrates
(��-from and ��-from) and two hydrates (hemihydrate and monohydrate) forms of a novel
fluoroquinolone antibiotic, sitafloxacin, in addition to sesquihydrate which is used in the
marketed drug products. The results of crystal structural that were characterized by infrared
spectroscopy, X-ray powder diffractometry and thermal analysis revealed quinolone rings
of sitafloxacin had distorted planar structure and quinolone ring of the drug in ��-form and
monohydrate hold opposite torsion to those in ��-form and sesquihydrate. These kinds of
thermal analysis are often recommended as a routine tool for quality control of thermal
dehydration and subsequent crystal conversion of drugs (Suzuki et al., 2010).
.....

NOTE: THE LAWSUIT vs TEVA incorporates discussion of the crystal type of nuvigil and the recrystallization solvent of choice- scroll to the bottom of the pdf

patentdocs.typepad.com/files/nuvigilorder.pdf

Teva agrees to cooperate in good faith to provide for use in the Litigation, or any action related thereto, reasonable discovery sufficient to show the following:
1.
The identity and properties ofall armodafinil solid forms prepared or studied by or for Teva, including, but not limited to, the polymorphic and solvate forms disclosed in any Cephalon or Teva U.S. or foreign patent or patent application, and the reasons why any research or development by or on behalf of Teva related thereto is or is not ongoing.
2.
The reasons underlying, and bases for, Teva's decision to use the Form I polymorph of armodafinil ("Form I") in its proposed generic armodafinil products under ANDA 200-152, including any analyses conducted by or for Teva relating to the stability or other properties of Form I or comparing Form I with other armodafinil solid forms.
3.
Any disadvantages ofthe armodafinil synthesis or crystallization procedures disclosed in U.S. Patent No. 4,927,855 known to Teva, and the bases therefor, including, but not
Case 1:09-cv-00918-GMS Document 119 Filed 05/11/11 Page 4 of 5 PageID #: 1106
limited to, the basis for Teva's statements in Patent Application Publication No. 2008/0031939 at ~~ 8, 10, 14,36, and alternative methods for making armodafinil developed by or for Teva and the reasons underlying, and bases for, Teva's development of the alternative methodes).
4. The identity and crystal structure measurement of all armodafinil polymorphs obtained by or for Teva when using ethanol (regardless of concentration or grade or purity) as a crystallization solvent.
2
Case 1:09-cv-00918-GMS Document 119 Filed 05/11/11 Page 5 of 5 PageID #: 1107


As you can see this is a stipulation that makes TEVA prove their methodology and their own studies that found the ideal usage of the crystal type, the recrystallization solvent-ethanol-
as a means to kind of halt them( ex fake data, their lead on this solvent/crystal type could be proved that it came from a cephalon leakage and not their own clinical data, if there is no data or trials of the other types them cephalon wins, but most likely TEVA has covered themselves.)

Now in comparison-MODALERT...
Looking at SUNPHARMA'S patent for modafinil and their derivatives..

http://www.sumobrain.com/patents/wi...lmethylsulfinyl-derivatives/WO2005046854.html

we can see on page 17 where it references its substituents, modafinil is shown as example 1 ( where r1=h) and on page 18...
"The above product is charged in acetone and heated to 50-55 C. DM water is added to the reaction mixture ...... The precipitated product is filtered and washed with acetone water mixture to furnish compound of formula 1 (wherein R1=H)..."(MODAFINIL)
There are 3 other methods but they also incorporate DI water and the last incorporating methanol, notably these are not recrystallization but complex purification technique(which affects crystal formation via solvent used)

So most likely we can conclude absolute ethanol recrystallization is skipped and this other purification technique is used for MODALERT, conflict could be completely evaded with the drug- but im sure the recrystallization/preparation of the new form of it via ethanol is a well kept patented secret. This could be how they evaded patent conflicts because of the final molecule's actually not being the same(size crystal structure).

Apologizes for the rambling block of text but hopefully someone else will attempt this, im actually going to recrystallize a small batch of the modalerts i have in absolute ethanol and report back.. goodluck
 
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Apologizes for the rambling block of text but hopefully someone else will attempt this, im actually going to recrystallize a small batch of the modalerts i have in absolute ethanol and report back.. goodluck

Very glad to hear that!

So I guess the obvious question, which I haven't seen asked, is if a decreased bioavailability due to ModAlert's production process can be offset by simply taking more. I don't see how this would possibly not work...
 
Very glad to hear that!

So I guess the obvious question, which I haven't seen asked, is if a decreased bioavailability due to ModAlert's production process can be offset by simply taking more. I don't see how this would possibly not work...

No due to this situation the crystal type can favor S isomer concentration over R
As well as reducing duration of action etc, I've taken consistnly more modafinil doses daily to chase an effect
 
I've considered switching from my low dose Adderall (prescribed at 10mgs once daily) to either Provigil or Nuvigil. The main reason why? My job does random drug screenings (which equates to roughly twice a year) for illegal drugs (SAMSHA-5). Adderall shows up obviously as AMP. The wonderful people at the drug testing agency wake me up 2 days after my test to ask if I have a legit reason I tested positive for AMP (even though they have each successive drug test on record). So I have to fax over my script and then they call to tell me that they report back to the organization I work that the results were negative. I'm worried one day they won't get the prescription fax and they'll tell my organization that I failed the test.

So I've been considering Provigil or Nuvigil as a replacement, but so far from what I've read up on it, I'm not convinced its a suitable replacement for my ADHD and that it could negatively affect my sleep.
 
The wonderful people at the drug testing agency wake me up 2 days after my test to ask if I have a legit reason I tested positive for AMP (even though they have each successive drug test on record). So I have to fax over my script and then they call to tell me that they report back to the organization I work that the results were negative. I'm worried one day they won't get the prescription fax and they'll tell my organization that I failed the test.

That's honestly a dumb reason to want to switch something that works for you. You can't get fired for having a script!
 
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