Bupe Suboxone/Buprenorphine Mega Thread and FAQ v17.0 + v18.0

[BlueHues]

^Where in the Bay area....I was visiting my best friend in Oakland 3 months ago or so...

 

[Tommyboy]

Hey guys. For a person with very low opiate tolerance (I use once a month, sometimes more, sometimes less) what would be an equivalent bupe dose to, let's say, something like 150 - 200 mg of tramadol or codeine. I thought about taking 0,25 mg of bupe. I don't want to get shitfaced and puke my guts out. Is this dose ok for a person with low tolerance or should I try less for the first time. I know bupe is very strong. Thanx in advance!

The chart I usually use is gone, but I remember that is says 0.25mg of suboxone = 10mg of morphine (oral). I'm not sure how that equates to codeine but one of the charts I just found on a quick google search said 130mg of codeine = 10mg of morphine which in turn equals 0.25mg suboxone.

 

[BlueHues]

^Id start with 1 mg and see where that takes ya...but maybe even less would work...

Like we've been saying, suboxone really needs to come in lower dosage units...Has anyone even seen temegesic?

 

[Tommyboy]

here's what kills me about some of the posts I read from you guys; you guys seem young, right? I am NOT OLD myself, only 31, but it seems most of you have only been in the game in the more recent years, no? tell me when I am wrong here.

I just saw someone say they started in 07; another who was only one a scripted type drug and had the script, etc. addiction is addiction, I get it, trust me. but the game is much different w/ each drug you run/play w/. when I fuck up and am a ragging addict again, then you can say you were right about BBT and you saw it a mile away. but till that day comes, realize I've been doing this since fucking 1998 w/ every drug you can thing of; I am PRETTY sure I have an idea; also, who here has gone 5 years sober (jail was there but still sober once out). who else has done that? OK, now shut the fuck up. you peeps talk too much w/ your head up your ass giving advice and opinions on shit you really dont know (the person you are speaking to). I respect all those in recovery/using, whatever, so wake the fuck up and STOP trying to be that pscy they hook you up w/ in jail/rehabs/whatever. you are NOT that.

I want to say I am PRETTY SURE I am well ahead of most of the players on this board; esp. a few from what I have read.

LSD - youre right. I slipped; then said, fuck it, let's REALLY slip. BOOM. DONE! 2 days later, I am fine and back on bupe and nothing wrong, no cravings, nothing.

lastly, Eve, I dont think you've been IN THE DRUG GAME long; or maybe not even in at at all. you may have bought from a certain someone, but thats not in the game. or did you say before you were scripted your meds? I love the erase numbers thing. I've done it many times but when youre known to be a certain type, which I am trying to change, people get in touch many ways. it's not always a phone call cuz the number has been erased.

I think that you are mistaking people's concern as attacking you or something. If you are going to get defensive every time people respond to your posts then what's the point of you even posting in here, unless you just want to hear yourself talk which is entirely possible.

For real though it's always the cocky ones that end up relapsing. Your saying how you are ahead of everyone else after banging 1.5 grams in a day just a few days back. You'll probably read that as me calling you cocky, but I'm just warning you about what I've seen from people that talk the way you are about your addiction. They are all fine, and don't have craving, and only had a slip up because after all there was a football game on and they just finished a project at work or something. Be careful with all those rationizations.

 

[PKPro]

Can we stop this? seriously... this is supposed to be an informative megathread and all I've seen is digression in topic for the past three pages, its utterly ridiculous and quite frankly its starting to really get childishly annoying.. can we stay on topic please???

Anyway I've come to the realization that bupe therapy has been taking a toll on my short fuse (its gotten even shorter, which i didn't think was a possibility) i don't know why this is happening since no other opiate/opioid has ever had this effect on me, actually every other PK i take has always done the opposite... it kinda sucks... I'm hoping that my Dr. prescribes that carisoprodol i brought up several pages back.. or at least something similar.. i need something to balance me out here, this is starting to get outta hand (my short fuse, and my late-night muscle spasms...)

*edit*
in no way am i taking sides, or pointing any fingers, please do not get offended by my initial statement (message to everyone) i just want this thread to go back to the way it was. Informative, helpful, and a good place to talk to my fellow bupe maintenance friends. Hope everyones doing well with their treatment!

 

[subuty78]

recovery/bupe maitnence

I've been in the dope game since 98 myself, l was in recovery for over 3 years b4 l relapsed in 2011, and I'm on subutex now. For me its not anything like sobriety, l'm not knocking anyone elses recovery except my own, the reason I'm on it is so l don't die from the hardcore shit l was accustom to doing, but it still gives me a high no matter which way l do it, under the tongue,snort,plug,slam it, l don't recomend any of the slamming btw! My point is bupe is still a mind and mood altering drug, but it beats the hell out of searching 24/7 for a fix, and it helps me live a half way normal life but it doesn't compare to the 3 years l had in recovery which l hope to get back too when I'm ready to detox, again not knocking anyone elses recovery program, just sharing my experience, thanks

 

[Mr.Scagnattie]

^^

Yeah once you get off bupe for good, you really see how different it is to be completely sober with nothing, and realize just how much the bupe was affecting you even if you didn't notice it at the time.

 

[Ziggy stardust]

I've been in the dope game since 98 myself, l was in recovery for over 3 years b4 l relapsed in 2011, and I'm on subutex now. For me its not anything like sobriety, l'm not knocking anyone elses recovery except my own, the reason I'm on it is so l don't die from the hardcore shit l was accustom to doing, but it still gives me a high no matter which way l do it, under the tongue,snort,plug,slam it, l don't recomend any of the slamming btw! My point is bupe is still a mind and mood altering drug, but it beats the hell out of searching 24/7 for a fix, and it helps me live a half way normal life but it doesn't compare to the 3 years l had in recovery which l hope to get back too when I'm ready to detox, again not knocking anyone elses recovery program, just sharing my experience, thanks

Great post 78,
I've got nine months under my belt and it hasn't been easy. I know how dangerous thoughts like "just this one time" are. I detoxed off sub four times in 2012 only to have the 30 days snatched away by those thoughts.. I'm wondering why after three yrs clean you caved? Was it a event, or just thinking you could do it once..or boredom, or peer pressure....
The farther I get from using the more I realized I wasted yrs being apathetic and passionless. The yrs I was stuck on maintenance where the most unproductive in my life...but I still think about useing. Kinda crazy! Being a addict sucks...

 

[PKPro]

Being a addict sucks...

Indeed it does, though bupe takes care of the physical need for anything, it sure as hell doesn't tame the temptation or thoughts of using 100%. which is unfortunate... i wish it was more agonist than antagonist than it is... just a little more agonist would definitely help with that issue i believe... but lives a bitch and if everything were easy i suppose it wouldn't be the adventure it is..

 

[Zwanya]

I completely agree with the argument that being on Buprenorphine means I am not 100% clean. However, I think the issue becomes a bit more complicated by the chronic pain piece.

Between 2008-2009 I was totally clean--I had not even heard of Subs at that point. Every day of that year I suffered from the chronic back pain that had lead me to opiate addiction in the first place. (The pain was one of many triggers for me throughout that year, of course.) I hoped that PT, yoga, acupuncture, etc would control that pain, so that I could figure out a way to live without the opiates that had ravaged my life in so many ways. No such luck.

When I got on Subutex in 2011, my back pain improved tremendously. My dose controlled my pain, without getting me high. That is something I could never achieve with typical agonists, because I simply couldn't control myself.

Recovery for me means all of the negative behaviors of my addiction have stopped. I am recovering what I lost in the process of becoming enveloped in those behaviors. Bupe plays a significant role in that for me, because as I restructure all aspects of my life, the chronic pain that helped fuel so much of my addiction is not at the forefront of my mind every day.

It is a tool, and this point in my recovery, it is still an important one.

 

[Eveleivibe]

The chart I usually use is gone, but I remember that is says 0.25mg of suboxone = 10mg of morphine (oral). I'm not sure how that equates to codeine but one of the charts I just found on a quick google search said 130mg of codeine = 10mg of morphine which in turn equals 0.25mg suboxone.

I agree that a person on bupe is not sober but I don't agree that they are not clean. Personally I don't like the word "clean" as it assumes that on maintenance/ active addictive addiction that a person is dirty. As my cravings are blocked I cannot, for instance, get praise for not touching my DOC. How could I have similar praise as someone who is sober but is fighting cravings all the time???? It would be wrong.

Tommy where did you get that info from pls? About codeine only being equivalent to a tiny bit of bupe? Was there a study that you looked at n if so what was the title pls ? When I finish my assignment on Monday (if I get motivation to finish it) I'm going to use my uni resources to research some opiate stuff around suboxone, PAWS etc in a lot more detail. I think it's important to do research on what we are putting in our body n once upon a time I was addicted to Google but I've lost motivation.

I won't go on as it'd be going off topic n we've had enough of that lol but yeah.... I'm interested in the equivalence of bupe to codeine because I've never took interest before. I kinda just listened to a friend who got on it after codeine n got fixated on it being the answer to everything lol. How did my doctor initially get 8 mg from 800 mg a day? Mind you I told him I wanted to go onto suboxone as it helped my friend overcome her addiction.

All interesting stuff (I never think of codeine anymore. Crazy thing was I was jealous of someone taking codeine when they were sick with physical pain. What sort of person does that make me?

Thanks. Evey

 

[bukweat]

Here again, we're all different. When I was on suboxone maintenance I thought of myself as clean AND sober.Now that I'm not on maintenance temptation is there to use, so what. That isn't any difference.

 

[Ziggy stardust]

I completely agree with the argument that being on Buprenorphine means I am not 100% clean. However, I think the issue becomes a bit more complicated by the chronic pain piece.

Between 2008-2009 I was totally clean--I had not even heard of Subs at that point. Every day of that year I suffered from the chronic back pain that had lead me to opiate addiction in the first place. (The pain was one of many triggers for me throughout that year, of course.) I hoped that PT, yoga, acupuncture, etc would control that pain, so that I could figure out a way to live without the opiates that had ravaged my life in so many ways. No such luck.

When I got on Subutex in 2011, my back pain improved tremendously. My dose controlled my pain, without getting me high. That is something I could never achieve with typical agonists, because I simply couldn't control myself.

Recovery for me means all of the negative behaviors of my addiction have stopped. I am recovering what I lost in the process of becoming enveloped in those behaviors. Bupe plays a significant role in that for me, because as I restructure all aspects of my life, the chronic pain that helped fuel so much of my addiction is not at the forefront of my mind every day.

It is a tool, and this point in my recovery, it is still an important one.

I've got pain issues too...DDD....but never found sub at all helpful, but I came from methadone. I never considered myself "clean" while on any opiate...sober maybe, but not clean.

 

[Captain.Heroin]

Bupe helped my pain - I don't know why but I wish I could get the basic pain relief some days.

44 days clean. Time is not at a stand still anymore and I am "balancing out" - I hope. I am still going through a lot of problems that are trying my will power.

 

[PKPro]

Eveleivibe: His calculations were correct, if you google equianalgesic opioid strength charts, you will find several links showing the strength of opioids relative to either morphine or codeine. Using the data i found online codeine's strength and comparisons are as follows:

Codeine : Morphine = 100mg : 10mg (Takes 100mg of codeine to make 10mg of morphine)
Codeine : Buprenorphine = 30mg : 0.075mg (Buprenorphine is 400x more potent than codeine)

Codeine is, after all, the lowest of the class of painkillers that can be considered narcotic (Tramadol* is tied with it on a 1:1 strength comparison), its the baseline narcotic painkiller, followed by hydrocodone and oxycodone

*Tramadol is an SNRI

Hope this helps!! =)

**Sources**
http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l275/as_fast_as_u/Image9.png (photo of wikipedias chart, which for some reason is no longer on wikipedia)
http://taimapedia.org/index.php?title=Opioid_comparison_chart

 

[LSDiesel]

Has anyone on about 2mg a day experimented with taking 1mg in the morning and 1mg in the afternoon?

I am currently on 2mg/day

Did anyone notice any difference in effect for them?

 

[RTrain]

^I always split my dose, gives me that little boost in the evening. I don't split my daily amount 1/2 & 1/2, I do it 2/3 in morning and 1/3 later on. Seems to work better and gives me something to look forward to, but if I continue to taper and get to small doses, like under 1 mg, then I'd probably just dose once in the morning.

I figure if you are use to taking 2 mg a day then it shouldn't make much of a difference when you take it, but depends on how long the dose holds you. Taking it in the morning makes most sense to get through the important part of day and be productive. I just find if I take it all early then I wake up before a full nights sleep and struggle to fall back to sleep b/c I am starting to get sick, so I take that little bit later on and it helps it last. It might take a few days to get use to changing the dosing schedule like that, but eventually you would just adapt to it, similar to when you drop the dose in a taper.

 

[Mr.Scagnattie]

Has anyone on about 2mg a day experimented with taking 1mg in the morning and 1mg in the afternoon?

I am currently on 2mg/day

Did anyone notice any difference in effect for them?

Yeah I used to do that. Taking an extra little bit at night always helped me chill out and sleep.

 

[Tommyboy]

Anyway I've come to the realization that bupe therapy has been taking a toll on my short fuse (its gotten even shorter, which i didn't think was a possibility) i don't know why this is happening since no other opiate/opioid has ever had this effect on me, actually every other PK i take has always done the opposite... it kinda sucks... I'm hoping that my Dr. prescribes that carisoprodol i brought up several pages back.. or at least something similar.. i need something to balance me out here, this is starting to get outta hand (my short fuse, and my late-night muscle spasms...)

I've become snappy when percocets were wearing off, but that was a little different than what you described with your short fuse on subs. Suboxone made my mind speed up it seemed, and so if I didn't find something to occupy my mind while on it (or if that something wasn't going my way) I would become very irritated and usually have to step outside to smoke some cigarettes to chill out some.

I've been in the dope game since 98 myself, l was in recovery for over 3 years b4 l relapsed in 2011, and I'm on subutex now. For me its not anything like sobriety, l'm not knocking anyone elses recovery except my own, the reason I'm on it is so l don't die from the hardcore shit l was accustom to doing, but it still gives me a high no matter which way l do it, under the tongue,snort,plug,slam it, l don't recomend any of the slamming btw! My point is bupe is still a mind and mood altering drug, but it beats the hell out of searching 24/7 for a fix, and it helps me live a half way normal life but it doesn't compare to the 3 years l had in recovery which l hope to get back too when I'm ready to detox, again not knocking anyone elses recovery program, just sharing my experience, thanks

It's all about making an educated decision based on if the good outweighs the bad.

I agree that a person on bupe is not sober but I don't agree that they are not clean. Personally I don't like the word "clean" as it assumes that on maintenance/ active addictive addiction that a person is dirty. As my cravings are blocked I cannot, for instance, get praise for not touching my DOC. How could I have similar praise as someone who is sober but is fighting cravings all the time???? It would be wrong.

Tommy where did you get that info from pls? About codeine only being equivalent to a tiny bit of bupe? Was there a study that you looked at n if so what was the title pls ? When I finish my assignment on Monday (if I get motivation to finish it) I'm going to use my uni resources to research some opiate stuff around suboxone, PAWS etc in a lot more detail. I think it's important to do research on what we are putting in our body n once upon a time I was addicted to Google but I've lost motivation.

I won't go on as it'd be going off topic n we've had enough of that lol but yeah.... I'm interested in the equivalence of bupe to codeine because I've never took interest before. I kinda just listened to a friend who got on it after codeine n got fixated on it being the answer to everything lol. How did my doctor initially get 8 mg from 800 mg a day? Mind you I told him I wanted to go onto suboxone as it helped my friend overcome her addiction.

All interesting stuff (I never think of codeine anymore. Crazy thing was I was jealous of someone taking codeine when they were sick with physical pain. What sort of person does that make me?

Thanks. Evey

We'll PKPro posted some links below, but mine was based on this chart.

0.25mg buprenorphine = 10mg = 100mg codeine

Therefore

1mg buprenorphine = 40mg morphine = 400mg codeine

Those values are given using the sublingual ROA for the bupe, and the oral ROA for the morphine and codeine, although there are also values given for the IV ROA for morphine for those that are interested in that.

Eveleivibe: His calculations were correct, if you google equianalgesic opioid strength charts, you will find several links showing the strength of opioids relative to either morphine or codeine. Using the data i found online codeine's strength and comparisons are as follows:

Codeine : Morphine = 100mg : 10mg (Takes 100mg of codeine to make 10mg of morphine)
Codeine : Buprenorphine = 30mg : 0.075mg (Buprenorphine is 400x more potent than codeine)

Codeine is, after all, the lowest of the class of painkillers that can be considered narcotic (Tramadol* is tied with it on a 1:1 strength comparison), its the baseline narcotic painkiller, followed by hydrocodone and oxycodone

*Tramadol is an SNRI

Hope this helps!! =)

**Sources**
http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l275/as_fast_as_u/Image9.png (photo of wikipedias chart, which for some reason is no longer on wikipedia)
http://taimapedia.org/index.php?title=Opioid_comparison_chart

Yea those are the same values that I got, just in different values using the same proportion. Yours is saying 0.75mg of buprenorphine = 300mg of codeine which is just 3x the values that are given for each drug on the chart I cited.

 

[LSDiesel]

Well said RT,
I never felt satisfied on sub..it made me feel wired and creepy. I.

Lol