"siezure" like events Ive found related to mushrooms.

[porkstock]

I think it's most likely simply a characteristic of psilocybin itself.

i have to agree with this

and offer my own anecdotal report.

9 hours after dosing ~150 ug LSD, and after some shots of rum...my friend dosed ~30 mg 4-aco-dmt and about 15 minutes later had one of these seizure-like fainting episodes.

it's not just people who can't handle their trip...or it is..but they PHYSICALLY cannot handle it.

he collapsed to the floor and had 3 or 4 "full body constrictions" i think is what my brother called it.

once he came to (not long) he reported having blacked out and was completely coherent. he took it easy the rest of the night.

 

[Solipsis]

Sorry no, imo there are no trends or waves in prevalence... people are hard-wired to see patterns in events plotted over time and we generally keep seeing them even when they are not really there: random data is very strange for us to interpret. Humans are incredibly bad at statistics, and we also are bad at realizing how bad we are at it. It takes healthy skepticism to ignore the influence of this confusion, please don't get carried away and try to apply occam's razor when you can.

But I think it is too much skepticism to dismiss seizure-like events as panic attacks. There are many types of seizures and epileptiform activity and it takes proper and acute (not retrospective) differential diagnosis by trained medical professionals to figure out what happened, this is true.
However there are distinct symptoms that make epileptiform activity different from panic attacks. Yes, panic attacks are incredibly good at simulating concerning symptoms such as heart attacks, but convulsions and tonic / clonic fits are a bit harder to fake out of the blue, even psychosomatically. It is much more likely that types of hyperactivity in the brain add an 'extra dimension' to the various flavors of seizures that can occur naturally. If you ask me, psychedelic induced epileptiform activity can probably 'borrow' from all kinds of distinctly observed / defined episodes. The thresholds for having particular kinds of abnormal 'seizing' brain activity is probably lowered by various drugs (and increased by others but, they are not the topic of discussion), and thus some induction of various seizure like episodes occurs.
I have read threads about specific synthetic cannabinoids which can apparently emulate specific types of seizure-like episodes, but they are transient and do not tend to be 'remembered' as being an alarming sort of fit that overwhelmed the person. Granted these are anecdotal observations and the theories are tentative, but all things considered... to call the far majority panic attacks seems quite ignorant and inappropriate.

It reminds me of the issue of overdiagnosis / misdiagnosis - all involving self-diagnoses - of serotonin syndrome. There are differences when comparing this seizure subject with that issue, but while a lot of cases surely cannot properly be diagnosed as serotonin syndrome, all the signs of serotonin overactivity may still be there. While the whole overdiagnosis is quite hysterical, the role of having too high serotonin levels is still quite real and the effects are not a product of hysteria. It is merely exaggerated or too complicated to just call it serotonin syndrome. It is probably better to acknowledge the occurrence of other unnamed, milder and certainly much less lethal forms of serotonin hyperactivity.
Similarly IMO we should acknowledge that there are different, particular psychedelic induced seizure-like activity that may occur.

 

[spacejunk]

Some of these descriptions sound like fainting/passing out.
I know that on mushrooms and other psychedelics, I have certainly experienced the uncomfortable dizziness of low blood-sugar.
This could be attributable to the effects of the drug, or of casting prior to consumption - or both.
Before jumping to any conclusions, I would suggest considering the fact that all psychedelic drugs must be treated with respect, as they are extremely powerful and unpredictable.
Large doses, combinations, tripping in states of physical stress or fatigue (ie not having slept for a long period of time) can all contribute to complications, if they arise.
Psilocybe mushrooms may be a 'natural' and relatively simple (to procure, prepare, consume etc) source of psychedelic experiences, but like anything else, they must be treated with respect.
By that, I mean - just because they are generally 'safe' - this does not mean their use is risk-free.

I've never heard of, or witnessed seizures (or anything resembling them) on mushrooms - but I would imagine that any great risk of risk of seizures occurring would come to be known sooner rather than later.
Having said that, I do not know what the various risks (or health effects) of mould contamination - in picked wild or cultivated mushrooms would be.
It should be stated that if you are in doubt regarding mould contamination, that the shrooms in question should be discarded (much like mouldy cannabis).

 

[Seattle_Stranger]

So far, nothing but speculation in this thread.

 

[al-laddin]

Some of these descriptions sound like fainting/passing out.
I know that on mushrooms and other psychedelics, I have certainly experienced the uncomfortable dizziness of low blood-sugar.
This could be attributable to the effects of the drug, or of casting prior to consumption - or both.
Before jumping to any conclusions, I would suggest considering the fact that all psychedelic drugs must be treated with respect, as they are extremely powerful and unpredictable.
Large doses, combinations, tripping in states of physical stress or fatigue (ie not having slept for a long period of time) can all contribute to complications, if they arise.
Psilocybe mushrooms may be a 'natural' and relatively simple (to procure, prepare, consume etc) source of psychedelic experiences, but like anything else, they must be treated with respect.
By that, I mean - just because they are generally 'safe' - this does not mean their use is risk-free.

I've never heard of, or witnessed seizures (or anything resembling them) on mushrooms - but I would imagine that any great risk of risk of seizures occurring would come to be known sooner rather than later.
Having said that, I do not know what the various risks (or health effects) of mould contamination - in picked wild or cultivated mushrooms would be.
It should be stated that if you are in doubt regarding mould contamination, that the shrooms in question should be discarded (much like mouldy cannabis).

Im with you space junk. While researching further into this topic I realize that the more I learn of these side effects, the more I know I need to be better aquanited with them so Im prepared to act accordingly if/when theses things occur within my peer group. I must say unfortunately most trippers that I know are quite reckless due to naivety. If an episode like this is to occur Im less likely to panic and be able to calm the situation. It seems that EVERY report of these seizures doe in fact seem like a fainting spell and slight convulsions occur but the people who have them seem to come back just fine. I havnt heard if any lasting health problems from any of dozens upon dozens of reports I have read. I was a bit more alarmed at first discovery but Im a little more at ease with it.

I read YET another report of two healthy individuals (husband and wife) who consumed 34 grams fresh each of some home cultivated cubensis. On the decline of the trip the wife dropped and convulsed. The man ran over to her aid and once she came too he dropped and convulsed only to come to hs senses with his wife staring down at him. Neither have ever suffered a siezure prior to this event. I find this bizzare as I have read many similar reports of people dropping and seizing like its the thing to do. Its quite natural to assume that there may be something in certain batches because of the way these events play out but what do I know Im no scientist.

 

[lenses]

I haven't parsed this whole thread yet. But it has happened to me as well. I have a theory.

Was +2:00 on 3.5g amazing quality mushrooms. Was on the lake , on a boat, listening to Aphex Twin "Windowlicker". I am very susceptible to trance naturally...

Focused on the music and my body started to twitch and seize in response to the music. It felt like my body was crossing the sound into my muscle control . It was not unpleasant at all, except for the strange response of my friends around me. It felt very peaceful, just complete and total , uninterrupted, flow. This occurs at dosages where glossolalia shows itself.

There has been a lot of new research regarding ... emotionally induced seizures. I can't recall the term but I have a feeling it may tie into that. Think mind-body energetic manifestations.

Now I just get spontaneous yoga.

In conclusion : IT IS A TRANCE!

-lenses

 

[alf meneas]

I haven't parsed this whole thread yet. But it has happened to me as well. I have a theory.

Was +2:00 on 3.5g amazing quality mushrooms. Was on the lake , on a boat, listening to Aphex Twin "Windowlicker". I am very susceptible to trance naturally...

Focused on the music and my body started to twitch and seize in response to the music. It felt like my body was crossing the sound into my muscle control . It was not unpleasant at all, except for the strange response of my friends around me. It felt very peaceful, just complete and total , uninterrupted, flow. This occurs at dosages where glossolalia shows itself.

There has been a lot of new research regarding ... emotionally induced seizures. I can't recall the term but I have a feeling it may tie into that. Think mind-body energetic manifestations.

Now I just get spontaneous yoga.

In conclusion : IT IS A TRANCE!

-lenses

Yes, had a similar 'episode' while sober, and waiting to give blood. Bit funny around needles and worked myself up. When they did the finger-prick thing at the start to run the first screening I became hypervigilant and intensely focused on the reflections in the droplet forming on my finger, entered into a very strange series of hallucinations while my body was apparently arching backwards off my chair and going through a few contractions. Came to with concerned nurses and a very sore neck.

I also think that some of these events may be put down to low blood sugar/pressure and fatigue. I'm not sure if there's a chemical effect in (say) mushrooms that would exacerbate this, but I know that if I was laid down mostly still and spacing out for half an hour, then sprang to my feet to go to the other room, I would most likely fall to the floor.

Possibly a bit of 'mass hysteria' at play here too, feeding into the effect mentioned above?

Not that I'd rule out any other causes. 8)

 

[.:Holy::Toast:.]

I have had this happen twice, once was on a large dose of mushrooms and the other was a large dose of 4-aco-dmt.
Every experience begins the same, I begin to get significantly higher out of nowhere, then I get dizzy and disoriented then I faint and shake for a couple seconds and when I come too I'm unable to see out of my left eye for usually 15-20 minutes.
Very strange experiences and I wish I knew what caused them because it has caused my to shy away from mushrooms and other tryptamines.

 

[Chaos Witch]

As far as I know, practically every psychedelic tryptamine under the sun with more than just a few known instances of human use has been associated with tremors of some sort. These all seem to be transient without producing any real dangers, though sometimes they can be uncomfortable (depending on the experience). With this in mind I don't think it's unreasonable to think that any of these tryptamines including psilocin could cause some convulsive activity considering how much they already overstimulate your mind and then you mix them with aforementioned things like fatigue and improper diet and THC, which is just a less potent form of the synthetic cannabinoids which cause seizures in overdose.... I have even seen someone have one of these twitchy fainting spells from smoking weed alone. Food afterward helped him return to normal, so it was probably something like low blood sugar... which would further backup what was said before about the mushroom incidents.

These spells don't seem to be particularly dangerous other than things already mentioned like risk of falling in an awkward way or on to something, but of course they're probably not great for you either.... Best thing to do really is just remember that taking drugs is not just an escape from reality. Treating your mind and body properly still matter and are in fact more important than ever when you've voluntarily ingested a potential toxin (i.e., any drug). Harm reduction is always key, it's good to remember it and remind others around you too if you really want everyone to be as safe as possible.

It's worth noting too that while mushrooms seem to be pretty safe judging my their history of human use, this doesn't necessarily have to apply to its synthetic analogues.... If anything like this ever happens to you or someone you know on a research chemical psychedelic, I would advise considering strongly whether or not you really want to use it again....

 

[Solipsis]

Hi thanks for posting welcome to the forum

Some of the synthetic analogues like 4-AcO-DiPT seem to be a little more prone than others to cause tremolous side-effects. That said, we don't know whether having tremors in the legs besides feeling tryptamine 'jelly-legs' are side-effects in any way related to the seizure type episodes although I definitely agree on the superficial similarities. But they might indeed very well be related.

 

[StanleyJobson]

This thread is making me paranoid. I took 5 grams on mushrooms in the forest the other day, and ended up 95% sure I was going to die in there. The only thing that kept me sane was telling myself that mushrooms are safe, and you can't die from psilocybin. I can only imagine the panic that would've happened if I had to worry about seizing.

 

[al-laddin]

Ok Im still going to assuming that these are more black outs and convulsions than seizures that one should be really concerned about. Not that one SHOULDNT BE concerned. Its obviously still something we should try to prevent. Anyway after doing some more casual research I have found that many people believe that these "seizures" may be a result of low blood sugar. If this is the case then we are getting somewhere and may be able to prevent them. So would it be wise to eat something sweet or have sweets on hand during a psilocybin trip? What would cause low blood sugar in the first place? I actually do recall feeling faint and weak while on mushrooms a few times resulting in some pretty extreme lethargy. For those of you who have tried aya/pharmahuasca have you heard of /or seen seizure-like happenings?

 

[Si Dread]

This thread is making me paranoid. I took 5 grams on mushrooms in the forest the other day, and ended up 95% sure I was going to die in there. The only thing that kept me sane was telling myself that mushrooms are safe, and you can't die from psilocybin. I can only imagine the panic that would've happened if I had to worry about seizing.

Easy Stanley, easy. You don't want to be tripping paranoid! Despite the percieved prevelance of these events, I still do not feel they are particularly common, & even if they were, the events do not seem particularly dangerous. That is not to suggest that one shouldn't seek to avoid them, nor that I am a doctor & that I know what I'm talking about! Obviously, any kind of seizure is concerning. But if these things are little more than a fainting spell, they really aren't anything to worry about too much. If they are genuine seizures, then the sufferer should always seek proper medical advise as soon as possible afterwards, just in case they are an indication of some more serious, impending cebebrovascular (stroke) event.

Has anyone had a seizure-like event tripping & been to the doctor/hostpital about it..? What did they say?

 

[Bare_head]

I have not but have had seizure / blackouts on high dose mushrooms or 2ct-7

 

[Jonneh]

I would agree that there is little need to invoke factors beyond the psychedelic molecules themselves. Psilocybin increases the power of certain types of oscillatory activity (although it appears to decrease global brain activity) with known links to epileptiform activity. This is not necessarily anything to be afraid of; any molecule with any effect moves one closer to a pathological state - that's the nature of a bidirectional spectrum!

Solipsis' point about medical diagnoses is an important one, in my opinion. The criteria for diagnosis of a condition are at least somewhat arbitrary insofar as they relate to the cause for concern, or damage caused by an event (such as a seizure). It need not be the case that the (technically nonexistent) knee of a severity-damage curve corresponds to the medical threshold for diagnosis. As is usually the case, this a graduated range we're dealing with, and just as it's possible to move closer to an epileptic state without cause for concern, one can find one's brain in a condition that is at the very least unsettling, and even functionally relevant, without meeting the established criteria for a seizure (indeed, certain people are familiar with what these states feel like).

The case of psychogenic (or 'non-epileptic') seizures, as Si mentions, is an interesting one. 20-30% of intractable cases of epilepsy appear to belong to this category, and given the typically lively (and occasionally panicky) mind of the psychedelic drug user, it may well be that the figure is similar for seizures induced by psychedelic drugs, despite the fact that many of these substances legitimately lower the seizure threshold. The issue is a difficult one though, because the set of criteria used to diagnose a 'real' seizure by no means include all 'physical' causes (as opposed to psychological ones - what a dualist world we live in!). A doctor friend of mine told me about a case of a girl he'd attended to who had frequent and sudden-onset seizures, and yet had a completely normal EEG (the most important criterion for diagnosing epileptic seizures - epileptic activity should be present). Most of the medical staff that looked at her case suspected psychogenic seizures. Finally, it turned out she had an autoimmune disease that targeted her NMDA receptors - an action sufficient to produce fits without epileptic activity.

In the end, though, although there is almost certainly an increased risk of seizure from psilocybin, especially in combination with cannabis or nitrous, worrying about it is probably the most unproductive thing you can do, and if the incidence of these events is indeed increasing (which I doubt), then this may be their cause.

 

[SONN]

I've never had a seizure, but when on 15mg 4-aco-DMT and after drinking a lot of coffee that morning. I swear I could feel one coming on so I took xanax to make sure it didn't happen. I kept getting a tingling/numbness and kind of convulsing/vibrating tension feeling happening in a my muscles and the sensations kept getting closer to my face/head and it was freaking me out. I legitimately thought a seizure was almost definitely going to happen so I tranqed myself and I was right as rain %)

 

[OnMyWayHome]

I have been reading here on bl for awhile, decided to make an account finally because of this post. My brother has epilepsy and I know a decent amount about seizures, most of these accounts I have read do not seem to be classified as a "seizure". What has been said on here from my own expierence is what I call the "Shaman Shake". I have been to this state already knowing the possiblities. The first time this happened to me I took an MAOI with 6 grams of mushrooms (which is also the last time I let myself get this deep on psylosibin because it was profoundly life changing) this is also the deepest expierence I have had with mushrooms. If you do research on shamanism you will find this to be a very common occurence in very spiritual/profound shamanisitic expierences. The problem is you have to let yourself get deeper into the expierence after the initial eyes in the back of the head/shake to get any real spiritual gratification from it. Much Love

 

[theacidtest]

Just figured I'd contribute to the thread by mentioning that I've used mushrooms in dosages up to about 5 grams and never experienced any seizure type activity. I've also given mushrooms to a large number of people over the years and no one had a negative physical reaction.

It does make me concerned about giving mushrooms to my girlfriend though. She's not epileptic (I think) but she does exhibit some symptoms. She's unable to play video games as they induce nausea very quickly and strobing lights make her intensely nauseous and feel like she's going to black out. She's taken LSD several times and she tolerates it extremely well, but mushrooms could be totally different.

 

[OnMyWayHome]

Even if your girlfriend had Photosensitive Epilepsy which is rare and would most likely already have been realized due to past expierences, video games, or going to a concert. This form of epilepsy is most likely not very damaging to the body or mind other than slight after effects lasting only a day or two. If you are or her are that worried I would titrate the dosage accordingly and test the grounds. IMHO, If there has been no seizures beforehand I would attribute the nausea from video games to be more of a motion sickness type of deal. Let me know what you think..

 

[theacidtest]

Even if your girlfriend had Photosensitive Epilepsy which is rare and would most likely already have been realized due to past expierences, video games, or going to a concert. This form of epilepsy is most likely not very damaging to the body or mind other than slight after effects lasting only a day or two. If you are or her are that worried I would titrate the dosage accordingly and test the grounds. IMHO, If there has been no seizures beforehand I would attribute the nausea from video games to be more of a motion sickness type of deal. Let me know what you think..

That's more of what I think as well, it seems to be kind of a motion sickness type thing, but strobing lights do effect her quite badly. She'll probably end up trying mushrooms at a moderate dose, I don't like going over two grams anyway so we'll probably dose in that range. She's in no hurry to try mushrooms though, as she's quite fond of LSD and we have plenty to last us.