So.... who cares about the meth addicts?

[hyroller]

....Anyone?

Why is it, that heroin addicts have program-based ways and means of tapering off their opiate addictions, while long-term stimulant users have no formally endorsed way of doing the same?

The echoes & whispers of a proposed modafinil-based treatment scheme are merely that: smoke and mirrors. Presently, it seems like there is a preferential treatment towards a certain type of drug addict, over another. And not just in our country.

You can say what you like about the withdrawal effects for opiate users being more severe, more enduring, longer-lasting, etc etc. But the fact - that any long-term stimulant user will attest to - is that the side-effects from giving up speed and particularly ice, are not by any means pleasant, or less engrossing, particularly in the first few weeks of stopping use (especially when a person's immunity levels are fuck all to begin with, and falling ill becomes even more likely without the presence of stims).

...Which is why it is all too easy to fall back in to the trap of getting more gear - not to get high, but to merely be able to get out of bed, and get about the daily list of things one needs to achieve in this life, simply to get by. Quitting should not have to cost someone up to a month of their life, isolated from the outside world, if they are the type of user that has maintained a 'normal' working/schooling lifestyle alongside their regular use. But the lack of alternatives available makes quitting near-impossible for certain people... and my question is... why has the government taken its sweet time in formulating a method for combating meth addiction? It is no less serious and no more pleasant than a heroin addiction. To me it seems... well, just slightly unfair.

Anyone else have any views on this?

 

[Bob Loblaw]

For one thing, there aren't really drugs like Buprenorphine and Methadone in the stimulant world.

 

[Jakeperson]

Ice junkies are always going psycho, haven't you seen the adds?

They're too dangerous!

 

[hoptis]

If someone makes the effort to start a decent, serious thread please don't take up room in it if all you have to post is rubbish.

 

[Jakeperson]

Maybe you missed the point of it then Hoptis. I'd rather you not call my posts rubbish before reading between the lines.

Here it is the point of my post, plain and simple for you. "Because how do you think the public would react to it?"

 

[Jabberwocky]

Maybe you missed the point of it then Hoptis.

Here it is the point of my post, plain and simple for you. "Because how do you think the public would react to it?"

what do you think the publics reaction was with the introduction with ORT (opiate replacement therapy) way back when? once people get over the sitgma of these programs and accept the fact that people are going to continue to get high and in turn possibly need help down the line then we (society) will be better for it.

nice topic hyroller ill be keeping track of this thread and probably have some more input since ive been addicted to methamphetamines and am currently addicted to morphine.

For one thing, there aren't really drugs like Buprenorphine and Methadone in the stimulant world.

there are actually trials out where theyre implementing dex-amp as meth replacement along with other stimulant type drugs like modafinal(sp, and i may be mixing this up with another drug) in NZ and i think Aus at the moment. ive briefly read some things here and there so i may be mixing some details up so if i can get out of my couch lock position at the moment ill do a little research and come back with what i find.

another blueighter, footscrazy, has told me a little about this in the past so hopefully she may chime in some time. im sure drug wench would also know a bit about these programs which are taking off

 

[Jakeperson]

Haha, I'm too young to know, I have no idea when ORT was started.

I thought it is/was a fairly new thing, last 10 years? In which case the public would have had a fair time to die down between the ending of the intense Gov. hype and when ORT actually started.

Right now the government won't allow it because it has this wonderful "Just Say No" approach that fixes every thing. Right now Meth is the devil to them, and the public. No matter what they will not condone its use in anyway.

Another thing to throw in there is, every meth addict I know is also addicted to Benzo's, thanks to their friendly neighborhood doctors that pretty much through benzo's at any one with a meth problem.

 

[psytaco]

For one thing, there aren't really drugs like Buprenorphine and Methadone in the stimulant world.

I would say this is the main reason. A decent pharmacological treatment hasn't been designed yet.

Also, I think there may be a misconception that amphetamine addiction is not as serious as addiction to heroin.

Further, because amphetamine addiction is a relatively new phenomena compared to opiate addiction (been around for centuries, as opposed to the last half century), i guess there is a better level of understanding and treatment clinics and processes already in place.

I don't think that people addicted to ice are more stigmatised than people addicted to heroin. Both are seen in a very low light, by general society, and also by many recreational drug users. i doubt most people would know the difference; a junkie is a junkie

 

[Jakeperson]

Even though people look down on these users, I have noticed a lot more sympathy towards heroin addicts from the general public.

 

[bit_pattern]

I would say this is the main reason. A decent pharmacological treatment hasn't been designed yet.

This.

Was going to say much the same thing but you guys more than made the point

 

[my innerself]

I think you will find that heroin addicts suffer a far worse withdrawel effect to that of a speed freak. I used to IV ice for 4 years. At times up to 7 or 8 times a week (tonnes and halfs). I would take extended breaks occasionally from a few days to a few weeks or even a couple of months. I didn't feel the need to have some form of amphetamine in doses tapering down to relieve myself from withdrawels. Basically after a taking larges doses I would come down and crash. While I was walking around like a zombie I would want another shot to boost me up but it wasn't like I had hardcore withdrawels. I dont think speed users really need such a program. For me personnally I wouldn't even shoot up 1 point, no point to it really. Its either a tonne (and has to to be koota) or a half or nothing.

 

[expothead]

once upon a time there were politicians that made tough but compassionate decisions about the direction of policy and the allocation of funds. Back then we use to setup drug clinics (and welcome boat people).

These days, dollars are hard to find (through mismanagement most likely) and it's largely about making sure your party is in government at the end of the day... at all costs.

Perhaps meth addiction, being a relatively new phenomenon, has simply missed the boat...

(sorry, i think xmas time has made me cynical).

 

[footscrazy]

The echoes & whispers of a proposed modafinil-based treatment scheme are merely that: smoke and mirrors.

This is untrue, I took part in the clinical trial of modafnil for meth withdrawal last year.

In Melb at least, in the past year, there has been a huge increase in funding specifically for stimulant users. Turning Point Drug Clinic opened a whole new clinic - Access Point, which specifically and only deals with stimulants users (ice mainly, but also cocaine and mdma). Through this clinic information has been collected about the best ways to treat stimulant addiction - as part of this program I have received cbt therapy, acceptance based theory, detoxes, psychiatrist assements as well as taking part in the modafinil trial (all for free, as well). They are also able to pescribe medications such as benzos or antidepressants. The people on this trial also fill out regular surveys to see how effective each treatment is. Furthermore, a specific SMART recovery group has been set up for stimulant users only, which I have found is really much more effective and beneficial than a group which contains alcohol/opiate users too, as the patterns of use are quite different.

I have been inc redibly impressed by the work Turning Point have done in furthering research into stimulant addiction/recovery, which has, like you said, in the past been neglected or at least its not been appreciated that there are specific differences with it.

I think the stimulant programs have taken longer to appear because of the phases in drug use - in the past heroin use (in melb especially) has been a much more conspicous problem, and it's only in the last 5 years or so that significant amounts of stimulant users are presenting to clinics for treatment. Also, stimulant users tend to be more functional, and have therefore been slower to come into treatment, and also to stick at it.

Also, the patterns of use between meth and heroin users are different. Heroin users are bound to consistent use by the withdrawal in a way that meth addicts just aren't. I'll be the first to say that meth withdrawal is no fun, but I just don't think there is such a need for a consistent 'daily dose' which makes finding suitable pharmacotherapy more difficult imo. In meth withdrawal the problem is much more psychological and it is notoriously hard to find drugs to 'fix' psychological problems/damage (anti depressants being a case in point).

 

[andyturbo]

very interesting topic have wonderd that myself in the past

 

[PurplePoppy]

Meth is a much newer drug and one that governments will ignore unless they really have to. Its mostly down to cost also hospitals will avoid allocating spending money on it until they have to i recon.

 

[psytaco]

Fantastic post footzcrazy!

I had no idea that such a fabulous clinic existed.

I hope all is going well for you now.

 

[hyroller]

Well, there's some fantastic info there, as psytaco said. I for one was unaware such facilities were available.

But the point I am more getting at, is that if the annihilation of ice use/production/distribution is so high up on the government's agenda, why aren't they implementing more means for rehabilitation? Surely, after having taken so long to formulate successful ways to combat heroin addiction, they would have foreseen the need to create a similar strategy for meth withdrawal. We've all heard about the destructions wrought by rampant 'ice epidemic' over the last decade - so why not, instead of focusing so much on drug busts and such, put just as much energy into designing a form of medical treatment?

I wonder if there are similar groups being established in other cities in Australia, such as the ones mentioned above?

 

[Crankinit]

Honestly, I imagine it's less to do with a lack of desire to help amphetamine addicts, and more to do with actually finding a viable manner of doing so. Modafinil is a great drug, but it's no replacement for meth, not by a long shot. The alternative is prescribing dexamp as a replacement therapy, but unlike opiates (where the issue facing many addicts doesn't stem from the drug itself, but from the lifestyle choices made to feed the addiction, and the physical withdrawal is a huge deterrant from detoxing), heavy dexamp abuse is going to not be a whole lot healthier than meth use. You still have to deal with neurotoxicity, and sleep deprivation, mental health (depression/anxiety/psychosis), a mounting tolerance requiring progressive increasing of doseage, etc etc.

I just don't see it as being a whole lot healthier than actually smoking meth. The argument could be made that, much like opiate replacement therapy, it would allow an adjustment of lifestyle away from criminal activity and the constant acquisition of drugs, but the trade off is that you're effectively feeding their addiction, instead of just staving off withdrawal. You could try taper them down, but without some serious commitment from the user and a lot of lifestyle changes and psychological care, chances are they'd slip back into meth use as soon as sobriety or their shrinking doseage of dexies isn't doing it for them anymore. If you limit the timeframe of the program, if they're not ready to quit they'll just fall right back into their old ways, and if you don't, then the program is just throwing free speed at people, who'll continue to deteriorate from their useage.

 

[drug_FUCKED]

Not any Drug rehab doctors i have seen.
I have heard about doctors lol at patients sad but true.

 

[footscrazy]

^ I must admit I always felt like the staff were pretty unsympathetic towards me when I was in detox for meth - and I've heard the same from my friends who've been in detox for meth, too. All I wanted to do was sleep for the first few days but it was like they thought I was doing it to be difficult or to piss them off, and they were constantly banging on my door to wake me up.
I definitely think detoxes are designed for opiate/alcohol/benzo users and prob really more necessary for them anyway, I never saw any great benefit of me going to detox for 10 days off meth in a residential setting.

But, I agree with Crankinit for the most part. The main problem with quitting meth as I see it is not the withdrawal as such, but the lasting PAWS - just the general apathy, tiredness and greyness which lasts for months to years and sees people relapsing because life is just much less enjoyable without the drug. I don't think this calls for pharmacotherapy, as like Cranknit said, any replacement drugs for meth will continue to be neurotoxic and make the severity and length of PAWS worse when you eventually come off that drug. And permanent therapy with dexamphetamine etc is not ideal as unlike opiates, these drugs continue to cause damage.

It's a tough one, I think that there is a place for drugs, but nothing that has been discovered yet, really, unless anti depressants work for you. I actually think CBT and acceptance based therapies, as well as mindfullness, meditation etc, are the most powerful tools to deal with meth withdrawal. It still sucks though.