Opioids Suboxone after Kratom - Precip withdrawals?

[pillill]

If you have a physical dependence for opioids I kinda doubt you could escape a PWD if dosing greater than 4mg of suboxone, or whatever dose needed to strip enough full agonist off. Even though it has such high affinity, if it doesn't strip the necessary amount of the full agonist off to produce a weaker overall response, an antagonist effect shouldn't happen. There would still be full agonists occupying mu-opioid receptors causing enough pharmacological effects to avoid the PWD. The PWD should manifest it's self once the amount of buprenorphine on the mu-opioid receptors is greater than the amount of full agonists that would be needed to produce a greater biological response than the buprenorphines partial agonisms biological response. Being a partial agonist, it doesn't automatically act as say naloxone, an actually antagonist. It still produces a biological response when activating the receptors. The issue is when the one has a dependence and is used to the level of biological response being greater than that of the bully buprenorphine's biological when it strips the appropriate proportion full agonist off, or saturates the receptors.

Atleast that is why I feel you may not have consumed enough bupe to cause a PWD, Or maybe I could see when you redosed you redosed far enough in the future where the body are started adjusting itself to the bupe having a large biological response as the kratoms effects wear off.

If I'm off on this anyone let me know.

What did you copy an paste that first para... why not speak english so the majority can understand. The point is no matter How much suboxone or subutex you take If you feel better In any kind of way You can take as much so after that And be ok. Period Yes there for escaping Precipitated withdrawal syndrome.

But again everyone is different on the time you have to wait for tex or sub... iv seen ppl who take suboxone 5hours later an be cool others have to wait as long as 30hours and that was for subutex.

 

[Zerwas]

Dude, the last post in this thread was over a year ago
Welcome to Bluelight though, you can edit your posts instead of multiple posting in a row.

To add something on topic: If someone is not physically dependent on Kratom Buprenorphine will probably not throw you in precipitated WDs.

I have switched between the two a lot in recent time (after being on a very low dose of Bupe, 0,5mg) and even after one week of Kratom use I could just take the Bupe ~ 12h after my last Kratom dose and I was fine.
Actually I got pretty high again because my tolerance went down. I have to add that I was dependent on the Bupe before though.

 

[Dankycodone]

it takes weeks for buprenorphine concentration to show a significant decline in blood plasma during maintenance.

a few days of any opiate agonist does not mean you are now dependent on that opiate. in fact, any withdrawal is likely going to be the buprenorphine withdrawal that was merely 'covered up' by the full agonist.

precipitated withdrawal is only going to occur when someone takes buprenorphine when they are totally physically dependent on an opioid that is not buprenorphine.

so no.

You got a source for this??? week's ??? yea it's a long acting drug but I am pretty sure after 5 days bupe's concentration will drop a significant amount.

edit- I just saw how old this thread was

 

[ArmouredKitten]

I'm posting this because this topic needs much much more data. So I'm doing my part.

A little bit of background: I started using Kratom after 2 years off of all opiates in January 2015. Started doing dope in April. Been using Kratom as a bridge between dope doses ever since really. So as of last night I had been using Kratom about 2 to 3 times daily (at >7g per dose) since basically Wednesday without having any dope, so there was no concern at all that I still had heroin in my system. The strain of Kratom I refer to here is Red Maeng Da.

Yesterday I took my 1st >7g dose at around 7am then a second dose at around noon. Later on in the evening at around 8PM I start getting chills and stuff, the early onset of w/d. Mild, but enough to make me ask around for any real opiates. After not much luck for a while I took another >7g dose, (I would say closer to 10g) and wouldn't you know it, a 12mg strip of Suboxone descended from on high.

I spent several hours pouring over literally every single thread that exists on the internet regarding Kratom and precipitated withdrawal. So much conflicting information, and a lot of horror stories about pre/wd in general. Now for the (debarably) useful anecdotal data of mine:

I decided that enough people had made a good argument for taking sub-mg doses at first to try and skirt around precipitated withdrawal that I would give it a try. The "science" of it made sense to my under-educated brain.
So I waited and waited until about 5 hours after my last dose (1:30AM ish), and tore of about a 0.5mg~0.75mg piece and stuck it under my tongue. I sat there for a minute before deciding to go out to smoke a cigarette. As I got out of the chair I noticed a slight change in...something. I couldn't say what exactly. I grabbed my cigarretes and I suddenly recognized that this shift I was experiencing was similar to the anticipation/come-up/first alerts of a psychedelic trip. It could have been mostly due in part to the fact that I was expecting at any moment for sweat to just start shooting out of my pores and to start shitting everywhere, but there was definitely a little bit that wasn't placebo. Still nothing I would call withdrawal though.

Then, as I was about halfway down the stairs it all culminated into about a 2-3 second sensation of sudden warmness all throughout my body. Like one big hot flash. It made me slightly dizzy, but not too seriously. My heart rate jumped because I thought "oh shit this is it", but once my heard calmed down again I noticed that the feeling was gone and nothing more was happening. As I smoked my cigarette I was waiting for more, but more never came. As soon as I went inside I started dosing gradually more and more and actually started to get some desirable effects from the bupe.

So, TL;DR? I took 3 doses of Kratom each over 7 grams throughout the day, and took <1mg Sub strip 5 hours my last Kratom dose and all I felt was a 2-3 second hot flash

My conclusion from this (and this is just wild speculation here), that perhaps because Kratom is so weak in potency compared to bupe, and is only a selective agonist to boot (not a full agonist), I think that when the bupe knocks off whatever kratom alkaloids are left after 5 hours, there isn't much competition and that 2-3 seconds of hot flash was possibly the time it took for the bupe to replace the mitragynine it had just knocked off?

I've been up all night, I know I could have done a much better job at typing this up but I wanted to get this up here for whoever else ever found themselves wondering.

 

[flx88]

Hey Everyone, Just registered to post my experience as the guinea pig.

I've been taking Maeng Da Kratom for 5 months straight, give you a quick background. Been addicted to IV roxys/dilaudid/heroin and IV Coke. I got clean off everything January 1st 2015. Stayed clean with no drugs or alcohol. Discovered Kratom and was hooked in May 2015. Got up to doing all different strands and as high as 15mg dosed 3 times daily for a total of 45mg intake. For the past month I have weined down to 5mg dosed 2 times daily for a total of 10mg intake. I have been wanting to quit but fear withdrawals. I've been thru cold turkey with IV opiates in the past and it was painful. I know this wont be as bad but still I am being a pussy. crazy thing is this same situation is happening with my dog and he has the same history as me. So my dog has 3-8mg strips of suboxone. He took his last dose of kratom at 5:30 Sunday Night. My dog waited till 9:40 Monday morning, total of 16 hours. Fearful of precip withdrawals but wants to help the rest of the internet. My dog took 2mg of suboxone orally. At about 10:00 my dog felt slightly nauseus. As of 11:11 my dog feels a slight euporic and has no precipitated withdrawals to report. My dog plans on doing 2mg this morning, 2mg at 4:00-5:00 after work. Then Tuesday at lunch time, then one last dose on Wednesday morning.

P.S: Not sure if the dog thing is needed or not. Seems kind of gay lol.

 

[ArmouredKitten]

Here we go again. Yet another guinea pig trial. For the good of the internet.

My kratom use has slightly escalated since my last post. I quit using dope so I've been taking Kratom only. About 14g 2x per day for the past two weeks. Yesterday I took 14g in the morning and that was it, and today I took 14g at about 12:30PM. It is 9:30PM (9 hours after last Kratom dose), and am about to see if precipitated withdrawals will occur with ~2mg Sub. I am currently in very, very mild withdrawal. Skin a little clammy and crawly, occasional chills up my spine. Infrequent yawns.

 

[pinpoint]

I can't think of any reason that Suboxone wouldn't cause precipitated withdrawal in those who are opioid-dependent, and if you are addicted to kratom then you are indeed opioid-dependent. If you are already in mild withdrawal I would take a chance personally since that's about the time I know I'm safe to dose Suboxone. Good luck and report back.

 

[ArmouredKitten]

I don't think that "opioid dependant" is the right qualifier to determine whether or not someone will experience P/W when taking suboxone.

Being in withdrawal from, say, heroin, means by definition that you are dependant but if you take suboxone far enough into withdrawal you won't have P/W.

On the other hand,

If you take like 10 or 20mg of oxycodone and it is your first experience with opiates in your entire life, or you just aren't physically dependant yet, and you take suboxone a few hours after, you will experience P/W.

I believe the only condition required to undergo P/W is that your opioid receptors are currently being acted upon by an agonist other than suboxone. And when suboxone enters the mix, it has a higher bond strength (affinity) and thus rips off the current agonist leading to sudden and extreme withdrawal until the suboxone fills those receptor sites.

 

[pinpoint]

That's interesting. I've always been told it's only opioid-dependent individuals who can experience precipitated withdrawal. I just figured those non-dependent individuals would only experience a return to baseline instead.

 

[ClayBupe7]

This thread was very helpful for me. I have been taking Kratom 12g 3x's a day. Usually Red Vein Borneo or Bali. I took subs for a couple years 1-2mg daily and used kratom to keep away from the sub wd. At the end I was only taking 0.25-0.5mg sub.

Kratom helped keep my self together. Yesterday I got a hold of 2 generic 8mg bupe. Took my morning dose of 12g of Bali Kratom at 700a. Didn't feel any WD symptoms from not taking my 2nd kratom dose either. Took 1mg bupe at 400p and had no PWD. Took another 1mg at 600p once I knew I wasn't going to get PWD. Felt great last night; even had a light nod going on. Slept great too.

 

[Lechium]

Wanted to add ny 2 cents.
Ive taken fairly large doses of powdered kratom pretty late like 6-8pm and took 1mg suboxone intranasally the next morning after about 12 hrs and was fine.

HOWEVER. One time i took about 6 g kratom in the mornin and decided to take 1mg suboxone inteansally about 8 hrs later and I had some very strange, unpleasant effects. Ive had regular precip. Wd before and this was a bit different. I was nauseous but i also had a very elevated heart rate with such bad anxiety and panic that I considered going to the ER. The feelings subsided about 3 hours later and then i ws just on suboxone. From my previous experience with PWD after traditional opiated the PWDs wouldnt last that long...generally an hour and half at most and it would feel just like regular WD but amplified. This was aomething different and much more frieghtening so I would caution anyone who takes suboxone after having kratom (especially a large dose) to wait at the very least 12 hours or try not doing it the same day.

Hope that helps add to this thread.

 

[RedHandedDenial]

I'm posting this because this topic needs much much more data. So I'm doing my part.

A little bit of background: I started using Kratom after 2 years off of all opiates in January 2015. Started doing dope in April. Been using Kratom as a bridge between dope doses ever since really. So as of last night I had been using Kratom about 2 to 3 times daily (at >7g per dose) since basically Wednesday without having any dope, so there was no concern at all that I still had heroin in my system. The strain of Kratom I refer to here is Red Maeng Da.

Yesterday I took my 1st >7g dose at around 7am then a second dose at around noon. Later on in the evening at around 8PM I start getting chills and stuff, the early onset of w/d. Mild, but enough to make me ask around for any real opiates. After not much luck for a while I took another >7g dose, (I would say closer to 10g) and wouldn't you know it, a 12mg strip of Suboxone descended from on high.

I spent several hours pouring over literally every single thread that exists on the internet regarding Kratom and precipitated withdrawal. So much conflicting information, and a lot of horror stories about pre/wd in general. Now for the (debarably) useful anecdotal data of mine:

I decided that enough people had made a good argument for taking sub-mg doses at first to try and skirt around precipitated withdrawal that I would give it a try. The "science" of it made sense to my under-educated brain.
So I waited and waited until about 5 hours after my last dose (1:30AM ish), and tore of about a 0.5mg~0.75mg piece and stuck it under my tongue. I sat there for a minute before deciding to go out to smoke a cigarette. As I got out of the chair I noticed a slight change in...something. I couldn't say what exactly. I grabbed my cigarretes and I suddenly recognized that this shift I was experiencing was similar to the anticipation/come-up/first alerts of a psychedelic trip. It could have been mostly due in part to the fact that I was expecting at any moment for sweat to just start shooting out of my pores and to start shitting everywhere, but there was definitely a little bit that wasn't placebo. Still nothing I would call withdrawal though.

Then, as I was about halfway down the stairs it all culminated into about a 2-3 second sensation of sudden warmness all throughout my body. Like one big hot flash. It made me slightly dizzy, but not too seriously. My heart rate jumped because I thought "oh shit this is it", but once my heard calmed down again I noticed that the feeling was gone and nothing more was happening. As I smoked my cigarette I was waiting for more, but more never came. As soon as I went inside I started dosing gradually more and more and actually started to get some desirable effects from the bupe.

So, TL;DR? I took 3 doses of Kratom each over 7 grams throughout the day, and took <1mg Sub strip 5 hours my last Kratom dose and all I felt was a 2-3 second hot flash

My conclusion from this (and this is just wild speculation here), that perhaps because Kratom is so weak in potency compared to bupe, and is only a selective agonist to boot (not a full agonist), I think that when the bupe knocks off whatever kratom alkaloids are left after 5 hours, there isn't much competition and that 2-3 seconds of hot flash was possibly the time it took for the bupe to replace the mitragynine it had just knocked off?

I've been up all night, I know I could have done a much better job at typing this up but I wanted to get this up here for whoever else ever found themselves wondering.

I'm also sorry to revive such an old post, but dude- I cannot get over how much my experience sounded identical to yours... I don't know if u will ever read this, but I also want to share my experience on kratom + sub = pwd?? Since I tried to research it first and couldn't find much oof anything about whether it does or does not.. okay, my story: I have been using kratom for a few months now and I had the opportunity to get an 8mg sub today, so I finally just said screwit, I'll try it I wanna feel this sub so bad, it's been so long, and I've never experienced pwd either so if I do then oh well, I do... I'm on about 10-15g kratom a day, and had just taken about 5 grams only 1.5 hr before deciding to do the sub (I IV mine, not sure if u do but don't think so due to the length of time u seemed to describe it taking in ur post. I read this post AFTER doing the sub so as I read ur post I was laughing out loud at how identical it was to mine.. almost immediately (since bupe takes about 30 secs to feel IV), I too noticed a change in... Something. Couldn't put my finger on it. I don't know about psychedelic because I've only ever done shrooms a few years ago. But I noticed a brief increase in heart rate, anxiety, and my whole body feeling something like congestion? This is what I think u meant by feeling like sweat was going to spew from ur pores. I also thought I was going to shit my pants very briefly. About 5 mins of this and then it dissipated and I began feeling that old bupe feeling. I think from these two posts together we can conclude that this is the reaction of the sub knocking the kratom off, and no, none of it was imagined or "in ur head." There is definitely something that occurs, but no, it is not anything like a withdrawal (at least it wasn't for me either). I also could have typed this better, but I'm on a phone. I hope this post helps someone looking for advice on this subject...

 

[HopelessWanderer]

OKOK.
Someone who isn't me just took about 8 g kratom around 9am. About 5 hours later injected 4mg(halfstrip) Suboxone and am completely fine. Feeling full effects of Suboxone after not taking it for 5 days.

Short Simple answer to your question. Good luck on this journey. May God bless us and may we all find freedom from the grips of addiction one day.

 

[doctorpaco]

Amen. May we ALL reach Enlightenment and NEVER suffer again; not even on our deathbed.

In jesus' name, I pray for everyone, but especially for my fellow addicts.

 

[CfZrx]

HallalouisCKya! I took 3 tsp at 12noon, gonna take sub, maybe .5 mg in an hour or 2. I am highly dependent on kratom, so we will see about PW.

 

[jb0nez]

I've used kratom to bridge to subs MANY times . No pwd. A few times if I took a sub 30 minutes after 7g red Bali kratom, I'd get a cold panicky feeling. I think oh shit I fucked up. Then within minutes it's passed and I feel good.

I think kratom is such a weak (semi)opioid that pwd is a non issue. I can't count how many times I've used subs before with and after kratom, and other than a few minutes of panic a few times, no issues.

I consider it a miracle either as a bridge to sub or just on its own. We need to fight to keep this plant legal.

 

[this-is-4-u]

TAKING SUBOXONE AFTER KRATOM PW'S??

I just did this (taking Suboxone after taking kratom) and had a hard time finding out the answer to "how long I should wait after taking kratom to avoid precip withdrawals to start Suboxone?"

I've been on Suboxone for 1 1/2 years 16mg per day and tapered down to Suboxone 2-3mg a day. I decided to try to quit cold turkey on 2mg a day Suboxone over the weekend and went into withdrawals pretty fast and was pretty uncomfortable and after 24-36 hours after my last dose I tried taking kratom liquid form about 5-7mg total it helped enough for me to go to my doctors appt to get another script of my Suboxone more comfortably.
I took 2mg of Suboxone three hours after taking that dose and had ZERO precip withdrawals. So thats just my experience if that helps but still do your research.
I've also heard that kratom works on similar receptors and that can be the reason it doesn't cause PW's, but that can also vary with dosages. Hope this helps anyone

 

[tarman]

Man, people really hate Kratom around here (it seems). I still maintain you guys are getting cheap garbage from the local headshop. Not sure if we're allowed to recommend a place, but the african animal responsible for the most deaths- that place has the good shit. Trust me... even though I was just a snorter of h, I was snorting large amounts. I, too, thought Kratom was bullshit... until I got the good stuff from my buddy. Trust me... on that day that you find yourself in severe withdrawal and you're trying to think of anything- get the fucking good kratom and you will be fine. Trust me.

 

[Lucy20]

Kratom isn't an opiate so there shouldn't be any pwd

 

[Aimee73]

Man, people really hate Kratom around here (it seems). I still maintain you guys are getting cheap garbage from the local headshop. Not sure if we're allowed to recommend a place, but the african animal responsible for the most deaths- that place has the good shit. Trust me... even though I was just a snorter of h, I was snorting large amounts. I, too, thought Kratom was bullshit... until I got the good stuff from my buddy. Trust me... on that day that you find yourself in severe withdrawal and you're trying to think of anything- get the fucking good kratom and you will be fine. Trust me.

You're right, alot of people underestimate Kratom, and I agree that it's because they buy their shit at a smoke shop, or gas station, been on the shelves for months. There are products currently sold in my local smoke shops that test negative for any active properties (no mitragynine) and some companies products were tainted with salmonella!! I get mine from the same vendor that you mention (sorta)..lol.. and I have NEVER been disappointed with their products.