• N&PD Moderators: Skorpio | thegreenhand

Shouldn't gabapentin attenuate the effects of other drugs?

DeathIndustrial88

Bluelighter
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"Gabapentin increases non-synaptic GABA responses from neuronal tissues in vitro. In vitro, gabapentin reduces the release of several mono-amine neurotransmitters."



Shouldn't this mean that gabapentin should reduce euphoria from stimulants/opioids?



What causes the euphoria from gabapentin then? It at least gives some in the beginning or at least a mood lift.
But after several months on it, I'm starting to wonder if it effects the weak dopamine release from buprenorphine? Making opioids cravings worse?
 
"Gabapentin increases non-synaptic GABA responses from neuronal tissues in vitro. In vitro, gabapentin reduces the release of several mono-amine neurotransmitters."



Shouldn't this mean that gabapentin should reduce euphoria from stimulants/opioids?



What causes the euphoria from gabapentin then? It at least gives some in the beginning or at least a mood lift.
But after several months on it, I'm starting to wonder if it effects the weak dopamine release from buprenorphine? Making opioids cravings worse?
It gives a really good mood lift, until u become addicted to it. Horrible wds, I'd recommend to use it in moderation. Just like any other drooq.....
 
It gives a really good mood lift, until u become addicted to it. Horrible wds, I'd recommend to use it in moderation. Just like any other drooq.....
Oh I'm already dependent on it.

In the beginning it seemed great. No more fibro/depression associated body aches & pains. More energy and more creative drive. Seemed to have synergy with my other meds.

Now it does nothing but stop it's own withdrawal & some times makes my balance worse. And that's about it.

And now I'm curious if it's ruining the weak opioid effect from my bupe. Which is not a good thing.

EDIT : Thought I'd mention too that the good effects I got from gabapentin lasted quite awhile. I'd say about 2-3 months of daily use. But then it just disappeared altogether.
It must have been increasing neurotransmitters some how to have effected my mood, energy and creativity levels.

But I've also read that acute buprenorphine usage is associated with dopamine release, where as chronic buprenorphine usage begins to lower dopamine.
So there's probably several factors as to why I feel the way I do.

I was just curious about this though.

The same thing with benzos. They're life savers for my panic attacks but I can't always understand the appeal as to why people will pop them "for fun".
Technically benzo's also lower neurotransmitters, which should make any other drugs you take less euphoric and this has been my experience.

However, I have had paradoxical effects from benzos where I became kind of euphoric/social and relaxed.

Seems odd and complex.
 
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Now it does nothing but stop it's own withdrawal & some times makes my balance worse. And that's about it.

And now I'm curious if it's ruining the weak opioid effect from my bupe. Which is not a good thing.
Lol same shit happened to me, I'd wake up instantly at 6am, my body asking for gaba with nasty side fx(headache, depression etc,) thank God I'm off it.
I don't think it should interact with ur buprenorphine at all tho.
 
Lol same shit happened to me, I'd wake up instantly at 6am, my body asking for gaba with nasty side fx(headache, depression etc,) thank God I'm off it.
I don't think it should interact with ur buprenorphine at all tho.
Would you say you feel better now that you're off of it?

Did you ever try lowering your tolerance to see if it would become helpful again?


I ask because I read this..


And became curious if gabapentin would stop this weak release or attentuate it altogether.
I'm betting this weak dopamine release is what gives bupe most of it anti-depressant & stimulating qualities, along with kappa receptor antagonism possibly.
 
Would you say you feel better now that you're off of it?

Did you ever try lowering your tolerance to see if it would become helpful again?


I ask because I read this..


And became curious if gabapentin would stop this weak release or attentuate it altogether.
I'm betting this weak dopamine release is what gives bupe most of it anti-depressant & stimulating qualities, along with kappa receptor antagonism possibly.
Man, I feel SO MUCH BETTER WITHOUT IT. It wasn't helping at all in the end. I was only taking 600mg a day but the wds were brutal. A good thing is that they only last a week. U would recommend u to taper and stop doing it.✌
 
Man, I feel SO MUCH BETTER WITHOUT IT. It wasn't helping at all in the end. I was only taking 600mg a day but the wds were brutal. A good thing is that they only last a week. U would recommend u to taper and stop doing it.✌
Thanks for your feedback! :) I appreciate it!

I will definitely think about this & coming off of it.

You're not kidding that the withdrawals can be hellish. I've been through them a handful of times now since I've started taking it and it almost feels like a moderate opioid-like withdrawal mixed with a benzo withdrawal. Felt all that body pain rushing right back, hot flashes/sweats and low energy/mood. But hell, I feel the same way while taking it some times too. lol
 
What causes the euphoria from gabapentin then? It at least gives some in the beginning or at least a mood lift.
But after several months on it, I'm starting to wonder if it effects the weak dopamine release from buprenorphine? Making opioids cravings worse?
I have to admit that my grasp of pharmacology is pretty poor and that I would probably place in the bottom 50% of Bluelight if we were all tested for neuroscience literacy. But I still have a couple of thoughts on this topic and I might as well share them regardless....

First off, the quote you give only says that gabapentin was found to reduce monoamine release in vitro. On its own, this doesn't rule out the possibility of GBP showing a different effect (or even the opposite) when it is studied in vivo and the drug is actually processed by a living organism.

Secondly, the current consensus opinion seems to be that gabapentinoids produce their effects (including psychoactive ones) by inhibiting certain voltage-gated calcium channels, not through any direct activity on the GABA receptors or the monoamines.

And yet, for many people, these drugs still do appear to have dopaminergic/GABAergic effects (at least subjectively). Apparently, the Ca-channel inhibition triggers a "cascade" of activity in the brain, producing dramatic "downstream" effects through the indirect modulation of receptor sites along the way.

GBP is actually fast-acting in strictly pharmacodynamic terms, with the onset of action taking place in <1hr. But the pleasurable effects (such as they are) take another few hours to kick in, as we all know. And that fact – at least IME – matches up with the "downstream"/"cascade" understanding of the drug.

FWIW, though, I never liked to combine opiates with gabapentinoids. I wouldn't say that they "attenuated" the overall effect, since I had some scary near-ODs with that combo... But the intense headspace of GBP/PGB tended to overwhelm the more subtle euphoria of opiates.
 
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I think a lot of the misconceptions about Gabapentinoids are wrapped up in basic misunderstandings about how they work. It's totally understandable. They are often erroneously grouped in with drugs like Benzodiazepines, Barbiturates and Alcohol, but they actually work by inhibiting Voltage-Gated Calcium Channels. The truth is that Gabapentinoids are poorly understood even by medical science. You'll notice in much of the literature that words like "supposed" and "alleged" and "believed" are very common.

I don't think they really know enough about them to make such precise commentary. I am always interested in discussion on the topic though, as Gabapentinoids have factored pretty heavily into my life. I abused them pretty consistently as an Opiate addict and even now in sobriety I take them everyday, but basically as-prescribed. I get 3 800mgs a day and on a fucked up day I might take 4, but even that is a rare occasion these days.

Part of why they are so interesting to me, is that virtually every drug, I can't control my intake with. Alcohol, Benzodiazepines, Opioids... I'm fucked. Marijuana and Gabapentin, for some crazy reason, I can maintain myself on without lying to either myself, others or the universe. I know I'm rambling now, I just hope you guys find what you're looking for.

I'm going to move this to Neuroscience, as I feel it's a little bit specific for our purposes here in OD
 
My pharmacology skills are pretty poor too @JTemperance.

But I appreciate everyone's responses! And enjoy the learning & the topic in general. So thank you!

I think a lot of the misconceptions about Gabapentinoids are wrapped up in basic misunderstandings about how they work. It's totally understandable. They are often erroneously grouped in with drugs like Benzodiazepines, Barbiturates and Alcohol, but they actually work by inhibiting Voltage-Gated Calcium Channels. The truth is that Gabapentinoids are poorly understood even by medical science. You'll notice in much of the literature that words like "supposed" and "alleged" and "believed" are very common.

I don't think they really know enough about them to make such precise commentary. I am always interested in discussion on the topic though, as Gabapentinoids have factored pretty heavily into my life. I abused them pretty consistently as an Opiate addict and even now in sobriety I take them everyday, but basically as-prescribed. I get 3 800mgs a day and on a fucked up day I might take 4, but even that is a rare occasion these days.

Part of why they are so interesting to me, is that virtually every drug, I can't control my intake with. Alcohol, Benzodiazepines, Opioids... I'm fucked. Marijuana and Gabapentin, for some crazy reason, I can maintain myself on without lying to either myself, others or the universe. I know I'm rambling now, I just hope you guys find what you're looking for.

I'm going to move this to Neuroscience, as I feel it's a little bit specific for our purposes here in OD
Thanks Keif!

You're correct, as every article or research paper I try to read always mentions that they don't even know the exact mechanisms by which gabapentin works completely.

It does make me wonder though, if they don't how what all it does, if there's a possibility of health issues arising with long term use or even after a few uses.


I know gabapentin is similar to baclofen, though not quite. But baclofen has shown some use in 'treating addiction', by interacting with other drug's ability to release dopamine & produce euphoria. Though both are capable of euphoria on their own. It's quite complex and fascinating.
 
Gabapentin has rather complex effects. Based on some readings, I dont expect it to suppress the rewarding effects of opioids, but I also would not be very surprised if some more complex interaction did suppress this effect. I will explain what I know, but unfortunately the nitty details have not yet been worked out. I do hope to illustrate some of the complexity of gabapentin's mechanism of action though,. I am going to post some background on neurotransmission for context in italics below, feel free to skip it if it is too basic.

Neurons are at their core excitable cells. That means that they pump ions in and out of the cell to maintain a charge gradient (like pumping water into a water tower, so that it has pressure to provide water to houses). The net sum of positive (potassium, and sodium with charges of +1. Calcium has a charge of +2, but so little of it is in a cell, and what is in a cell is bound by proteins, that it can be ignored when considering the voltage of a cell) and negative ions (chloride with a charge of -1) The ions that drive this force are sodium ions, which get pumped out of the cell, and potassium ions that get pumped into a cell. They both have a positive charge, but their gradients oppose one another (opening a sodium channel causes ions to flow into the cell raising the voltage, and opening a potassium channel causes potassium ions to rush out, decreasing the voltage of a cell). Cells are normally kept at a voltage much lower than the exterior (what is known as a polarized state). Neurons primarily have their voltage externally effected by ligand gated ion channels, mainly the inotropic glutamate receptors (sodium channels that increase the voltage of the cell when opened), and GABA A and glycine receptors (which are chloride channels that allow chloride into a cell, decreasing its voltage, known as hyperpolarization).

Excitable cells have a type of sodium channel called voltage gated sodium channels. These open when the voltage of a cell exceeds a certain threshold, further increasing the voltage of a cell. This results in the very quick increase in voltage where the cell becomes depolarized, which means that it has equal amounts of sodium inside and outside of the cell and the intracellular voltage resembles the extracellular voltage). Now, these sodium channels have a feature where they plug themselves up pretty soon after being opened, allowing the sodium/potassium transporter (think of it like an always on sump pump) to remove the sodium ions and repolarize the cell.

Now voltage gated calcium channels are at the end of this cascade. They only open at the peak of depolarization and allow calcium ions to rush in. Calcium ions are kept at such a low level that their function is not related to changing the voltage of a cell, but rather causing protein interactions. Since calcium ions have a charge of +2, many proteins exist with negatively charged binding pockets that will interact with the positive charges of the calcium ions. A relevant one is called calmodulin. Calmodulin has two binding sites for calcium at each end, and will interact with proteins when calcium is bound. In neurons the calcium-bound calmodulin will function to pull vesicles (organelles made of the same lipids as a cell membrane that contain cargo; in the case of neurons vesicles contain neurotransmitters) into contact with the cell membranes, which then fuse (the same concept as two soap bubbles fusing into one when they touch). This causes the neurotransmitters to be released from the cell where they are free to bind to receptors on nearby neurons (they are released at synapses, so dont have far to travel to a nearby receptor).

Now I have not mentioned G- protein coupled receptors (dopamine, opioids, serotonin) or steroid receptors, and will not cover them here in great detail. These function by causing cascades of protein modification that can either directly open ion channels (mu opioid receptors will open a potassium channel to hyperpolarize the cell), or to change the makeup of the cell and regulate its excitability.


Now gabapentin inhibits the action of these voltage gated calcium channels, so decreases the release of any neurotransmitter that the cells would be releasing. It does not actually block the calcium channels (like many other ion channel acting drugs such as lidocaine), but it interferes with a regulatory subunit of these channels, causing fewer to be on the cell surface (decreasing effects), and more specifically decreasing their spatial interactions with NMDA receptors (which are a subtype of inotropic glutamate receptors). Because the brain has a larger proportion of excitatory synapses (glutamate releasing/responding) this overall dampens neurotransmission, as well as specifically decreasing NMDA receptor mediated transmission.

Now for the tricky part! The effects of gabapentin are not homogenous across the brain. The brain is composed of many circuits consisting of glutamatergic and GABAergic neurons that are modulated by other neurotransmitters (ie serotonin, dopamine, and norepinephrine). These circuits will have net effect that can are either excitatory or inhibitory. The net effect of the circuit is dependent on the order of GABA and glutamate neurons, and can be thought of like multiplying by negative one or positive one (with glutamate receptors being positive one and GABA receptors being negative one). A simple example would be a GABA receptor synapsing onto another GABA receptor synapsing onto a target. Activation of that first GABA receptor would inhibit the next one in series, causing a net relief of inhibition (-1 x -1 = +1). A gabapentin relevant example would be a glutamate neuron synapsing onto a GABAergic neuron (+1 x -1 = -1). Inhibiting the firing of that glutamate neuron with gabapentin would cause relief of the GABAergic inhibition (-1(from gabapentin's effects) x +1 x -1 = +1). Thusly gabapentin has opposing effects in different circuits in the brain.

Opioids actually exert a similar circuit specific effect. They inhibit GABAergic neurons in the ventral tegmental area (VTA) of the brain (processes reward), which is where dopamine releasing neurons lie (which feed onto the nucleus accumbens). This inhibition of GABAergic tone (-1 x -1 = +1) increases reward associated dopamine signaling.

Now, there is a paper talking about pregabalin's rewarding effects (and these drugs have the same mechanism of action at voltage gated calcium channels) via conditioned place preference (a measure of how rewarding/abusable a drug is based placing a rodent in a white box and giving them a drug, then placing them in a little hallway between a white and black box (usually is switched each assay to make sure rodents dont just prefer white or black) and seeing what room they typically enter. The more rewarding a drug is, the more often the rodent will enter the box where they were high on said drug. This effect has been shown to require dopamine signaling onto the nucleus accumbens from the VTA (specifically disrupting VTA to nucleus accumbens synapses prevents rewarding drugs from forming a place preference).

Pregabalin does produce a conditioned place preference, which leads the authors to conclude that it results in net dopamine release in that circuit. Unfortunately I cannot find a paper demonstrating any circuit level evidence for that, based on their conclusion (it is in the journal scientific reports, which is a respectable mid tier journal, so I am more ok taking the claims at face value), gabapentin will likely not blunt too much of the opioid euphoria. Of course this conclusion is totally reductionist, and other circuits in the brain could interfere with pleasurable feelings from opioid signaling, which would be much more difficult to tease apart.

Definitely feel free to ask for clarification, this post got way fucking bigger than I anticipated.

Paper cited below
 
These circuits will have net effect that can are either excitatory or inhibitory. The net effect of the circuit is dependent on the order of GABA and glutamate neurons, and can be thought of like multiplying by negative one or positive one (with glutamate receptors being positive one and GABA receptors being negative one). A simple example would be a GABA receptor synapsing onto another GABA receptor synapsing onto a target. Activation of that first GABA receptor would inhibit the next one in series, causing a net relief of inhibition (-1 x -1 = +1). A gabapentin relevant example would be a glutamate neuron synapsing onto a GABAergic neuron (+1 x -1 = -1). Inhibiting the firing of that glutamate neuron with gabapentin would cause relief of the GABAergic inhibition (-1(from gabapentin's effects) x +1 x -1 = +1). Thusly gabapentin has opposing effects in different circuits in the brain.
i dont have the literature on hand at the moment, but i think i saw some work about how the timing of firing within these circuits is an important consideration too. for example, the synchronicity of particular populations of neurons may be just as important as if this population is an excitatory/inhibitory ciruit
 
I think a lot of the misconceptions about Gabapentinoids are wrapped up in basic misunderstandings about how they work. It's totally understandable. They are often erroneously grouped in with drugs like Benzodiazepines, Barbiturates and Alcohol, but they actually work by inhibiting Voltage-Gated Calcium Channels. The truth is that Gabapentinoids are poorly understood even by medical science. You'll notice in much of the literature that words like "supposed" and "alleged" and "believed" are very common.

I don't think they really know enough about them to make such precise commentary. I am always interested in discussion on the topic though, as Gabapentinoids have factored pretty heavily into my life. I abused them pretty consistently as an Opiate addict and even now in sobriety I take them everyday, but basically as-prescribed. I get 3 800mgs a day and on a fucked up day I might take 4, but even that is a rare occasion these days.

Part of why they are so interesting to me, is that virtually every drug, I can't control my intake with. Alcohol, Benzodiazepines, Opioids... I'm fucked. Marijuana and Gabapentin, for some crazy reason, I can maintain myself on without lying to either myself, others or the universe. I know I'm rambling now, I just hope you guys find what you're looking for.

I'm going to move this to Neuroscience, as I feel it's a little bit specific for our purposes here in OD
Not only are the mechanism of action of specific drugs poorly understood but etiology of illness oftentimes gets reduced to a single variable. For much of the 20th century typically a bacterium which led to the disastrous overprescribing of antibiotics and in the 21st century it's a virus with similar unknowns and potentially disastrous unintended consequences.

Health is of no concern to modern medicine which is more accurately a sickness care system designed to maximize profits of shareholders and corporate officers of an industry which is fully one quarter of the US economy

The value of a systems approach is arrogantly ignored except in the most cursory way by your primary care provider who despite being tasked with oversight to avoid adverse reactions from drugs, surgeries and procedures prescribed by the specialists on your treatment "team" is often too overworked and the lowest paid (few surgeries and little glamour in Family or Internal Medicine)

Of course what gets passed over in all of this is you. Because viewing you as an entire unique person is not how the system is set up, and things such as diet, lifestyle, exercise, relationships and mental & spiritual health are of little interest
 
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i dont have the literature on hand at the moment, but i think i saw some work about how the timing of firing within these circuits is an important consideration too. for example, the synchronicity of particular populations of neurons may be just as important as if this population is an excitatory/inhibitory ciruit
If you come across the literature again, would you be able to decipher from it when a good time to take gabapentin would be, so that it doesn't take away the stimulation from my buprenorphine?
I'd appreciate it, but I understand that's a complex question to answer, so I'm not expecting much, but if you happen to figure it out, I would love to know! :)
 
Shouldn't this mean that gabapentin should reduce euphoria from stimulants/opioids?
I suppose but I find that gabapentin enhances most anything I consume drug wise. From crack, opioids, weed, kratom alcohol hell the list goes on but basically across the spectrum (ime). Same with any other gabapentinoid I have used.
 
after a few months on it
This may be why I haven't noticed the opposite effects, then, maybe. Using on occasion may have afforded my experience with gabapentinoids and other substances.
I wonder (with tolerances) if raising the dose of the gabapentin would still give that "enhancement" of other drugs. I know the weight would get ridiculous fairly quickly and it would become a freakin' nightmare. I would opt for mgs over grams anyday but that is me.... <3
 
If you come across the literature again, would you be able to decipher from it when a good time to take gabapentin would be, so that it doesn't take away the stimulation from my buprenorphine?
I'd appreciate it, but I understand that's a complex question to answer, so I'm not expecting much, but if you happen to figure it out, I would love to know! :)
This synchronicity I was talking about is on the order of seconds, maybe even milliseconds. I was just musing on an interesting tidbit of neural encoding to expand Skorpio’s (-1)(1) analogy

So unfortunately there’s no real relevance when it comes to timing drugs for maximal benefits or anything like that
 
"Gabapentin increases non-synaptic GABA responses from neuronal tissues in vitro. In vitro, gabapentin reduces the release of several mono-amine neurotransmitters."



Shouldn't this mean that gabapentin should reduce euphoria from stimulants/opioids?



What causes the euphoria from gabapentin then? It at least gives some in the beginning or at least a mood lift.
But after several months on it, I'm starting to wonder if it effects the weak dopamine release from buprenorphine? Making opioids cravings worse?

Not at all. I find it actually potentiates some (opioids. benzos, caffeine).
 
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