"siezure" like events Ive found related to mushrooms.

[al-laddin]

Ok so Im literally startled and a bit concerned with how many threads on numerous forums Ive seen with reports of individuals having "siezures" from ingesting modest amounts of psilocybin mushrooms.. whats more is many of these users have used mushrooms many times before at varying dosages and many have no history of seizures.

I continued my search thinking "this isn't right". Why is this NOW popping up? I mean this is extremely common according to how many results Im finding just googling "seizures mushrooms". Many popular forums are riddled with these reports. I have always assumed mushrooms to be an extremely physically benign substance. Even ant drug advocates dont have much to say about physical dangers and mushroom use. I mean they have been used religiously for thousands of years with little mention of dangers.

EDIT : Curious since benzo raise the seizure threshold could one use a small amount of benzo with mushrooms to decrease the risks??

Im just saying, that this SEEMS like a new trend. Ive never heard about this before except the odd stories of people taking heroic doses with numerous other substances. In comparison to other similarly benign psychedelics mushrooms seem to have the HIGHEST reports of user "seizing".

So , lets face it , most of us here are not doctors and have no medical training so when we see someone fall to the ground and start vibrating we automatically assume SEIZURE. All we know about SEIZURES is they are VERY BAD. But my digging around on the interent yielded some interesting information that I didn't know...falling to the ground and shaking...even violently does not necessarily mean its a seizure. What I have found is that most of these reports describe something like a convulsive syncope . Which isn't exactly healthy but its far more benign than a seizure. A convulsive syncope is basically "fainting with convulsions". This can result from low blood sugar or dehydration and its not uncommon even without the presence of drugs in the system.

Now I cant be sure that ALL or even 90% of these "seizures" are the more benign convulsive syncope but many of these reports are from people who lack any education in the medical field and its happening to people with no prior history of epileptic episodes. I just want to crack the code on why its so common with mushrooms. Hmmmm. Any thoughts?

 

[Cream Gravy?]

My friend had a 'convulsive syncope' as you describe, last 4/20. He had done 2C-C the night before, then some sort of mushie chocolate on 4/20. He fell to the floor and fainted, hitting his head, after taking a bunch of g-bong rips. I just assumed that the g-bong rips were too much for him, he turned out fine, my buddies just watched over him till he recovered shortly after. I doubt these mushie "seizures" are of any true concern.

 

[Shee-un]

Yeah, many forget about weed during a trip

 

[Solipsis]

Just like brain zaps I think they are a result of certain kinds of disrupted / excessive / synchronized brain activity, and while the concerning kinds of seizures are usually associated with nasty medical causes / comorbidity... in themselves the mild versions don't seem to be that dangerous, unless they are of the full-on full-body kind and go on for too long. And apart from falling down in unfortunate ways of course.
Since with the kinds we are looking at with psychedelics, those nasty causes are not there to associate them with (the psychedelics are simply the cause)... I think that it asks for different interpretation. I don't know much about epilepsy but in itself having that kind of fit is not a dangerous forebode of something else, right? So maybe it is more fair to think of fits on psychedelics as having transient epilepsy?

Personally I've only had brain zaps before from IIRC mushrooms, and another time after heavy MDMA use. Those too are much scarier than they apparently really are.

That said, I think there are a number of reasons why people who get epileptiform activity or brain zaps constantly from types of serotonergic drugs, may wanna reconsider their use... if they are not put off themselves.

Here is the centralized thread on this topic: click
(May be merged later)

 

[al-laddin]

Solipsis, could these "seizures" be caused by some sort of microbe or bacterium? Something else Ive noticed is sometimes two people in a group that are partaking in the mushrooms will have a "seizure" and they never have had "seizures" before. These events seem to be common enough to where this side effect would be commonly discussed and people would be properly warned about the possibility.

Im wondering if we can take a closer look at the synthetic analogues and see what percentage of users experience these events that would be an interesting start.

Is it common to have seizure like events from food poisoning(microbes)?

From what I understand when cultivating mushrooms one must pluck them while the caps are still closed. During this time their immune defenses are still vigorous and they havnt been exposed to trhe possibility of miscrobes as long as open caps. As an added bonus they are more poten by weight. Some people really trying to get "the most" out of their mushrooms will let them grow as big as possible adding weight to their yield, but resulting in a weaker end product. Also more likely to be infected with microbes as the defenses of the mushrooms have weakened and they have been exposed to the elements for a longer period of time.

Picking wild mushrooms may be even less safe in regards to microbes for obvious reasons.

 

[Tryptamino]

My friend had a "seizure" on mushrooms, and I watched it happen, it was definitely a seizure. it disturbs me to hear of more reports.

 

[al-laddin]

tryptamino, Its really disturbing. Have yourself a little search and you will see what I mean. There are too many reports to count. On many many forums, reddit, etc. Its quite worrying as mushrooms were going to be my go-to, worry free psychedelic. Now, I feel this worry might be in th eback of my head when I use them again.

 

[Solipsis]

I very much doubt that it has anything to do with microbes, there shouldn't be significant populations of other bacteria or fungi living on properly cultivated Psilocybe mushrooms... and while there apparently do exist certain - unrelated - microbes that can live in the brain and affect our behavior (some types are found in about half of all people), I think in this context it is a wild and farfetched jump that is unnecessary. To suppose somthing like that you need at least some lead that evidences it.
Tryptamine alkaloids affect receptors in our brains and consequently brain function, one of the outcomes may be epileptiform activity... are synthetic psychedelics excluded from being able to cause seizures, fits, brain zaps and similar neurological events? I think not, never heard anything like that.

 

[al-laddin]

in the main siezures and psychedelics thread that you linked, I believe it was one of the first entries , the poster said that several people had seizures from the same batch and that they were homegrown and "slightly rotten". Wishful thinking perhaps. But its hard to believe that's its the tryptamine considering so many years we believed they were physically benign and several people who seemingly have never had issues with epilepsy seize upon ingeting mushrooms from the same batch? This isn't the first time Ive read that several people seize from the same batch with no prior epileptic episodes.

The following quote was taken from this thread

http://www.bluelight.org/vb/threads/676090-Mushrooms-Subthread-Seizures-amp-Blackouts

surrealthoughts said-

"my friend and i were hanging out when we heard a bang. i went inside to discover my brother had passed out and cut himself quite bad. he can't remember why or how. when i saw this i had a couple of seizures, next to my brother then went out to my friend and dropped in front of him and had another one. brief (eyes rolling into head, body at contorted angles). i also started tripping really hard again. i was fine until i saw my brother bleeding quite badly (among other things). i could never work out why he passed out. on the shroomery it was recommended low blood sugar. one common theme in all of this tho is the pot smoking. i have no psy. problems, my friend however (who did not seizure) developed some after this quite intense trip. my bro is fine also (but not too keen on shrooms).
my bro may have passed out also because the he had fresh homegrown mushrooms which may have been rotting a small bit. that is another guess. anyway just be aware that it can happen. "

 

[Frydea]

Interesting, I've noticed this trend as well. I had a seizure like convulsion episode the last time I did shrooms. I attributed it to simply being overwhelmed and panicking, but who knows. I've never had anything to that extent happen before.

 

[Solipsis]

Many years we believed they were physically benign? And now came an era in which rotten mushrooms are in abundance? I think that it occasionally happened before just like it occasionally happens now, and AFAIK also on synthetic psychedelics. Maybe you just became aware of it relatively recently and are now seeing it a lot more, like I said earlier: selective perception skewing your perspective.

Who knows, perhaps biologically degraded mushrooms may contain chemically modified alkaloids with other twisted neurological effects because the 'mutant alkaloids' are modulating the standard effects... but that would seem like an added complication on top of the whole phenomenon of seizures happening from psychedelics... just like stomach upset is normal (even if a LOT more common than getting seizures from trips) even for non-rotten fresh healthy mushrooms, but if you do have rotten mushrooms you can probably sure expect a lot MORE stomach issues as a complication.
I don't think that it means the whole entire cause should be mistaken for the complication.

Thats my opinion.

 

[Seattle_Stranger]

I had what I think is a seizure on mushrooms a few years ago. I've eaten these same shrooms out of this same bag a few times before, all with very strong but clean expected psilocybin effects however always with marked anxiety. One time I ate 3g and had a particularly strong effect, lots of visuals, racing/looping thoughts but somehow less anxiety that usual. I was laying on the couch horizontally for a good hour or so, maybe longer, and when I got up from the couch and walked into the kitchen, about 30 seconds later as I was trying to tell my friend "Dude, I'm trippin' balls, I'm going to go lay down in bed"...he said I just blanked out mid-sentence and hit the floor like a lifeless body. He said my eyes rolled back in my head, I was completely unresponsive, and stiff as a board. My friend, also tripping balls at this time, drags me to my room where my sleeping girlfriend was and flopped me onto my bed and muttered "He just passed out". My girlfriend, my friend and my roommate all were throwing water on me and smacking me around trying to snap me out of it, but it wasn't having any effect.

I suddenly came to, sat straight up gasping for air, heart beating 10000 mph, sweat absolutely pouring from every inch of my body and a -completely- blank mind state. I had no sense of self, time, space, anything at all. I couldn't recognize where I was, who I was or who these people were, but I had this little tiny glimmer of what resembled a memory very far in the back of my head that knew what was happening, but it was hard to hang onto this fleeting memory. I was almost certain that I had died, this is hell, and I had all these horrible feelings of how I wish I could apologize to my mother for doing this to myself. My entire reality was spinning, I couldn't focus on anything without it completely distorting and melting, and there simply are no english words to describe what else was happening to me. Then in tiny waves, I started to get this euphoria, a euphoria that was nothing more than a familiar feeling slowly poking it's way into my head that resembled the reality I was used to living in. It would come and go, I would just start losing touch with reality again, dive into hell, slowly start to remember reality again, get pulled back to hell again, over and over as if I was literally fighting to remember my life and consciousness, but this alternate force was fighting back. When I would come into reality enough to communicate, I remember asking them to put on familiar music that I grew up with and even tried comforting them telling them that "I'm just tripping the fuck out, I will be OK". Finally, I started winning and reality started piecing itself back together, I started recognizing my roommate and girlfriend, started to recognize the music, and started to come back into what simply felt like a VERY strong trip.

After my grasp on reality was firm enough, I was able to get up out of bed and believe it or not, had a fantastic rest of the night! I enjoyed the insane visuals going on, the unbelievable euphoria I was feeling from realizing that "I'm not dead!!", and just hung out laughing about what happened. Then my buddy started getting all weird like he was having a bad trip, and I actually sat there and talked him down....having just been unconscious barely an hour ago. My body and mind, albeit drained and tired, felt absolutely fine. Next day was great, awesome afterglow.

Does that sound like a seizure? Or something else? I've never had anything like this happen to me again and I gobble mushrooms constantly, they're borderline addictive to me at this point.


Funny thing is, right around that time, the same thing happened to two of my friends on separate occasions, once right in front of me while we were on another mushroom trip! I caught his head from hitting the floor after he stood up from his chair and uttered "Guys I don't feel good" and then just went stiff and flopped over. He came out of it rather quickly and didn't really trip out, which made me wonder because clearly this wasn't a high-dosage thing. I don't think these were all from the same batch. Since then, I've had countless glowing experiences on mushrooms, however I NEVER eat more than a gram or two at once, I slowly dose over the course of the entire night and build up.

Very interesting observation OP.

 

[Solipsis]

By the way I bet in religious settings seizures were probably seen as being allowed access to some divine (although floppy) state, and that's why they may not be known as dangers. I've personally only had seizures on LSD and nitrous.. and that made me more sensitive to such fits on psychedelics in combinations with other drugs if the combo includes nitrous, but apart from that I have not had any fits again after that... (nearly 10 years ago now).
But yeah I would say it's kind of difficult to make something of this and integrate it into the image we have of the physical safety of psychedelics like mushrooms.

I think there are also other disturbing neurological phenomenon that are relatively rare to happen but can - I think - be produced on psychedelics like having your psyche split into two parts. Actually reading about some neurological phenomena Oliver Sacks describes in his popular science writing helped me connect some dots and makes me suspect that there are some similarities between unusual states of consciousness that can transiently be produced with psychedelics, and ones that are more chronic in cases of neurological disorders.

 

[al-laddin]

Funny thing is, right around that time, the same thing happened to two of my friends on separate occasions, once right in front of me while we were on another mushroom trip! I caught his head from hitting the floor after he stood up from his chair and uttered "Guys I don't feel good" and then just went stiff and flopped over. He came out of it rather quickly and didn't really trip out, which made me wonder because clearly this wasn't a high-dosage thing. I don't think these were all from the same batch. Since then, I've had countless glowing experiences on mushrooms, however I NEVER eat more than a gram or two at once, I slowly dose over the course of the entire night and build up.

Very interesting observation OP.

^^^ This .....I keep seeing these things happen in "waves"....do you not think its bizzare solipsis , that it seems to come in waves ? I dunno, there might be something to this..I find it strange and quite uncanny that it seems to happen this way.

Id like to know more about this neurological dyfunction that's brought on with psychedelic use. errr...maybe I don't lol

 

[Seattle_Stranger]

^^^ This .....I keep seeing these things happen in "waves"....do you not think its bizzare solipsis , that it seems to come in waves ? I dunno, there might be something to this..I find it strange and quite uncanny that it seems to happen this way.

Id like to know more about this neurological dyfunction that's brought on with psychedelic use. errr...maybe I don't lol

Getting a little deep here, but think about the realm of the universe that you open up and become exposed to when under the influence of psychedelics, especially natural ones. Perhaps there is some celestial variable that we could not even begin to comprehend causing this overload in our feeble little brains in the waves that you speak of?

 

[al-laddin]

Hmmm, I wasn't quite going so esoteric (I have no problem with that) but I was more referring to something like a contaminant that has not been identified , most likely biological like a parasite or some sort of microbe? I know you said that it wasn't from the same "batch" but perhaps the mushrooms came from the same initial source, be it a massive patch of cyans on woodchips or from the same growers contaminated grow set up? Maybe not contamination but certain levels of baeocystin perhaps cause adverse effects?

Think about this, if you smoke cannabis with high levels of THC and low CBD, youre likely to experience more anxiety and adverse effects. It doesn't matter HOW MUCH THC is in it it....this particular chemistry has to do with levels of compunds and how higher CBD cancels out THC.... PERHAPS baeocystin is responsible for some strange neurochemical adverse effects. I mean weve all heard that wood lovers are more likely to cause a stange paralysis effect sometimes...this ALSO often strikes out of no where to people who have been using muchrooms at all doses. I know cultivated cubensis have a low level of baoecystin but maybe once in awhile a batch could have higher levels causing these effects....maybe the levels of bao and psilo have something to do with canceling advesre effects. Or maybe this ay all be going on with an unidentified compound .....I know this may be far fetched but its just some shooting in the dark...

 

[perpetualdawn]

I think it's most likely simply a characteristic of psilocybin itself. We (humans) tend to look for a bad guy to explain the negative, so we can keep the thing we like untainted and I think that's what you might be doing Al-laddin! I don't think we need to introduce a contaminant or adulterant to explain the brain zaps or seizures, I bet it simply is something about the drug itself that it facilitates the conditions for vast networks in our brain to begin to electrically pulse in sync.

I've had the brain zaps before, and had no idea what they were before coming on BL because no one I knew had experienced them. I've only experienced them on mushrooms. They definitely felt a bit close to what I think a seizure might feel like.

 

[Ismene]

Difficult if not impossible for doctors to diagnose "seizure" so it's a good bet 95% of the "seizure" diagnoses are wrong. Probably just panic attacks when people can't handle their high.

 

[al-laddin]

Ismene, I would love to believe that but they are definitely at VERY LEAST "seizure like", as in convulsion, eys rolling back, etc

 

[Hecticus]

Sort of unrelated. Ive seen my friend drop 10 minutes after a cone. He's body was contorted but it was not a full blown seizure. He reported an intense visual experience after he came to. It lasted 2 minutes.
Arn't these sometimes associated with "peak experiences"?