Stopping the internal dialogue

[Molybdenum]

>the problem is to keep focused on the goal rather then the path.

Of course, another component of the problem is that you can't think your way to the goal itself, because it transcends thought. So it's hard to focus on the goal; I generally have found that it's better to focus on where you're currently stuck, let go of that, then let go of the next, etc. This won't bring on a full enlightenment experience everyday (but what exactly does, anyway?) but will produce gradual and permanent expansion in everyday experiencing and sometimes a much larger release as well. Both full enlightenment experiences and what you bring to the table everyday are important, IMO.

I found that it was hard to figure out exactly where I was or see past that towards the goal when I had incredibly distracting looping thoughts about events past and present that had nothing to do with my current state.

>You have mental processes, but they are at a deeper level, coming more from the center of your being.

That's as good a description in words as I've seen, though of course being ultimately has no center.

>go experience it and find out for yourself.

done and done.

 

[Drugpert]

Ok great, well, I'd like to give my own ideas about some points here but overall the most important thing is about getting personal experience with a bit of research. You cannot really discuss your way into understanding an experience, you need to live it.

Meditation and spiritual experiences cannot really be catagorised and placed into certain boxes, as leasure, work, and other activities can be. They are about peering within you and understanding you, not just about silencing your mind for a few hours. Its active involvement. As you progress, you become aware of the fundemental espects of the self and develop your fundemental internal characteristics and awarness. You then take that with you with everything you do, and everywhere you go.

So its not about being in a non-changing environment and experiencing a non-changing mind. The most simplistic way of saying it is that as you silence your mind and control your ego, your able to control your reactions to certain things. You are also able to lift the limitations you place on your perception. So, an enlightened being watching the world end would feel non-attachment, even though its an environment with extreme change, and would not be prone to running around in maddness. In a less extreme situation, say your a rascist, by taking responsibility for that you can look into your past and see where it comes from, and you can also see how your ego cycles through the patterns of a rascist. You can then break that pattern.

I am not sure if I am explaining this correctly, but basically there is sometimes a difference between how the world is and how you need the world to be. Or what you build up the world to be in your mind. Your need provails and it effects how you percieve things. By silencing your mind and going out into the world, and being aware, you can pick up on things you have never stopped to notice before. As you develop your internal awarness your one of the external world expands too, though that can be said about many things, like learning new skills.




People think in different methods, and its good you notice yours to be words. This thread is not about what each individual percieves in their internal disalogue, its about the fundemental structure of internal dialogue and the role that it plays within us all. The structure of the internal mind and consciousness is mapped out in many spiritual traditions, and ways to develop it and control it have also been researched. Those actions are what meditation and spiritual progress is about.

Someone with no internal dialogue, who goes through life with a silence mind, does still talk. He/she still has thoughts, ideas, and is able to explain themselves. Their view, awarness and state of being is just different, and you cannot understand the additional depth that comes from this all until you live it.

Alright, let me get one thing straight first; I've been studying meditative processes and psychical processes since I was 11 years old. So none of this information is new to me, and I'm not void of the experience that you say I have to seek for. Believe me, I've practiced this kind of thing for a long time, and I've put alot of energy into it. But, in the process of doing this, I realized it wasn't for me. I eventually noticed that the longer I sat still, the longer I concentrated on doing nothing, the more my mood would decline, the worse I would perceive things, and the more negatively inclined I would become (I practiced this for nearly 6 years). This is when I realized it wasn't for me. Doing things, thinking things, addressing issues is what keeps me going. I not only lost a sense of being, but I would lose all focus and perspective; at times I would become horribly depressed when doing this. That 'enlightment' wasn't for me. I was born with the ability to pay attention, to notice things that other people missed, to notice patterns in myself and in those around me (hell, when I was 10 years old I had already proved catholic principles wrong against a very educated priest), it seems that I was born with awareness.

My point is that this 'spiritual process' that you claim, is not as special as you crack it up to be, its incredibly simple. Its merely achieving a status where you are simply aware of yourself, and your surroundings. It's a realization of all the potential in the universe, within others, and within yourself. And there are millions of other ways of achieving this kind of status. For some people I know, it was merely indepth discussions with other people that changed them around to this open awareness, for some it maybe one book that completely took them up and changed their awareness (for one person I know the book "Who is God" completely changed him). There are millions of other ways of achieving this status, and holding it for every moment you live. Sure, when you're doing an activity, your mind is clear because you're immersed in what you're doing. But this awareness that you speak of, is just the process of immersing yourself with whatever is happening around, and constantly reacting to that situation. It is nothing special. This meditative process that you speak of, is nothing more then practice to doing that all the time. After all, practice makes perfect (clichés are often a great source of essential information).

The world 'spirituality' is nothing more than a hyperbole for the term 'having an open mind'. This meditation that you speak of is nothing special at all, it is just another activity to gain awareness, and to gain focus and appreciation for all things, and all potential. That is my problem with the people that claim themselves as 'spiritual beings', because its nothing more than an egotistical statement towards achieving an incredibly instinctive state of mind. After all, the Ego, according to Carl Jung, is nothing more than a construction of society, and the Self is at the core of it all; and from the Self, true growth, awareness and understanding comes.

You see, the human condition seems to be one that is infatuated with the idea of being special. This clear state of mind, being fully aware, is nothing more than an embracement with our own animal nature. Somewhere along the way, we started segregating ourselves from animals, and their processes, when in reality, we are nothing more than an animal ourselves. Observations, reactions, awareness are all simple animal qualities. The only thing about humans, is because we have so much potential for thought, we can think ourselves completely out of these instinctive processes. Like Taoists believe, 'The Way' consists of a thoughtless process, focused around spontaneity. Sounds really similar to an animal, eh?

A quick summary of my message: Spirituality is garbage. The word itself is meaningless, and its seen as such a great state of being. Its something so simple, made too complicated by those who practice it. Its yet another representation of the human condition, making simple things to complicated. This can be seen in people like mathematical and musical Savants. People like that, have the part of their brain that is attuned with imagination turned off (physically). That is what gives those savants the ability to play a masterpiece on piano by only hearing it once, or to calculate 100 digit prime numbers instantly. Savants like that hold a key towards living: the ability to make the simple, remain simple.

 

[Drugpert]

I think many people (any psychologists out there want to do a study and find some numbers?) who don't take the time to train their mind seem to have an internal dialogue going on. I used to have an absolutely dominating one, and I've pretty much gotten rid of it permanently. That doesn't mean I don't think in words when I want to work through a problem or self-analyze situations in my life, for example. It's more that there's no little guy in my head who simultaneously is and isn't me who I (and who's that? another character?) seem to be having a running conversation with. From the perspective of having dropped it it's kind of like being addicted to masturbation. You are stimulating yourself in highly reinforcing ways because the voice(s) are talking to you in ways that are consonant with your worldview, because you're generating them. This even extends to confrontational voices, like I used to have; if the voice argues with you, for example, then you just like arguing and tend to see things in a me-versus-them way. It's kind of like a continuous thought loop in the brain, and getting rid of it generally enhances your productivity and creativity because, like Void said, it's a giant time and energy drain. Even if you do get something productive out of it, like self-examination, it's still draining and distancing from reality, just like looping your thoughts about something you currently have no control over. And I'd be interested to hear from anyone who didn't have their voice spend most of the time either haranging them (usually) or unrealistically building up their self-image.

If the original poster is still reading, Void is (again) right, you have to try different things and see if they work for you. Art or sports or anything that makes you really focus to perform well will silence the internal dialogue temporarily, but usually I don't think it will do much about how strong it is in day-to-day activity. For me, breathing meditation was a good first step because it took me to a slightly altered and recognizable place that was instantly destroyed as soon as a dialogue started up. This made it easy to notice my thinking and allowed me to build up concentration power. But personally I found that doing a lot of breathing meditation led to an inclination to spend a lot of my time sitting and breathing and spacing. Then, with my improved focus, I moved on to awareness meditation, which allowed me to really see the looping and splitting thought structures for what they were, notice when I was getting dragged off by them, and see how addicted to them I was (I also created many complete fantasy worlds in middle school, like one of the previous posters mentioned). The more I understood how they were working in my system, the less they came up.

I still think plenty, it's just that there is little energy wasting dialogue and my awareness is no longer centered in my thoughts but rather more deep and expansive spaces. But this whole perspective would be impossible to describe to myself 5 years ago, when I was totally dominated in thought.

It's almost certainly necessary to kill off most of that internal dialogue before engaging in any highly directed spiritual practice, so that you can gain some level of menal clarity and stability. Unfortunately, I think a lot of eastern tradition practitioners take this too far and spend all their time off in mantra/breathing states, trying to block off all thoughts rather than just clear up their thought processes. Which of course is unnatural and impossible, and produces personality-less "zen-bots."

You helped clear things up alot. I know now that we're definitely talking about the same thing now. My point that I'm trying to stress is that sitting down and breathing isn't the only way of attuning yourself towards awareness all the time. There are millions of methods out there for millions of different people. No two people share the same experience, no two people share the same genes, so naturally, its logical to assume that no two people will ever need the same process to reach a stage of self-actualization and self-awareness.

And if you're interested to hear of a person who's internal dialogue is neither a harrassment nor an ego-feeding monster, you're hearing from a person like that right now. I can say that without an ego. Hehe.

I actually want to mention one more thing as well. I noticed, that for many people today, one of the most rewarding practices of achieving self-awareness and clarity, is by hearing outside viewpoints on yourself. I know this worked extremely well for a friend of mine, because just for once in his life he was told straight-out how he acted towards others, and how others perceived him. It opened him up to an entire new side of himself, and I can honestly say I've seen VERY impressive changes in his behavior recently. I noticed that this works very well for some people, so I thought it would be worth mentioning. After all, this thread is about ways of stopping this 'internal insanity' (I will not call it internal dialogue, because that is not what needs to be seen as a negative)

 

[Molybdenum]

No two people share the same experience, no two people share the same genes, so naturally, its logical to assume that no two people will ever need the same process to reach a stage of self-actualization and self-awareness.

Right. I just described what worked for me and why it was fairly amenable to my personality. If anyone reading sees parallels between us they might find the same methods useful. There are downsides to any method, awareness med., for example, can distance you from your emotions and turn you into a hyper-observer. Adrenaline sports, on the other hand, put you at physical risk. And etc., etc. I do think that a lot of activities that cause you to also focus on lots of stimulus at once are not going to produce changes that are as easily integrated into daily life where you don't get the same stimulus.

And if you're interested to hear of a person who's internal dialogue is neither a harrassment nor an ego-feeding monster, you're hearing from a person like that right now.

Interesting. It sounds like you can turn your dialogue on or off and you've got under control and in perspective. I think most people don't have that level of perspective at all and are spending almost all of their entire day caught in their thought loops, which is why for many a dimunition of this internal dialogue will make them feel a lot better.

for many people today, one of the most rewarding practices of achieving self-awareness and clarity, is by hearing outside viewpoints on yourself. I know this worked extremely well for a friend of mine, because just for once in his life he was told straight-out how he acted towards others, and how others perceived him. It opened him up to an entire new side of himself, and I can honestly say I've seen VERY impressive changes in his behavior recently.

Absolutely. I got smacked upside the head with my behavior and hypocrisy both by a friend and the drug during my first acid trip three years ago (which I'll have to post someday), and it really put a lot of cracks in the unhealthy structure I was building. It was kind of unpleasant at the time but absolutely critical to see. It was probably the third biggest turning point in my mental life over the last 5 years even though there were no gods or devils or lights or anything. Heck, I was barely even gettting visuals at all.

The zen teachers I tend to prefer try to just get you to see what your life is, how things are, and when you really allow yourself to see how your actions affect others and how you are blocking things out and limiting your identity then change flows rapidly and easily from that. Highly constrictive and repetitive internal dialogues, to bridge back to our original subject, tend to be a distancing mechanism that people use to isolate themselves from their experiencing.

 

[Void]

Like Taoists believe, 'The Way' consists of a thoughtless process, focused around spontaneity. Sounds really similar to an animal, eh?

A quick summary of my message: Spirituality is garbage. The word itself is meaningless, and its seen as such a great state of being. Its something so simple, made too complicated by those who practice it. Its yet another representation of the human condition, making simple things to complicated. This can be seen in people like mathematical and musical Savants. People like that, have the part of their brain that is attuned with imagination turned off (physically). That is what gives those savants the ability to play a masterpiece on piano by only hearing it once, or to calculate 100 digit prime numbers instantly. Savants like that hold a key towards living: the ability to make the simple, remain simple.

Well, I cannot speak for your experieces, but perhaps you could potentially try it from a different angle if one certain thing didnt work after years of practice.

Well, to act spontaniously as I understand it is not just being an animal. That's a bit derogatory and its missing the whole point of pratically everything IMHO. The concept is that we are all connected, and by finding that connection within, you can then follow it and act spontaniously in any situation. More so, its a platform to grow and develop that connection to eventually result in a shift of being where that connection becomes tangible like breath. One person I know would often get into a trance when in combat in vietnam, I guess that could be traced back to hunting and surviving in nature, but it takes more then just an intense experience to achieve that and control/develop it fully. Just because you find yourself in an intense experience like combat doesnt mean you have the freedom to act spontaniously.

Your right that you can use millions of different methods of gaining awarness, dependant on who you are, but their main purpose is to achieve higher states of awarness and experience. I think that once you believe you have worked it all out, thats when you stop learning and growing, and quiet frankly, no one has worked it all out.

I can tell that from your posts you have some awarness over your internal consciousness and internal dialogue, thats good. You have also claimed that you have gotten control over your internal dialogue, but that doesn't mean you have achieved everything there is to achieve in that area. I personally feel there is a lot more to consciousness then internal dialogue. I also feel that meditation/spirituality is not just another form of leisure, its not something you do while sitting to zone out for a while. Havent you ever heard of walking meditation?

 

[Void]

>the problem is to keep focused on the goal rather then the path.

Of course, another component of the problem is that you can't think your way to the goal itself, because it transcends thought. So it's hard to focus on the goal; I generally have found that it's better to focus on where you're currently stuck, let go of that, then let go of the next, etc. This won't bring on a full enlightenment experience everyday (but what exactly does, anyway?) but will produce gradual and permanent expansion in everyday experiencing and sometimes a much larger release as well. Both full enlightenment experiences and what you bring to the table everyday are important, IMO.

Hmm. Nothing really works other then intent. What your doing has its benefits like everything and negatives too. You may end up putting up blockadges yourself, and stuck in that repeditive behaviour pattern while totally missing the point. Though as long as its working there's no reason to stop, but balance in everything helps.

 

[Drugpert]

Well, I cannot speak for your experieces, but perhaps you could potentially try it from a different angle if one certain thing didnt work after years of practice.

Well, to act spontaniously as I understand it is not just being an animal. That's a bit derogatory and its missing the whole point of pratically everything IMHO. The concept is that we are all connected, and by finding that connection within, you can then follow it and act spontaniously in any situation. More so, its a platform to grow and develop that connection to eventually result in a shift of being where that connection becomes tangible like breath. One person I know would often get into a trance when in combat in vietnam, I guess that could be traced back to hunting and surviving in nature, but it takes more then just an intense experience to achieve that and control/develop it fully. Just because you find yourself in an intense experience like combat doesnt mean you have the freedom to act spontaniously.

Your right that you can use millions of different methods of gaining awarness, dependant on who you are, but their main purpose is to achieve higher states of awarness and experience. I think that once you believe you have worked it all out, thats when you stop learning and growing, and quiet frankly, no one has worked it all out.

I can tell that from your posts you have some awarness over your internal consciousness and internal dialogue, thats good. You have also claimed that you have gotten control over your internal dialogue, but that doesn't mean you have achieved everything there is to achieve in that area. I personally feel there is a lot more to consciousness then internal dialogue. I also feel that meditation/spirituality is not just another form of leisure, its not something you do while sitting to zone out for a while. Havent you ever heard of walking meditation?

.. The concept that we're all connected... I don't like that statement, its over-complicating things. We are all part of a species, and the one of the three main goals of an organism, as viewed by biology, is to ensure the survival of our own species. So it is just another form of animal nature, to place yourself at the same level of others, and too offer sacrifice to others. We're not all 'connected', we're just primally related to each other. We are nothing but animals in a candy-coating. Awareness for this connection is brought on by this simple fact. If you haven't noticed, animals in nature are extremely peaceful, even the most vicious animals have a tendency to treat others of their own kind like equals. Wolves, when they meet each other, normally do nothing other than exchange a few sniffs and maybe a howl (read Never Cry Wolf; great book). So its only normal we can fall into typical behavioral patterns like other species do with each others (just look how good bees work together); we have the potential to fall in this "Tao" (the Way) of living. Being aware that we can, develops that potential. Its not some divine connection.. its just reality, and the way things work in it.

Do not include spirituality into this ordeal, that word holds no meaning at all. Its an invention. An over-complication to a simple solution. The search for spirituality is a search for something with no meaning and no form. I absolutely can't stress how much I hate that word, because it is devoid of reasoning, and if anyone is ever asked to explain what it is, there is never a set definition. This is not a result of an imperfect language, this is a result of an imperfect concept. No two humans could ever put the exact same definition on the word, and therefore cannot be used. It is a concept about as abstact and senseless as the term God. (ooo.. i bet i'm sturring up some blood here).

I'll agree with you about the combat situation. But the act of spontaneity is a result of an obsession with the environment. That man you explained in combat, who became completely spontanious was probably able to fully invovle himself (aka: be fully aware) into the combat. However, not every can do that. Why? Because they are not fully immersing themselves with what's going on. Just like an animal, we attain the best out of ourselves when we completely put ourselves into what we're doing. For example, when a wolf is out hunting for his survival, he focuses himself completely towards the process of hunting, and becomes fully aware of his surroundings, and assesses everything as much as possible. And that wolf, because of that, can submerse himself in spontaneity, and develops a reaction towards all the changes in his scenario. This of course, comes with time though, because at first the pup can't do this, because he has still not learned full awareness. Eventually the pup becomes fully aware like his father, and becomes immersed with his surroundings as well. Much like most men can't act completely spontaneous in combat, it is for that very same reason, simply because they have not learned how. Eventually, through practice, they could learn how.

And you don't believe that meditation is a time of leisure? Of course it is. Anything that is relaxing and centering is leisure. Anything that can clear your mind, and allow you to practice a clear mind is leisure. It doesn't matter what it is, its all the same. Meditation is a learned actvity adopted as leisure just like pool is, or soccer is, or work is, or learning is. I can't stress just how.. not special it is. It's just another thing to do.

I'll agree with you about never thinking you've mastered it, because that inhibits growth, and when growth is inhibited, one tends to lose awareness because he/she thinks he/she has attained the goal of it. Awareness also involves the awareness of the potential growth in every human, including oneself. So if you have true awareness, you will be aware that life is nothing but a path of growth, and that every moment in life you can grow more as a person.

I really think we're on common terms here.. I don't feel like pushing the talk here, because I can tell its closely facing some misinterpretation. And I hate misinterpretations.

 

[Drugpert]

Interesting. It sounds like you can turn your dialogue on or off and you've got under control and in perspective. I think most people don't have that level of perspective at all and are spending almost all of their entire day caught in their thought loops, which is why for many a dimunition of this internal dialogue will make them feel a lot better.

Its not about an on or off switch, or anything of the sort. It's not about control. It's all about perspective. The way I can describe myself, is that I use every attitude and emotion as best as I can. To me, depression is not negative, it is just a different aspect of reality I'm seeing. And when I remember that in a time when I'm depressed, angry, or anything, I use that energy and focus it towards an idea, which turns the situation around and allows me to change yet again. I consider myself, and accept myself as a constantly changing being, and I take advantage of that as best as possible. I avoid those loops that way, thats how I deal with it. I develop my ideas through my different attitudes, and then at the right time I put them together in a collective group. Kind of like a dictionary of personal experience, constantly being open to new additions. That's why, for me, it was all just a matter of time before everything falls into place. I compare it too a logic question in math, where you have to solve one equation and prove that it is true. There are tons of ways of going about solving the trig equation: tan^2ß = sin^2ß/cos^2ß, some of them just happen to be faster than others.

 

[Void]

Do not include spirituality into this ordeal, that word holds no meaning at all. Its an invention. An over-complication to a simple solution. The search for spirituality is a search for something with no meaning and no form. I absolutely can't stress how much I hate that word, because it is devoid of reasoning, and if anyone is ever asked to explain what it is, there is never a set definition. This is not a result of an imperfect language, this is a result of an imperfect concept. No two humans could ever put the exact same definition on the word, and therefore cannot be used. It is a concept about as abstact and senseless as the term God. (ooo.. i bet i'm sturring up some blood here).

I think this is fundementally where we differ.

I know that you cannot fully explain what a spiritual state is. IMHO this is because unless you have experienced it, then you have no reference point to understand it, even if someone were to try to explain what they have experienced. It simply would not be part of your world view and it would most likely threaten your belief system in some way. And trying to tell how someone should go about getting into that higher state cannot be done with more then broad guidelines as its a personal journey. You never know whatpiece of info will trigger the experiece, the change in mindset. Or free the person upto such a point that they enter a spiritual awakening.

It is all about the individual, there are no magical blue pills or red pills, you just have to let go and be prepared to experience something beyone your comfort zone, even if its a million times better with no negative side effects, it is still difficult to get to that initial release of ego.

But I know that such things are possible, and the term spiritual is something more then a catch phrase to me. Unless you accept such things as possible, and try to experiment a bit to see what works, then you will remain closed off to such things and will not experience them. Coz you are in control. And if you didnt believe in such things then yeah, its perfectly rational that you wouldnt see the deeper meaning within the teachings.

 

[Drugpert]

I'm just saying there's better ways to explaining whatever it is that spirituality means. The point of language is to communicate an efficient and precise message, and the word spirituality contradicts that fundemental principle of language.

Any experience is communicatable.. Just look how people can get a concept of how atoms work.. yet they have absolutely nothing to base it on. They just learn how it works off of nothing. When I say the word 'atom', most people have an idea of its purpose, its correlation with everything, its meaning, and so on. But, if I was to say 'Spirituality' not a person alive would be able to define the word, explain how it affects things, what it consists of, or anything else of the sort. Now, is it a faulty word, or a faulty concept? All evidence points to a faulty concept, considering there is less proof of a 'spirit' in humans.

I personally use animals, savants, or just damn well anything that I can think of, as a reference point to understand the process of realizing growth and releasing one's ego. If you can't explain your point because it's a 'different experience then anyone else', that's a shitty reason. Because you have different experiences than anyone else ever has, yet you're able to explain all of those 'regular' experiences just perfectly. Our language is alot more perfect than we give it credit for, and the language is never at fault for not being able to explain something.. its the person using it. This 'experience' that you're talking about isn't above anyone's head. Everything is understandable, using the right form of communication.

 

[Void]

I personally use animals, savants, or just damn well anything that I can think of, as a reference point to understand the process of realizing growth and releasing one's ego. If you can't explain your point because it's a 'different experience then anyone else', that's a shitty reason. Because you have different experiences than anyone else ever has, yet you're able to explain all of those 'regular' experiences just perfectly. Our language is alot more perfect than we give it credit for, and the language is never at fault for not being able to explain something.. its the person using it. This 'experience' that you're talking about isn't above anyone's head. Everything is understandable, using the right form of communication.

Well, explaining a state of being and a level of awarness is somewhat different then explaining how various objects work, even at atomic levels. We can use our ideas of the planets, and the movements of objects like cars, to help us visualise how tiny little atoms work. Its just a visualisation excersice, but how are you suppose to visualise an experience you have never had, or a perception you have never had? Its more then just being in someone elses shoes, since it involves accepthing things beyond yourself, even though there is little evidence in the physical world of it, other then the personal accounts of the millions who came before you.

Plus there is the other side of it. Even if you tell someone all your experiences of how you got to that state, it doesnt mean they will be able to achieve it by following your steps. Its a personal thing and everyone has their own issues and fears to deal with.

I never believed in it either until I experienced it. Once you energy body kicks in and enchances your physical experience, how can you possible understand such things without experiencing them first? Especially if you dont believe in it. At best I could describe some characteristics of the experience, some aspects of them, and would you believe me? Or just dismiss it? But the reality of it is something you goto go through to understand.

 

[Drugpert]

The only reason why you can't get other people to believe you, is simply because you don't know how to properly express yourself. And you can't properly express yourself because you're thinking too much about this state of being. It's so basic and primal. It's incredibly easy to describe if you just use the right words. Part of the step of using the right words to explain to the person exactly what 'it' is, and what they need to 'address' is being able to represent your ideas incredibly basically. If you ever the notice the teaching styles of good teachers, its that their explanations are basic, and they relate pre-existing experience to the new thing being taught. Its the same way with good comedians, they tell they're stories extremely basically to enthroll the audience into the story.

This isn't some special state, if you can reach this state, then you have the potential to explain it properly. This is not the languages fault, this is your fault. It doesn't matter at all if a person has experienced something or not, or even something like it, they can still understand it. Why else would over 90% of the human population believe in, and 'know' such an abstract concept as God? The point I'm trying to make, once again, is that 'spirituality' is an obselete word, and concept, because it means nothing to no one.

 

[rewiiired]

^
Actually, it seems to me that people are more apt to believe in what they don't understand completely or at all. `Belief' is kind of a subtitute for `knowledge' and a kkind of weapon against uncertainty and chaos. You have maniacs running around ranting and raving about their god and how the only god is the god from their religion and how the church has all the answers or the bible has all the answers. You don't have people running around ranting and raving that the sun is going to come up tomorrow.

I do agree with you about how basic explanations are usually the best way to express an idea, and that the best teachers relate their occam's-razor explanations to common experience that the audience/class can identify with. And that if the meaning is not recieved it's not the reciever's fault -- it's the one transmitting.

Still, you have to keep in mind that sometimes there is no fundamental, shared ground. There is an incommensurability problem. You can't exactly explain color to a man blind from birth, or sound to a man who's been deaf his whole life. And somebody who's truly been outside Plato's cave and come back to tell his story is most likely going to be misunderstood. Sometimes there is a fundamental difference between two people that make it extremely challenging, if not impossible, to communicate something.

 

[Void]

You're all over-thinking this too much.

You'd have to detach yourself from the outside world quite a bit to limit that internal dialogue, either that, or pretty much shut off the part of your brain that concerns linguistics.

So you know what? If you think in words all the time, maybe even too much. BIG DEAL. If you want to think differently, open yourself up to new methods of expression. Just be open.

Well, ok, from my own personal experieces and belief I do not think you are quiet getting my whole point, which is understandable since we only see as far as our own experience and understanding goes. You have obviously thought about this topic heaps and created a rational understanding based upon your own experience, needs, and logic. Just as everyone develops their own.

The events of internal dialogue, thought process and thinking in words and three completely different things that go on within you consciousness. They may have something to do with each other, may effect each other, but overall for this discussion it is best to think of them as three seperate entities.

Lets jus say that Internal dialogue is kind of like mind chatter that goes on constantly, thought process is something deeper that you do to access subconsciousness/conscious, and thinking in words is one type of thought process. Like you said, there are other kinds, you can think in music, maths. etc. That all depends on training and practice.

Now, to get rid of internal dialogue, it means to just be. No thought process, no internal dialogue, no nothing. Just find a calm silence within and develop that, expand it, and use it in life. Not just when your sitting somewhere, but also when your out in the world to kind of remove yourself from the experience a bit and discover how various triggers effect you, how your cycles of behaviour come about, and a lot more. This actually helps you to be in the moment more as you expand your awarness of each moment. That inner silence can bring on a lot of spiritual experience and insight. By not paying attention to the internal chatter, or by silencing it, you pay more attention and deepen that silence and notice things you never noticed before. At least this is what my own personal experience has lead me to live through.

It is not about shutting off your brain, in fact, people who meditate and stuff actually activate parts of their brain that would not be used otherwise. These parts can only be activated and developed through meditation, which I feel goes to show that we have evolved with such things.

Throughout history there have been accounts of 'the veil rising'.
Of the perception you've spent your entire life in suddenly being percieved as limited, and of a complete perception occuring in that same moment. There are even accounts of the subconscious mind and conscious mind merging and working as one, of a person being perfectly aware and conscious of this as they walk through life in a higher state. Of someone being aware of this united mind and able to function directly with it, just by thinking something they get instant data retrival from their subconscious. Could you imaging such things? By my description do you know what the complete reality is of this, and all the implications on the self? I feel that platos cave is more then just a folk tale, though such things need to be told in parabels, so you get people thinking beyond themselves without actually dismissing it as a myth.

 

[Drugpert]

I really hate to revive something so dead... but... I like a good conversation.

See, what I'm trying to say is that meditation isn't the only way of doing this. Why do you think it is that people who play sports have a tendency to fight off depression, experience mental clarity, and have an overall higher sense of awareness? It's obvious! Because they're learning how to be completely involved in an act. The fact that an athlete can completely involve himself in a sport, is going to carry over into his life. There are actual studies that back up this change.

This whole 'new spiritual experience' is just a myth. It's just a fancy term for something so basic, and so primal. It's just embracing involvement. You noticed how when you really really get into something, you kind of just stop thinking, but still see everything right, still make all the right choices, and things just generally flow smoother?

You know, intentions have a big part in what the final outcome of a situation is. If you go into a situation, trying to bring out everything you possibly can from it, you're going to get more out of it. This, is how most people go into meditation. They go into thinking that they're going to change out of it, thinking that they're going to push themselves to become more, to open themselves up, etc, etc. If someone went into sports, or music, or anything else with that kind of attitude, they would most likely experience the same effects as the person in meditation.

"Now, to get rid of internal dialogue, it means to just be. No thought process, no internal dialogue, no nothing. Just find a calm silence within and develop that, expand it, and use it in life. Not just when your sitting somewhere, but also when your out in the world to kind of remove yourself from the experience a bit and discover how various triggers effect you, how your cycles of behaviour come about, and a lot more. This actually helps you to be in the moment more as you expand your awarness of each moment. That inner silence can bring on a lot of spiritual experience and insight. By not paying attention to the internal chatter, or by silencing it, you pay more attention and deepen that silence and notice things you never noticed before. At least this is what my own personal experience has lead me to live through."

I like that description, because that's the perfect description of what goes on when you're involved in a sport. The better you get at sports, the less the internal dialogue, the less the thought process, and the more nothing. You just find that silence, and you just let it grow, and from it comes an incredible awareness of what goes on around you. And you just start doing worse when you start listening to your inner voice, because you're attention to the environment goes down.

rewiiired - I like your comment about how you can't teach a blind person sight. But, personnally, I think everyone experiences that kind of clarity, that kind of awareness, that kind of meld between conscious and unconscious. I think people experience this all the time, whether they're reading fluently, doing sports (just think about how many different things there are to be aware of in sports, and the process behind the reaction to those things, its incredibly complex, but incredibly fluent and smooth!), playing music or just meditating.

 

[Void]

Dupert: You raise a great point. This stuff is a natural part of the human condition, and we did evolve with it, and maybe even because of it. It can be used and developed in sports and arts, and in any given situation.

But that is not all there is to it, you can take it a lot further. It can be used to change your whole internal makeup. That takes some effort and research though to first become aware of it, then to take control of it and finally to change it or stop it. The whole internal dialogue makes a huge impact in your life, it effects your thought process, and it can be a negative impact.