Should dxm be avoided now it has been shown to promote coronavirus growth?

[Tieeurrrop]

I have just started a kratom break and was thinking of taking a short course of dxm as I have found it a very useful otc anti depressant/mildly recreational in low doses which help replace the kratom high and of course the well documented lowering of tolerance benefits as a double whammy effect.

But I had no idea about this new study til I just read it that it will encourage corona to grow. So what do you reckon?

The issue is they say you might feel fine and already have it so maybe you could be feeling normal yet it was latent and taking dxm would make it 'full blown' or something?

Is it cause for concern/cause to avoid it? I will say in terms of exposure I have no interaction with other people apart from when I go to the shops to buy food at which time I wear a face mask and wash hands often. I was taking kratom confidently since they say it was actually said to be a preventative, with the chloroquinines, (not that I was using that as an excuse to take it, I would take it anyway!) and now they are saying dxm has the opposite effect and indeed promotes it.

 

[jackie jones]

Source?

 

[dopamimetic]

Found it. Here, it is about sigma receptors and indeed DXM behaves like a COVID-19 promoting agent.

Molecules that target the Sigma1 and Sigma2 receptors perturb the virus through different mechanisms than the translation inhibitors, potentially including cell stress response52. These molecules are also active against other aminergic receptors, but the only ones shared among all of them are the Sigma1 and Sigma2 receptors (Fig. 6f), into which these drugs can be readily modeled (Extended Data Fig. 10a). For instance, the antipsychotic haloperidol inhibits the dopamine D2 and histamine H1 receptors, while clemastine and cloperastine are themselves antihistamines; each also are Sigma receptor ligands with antiviral activity (Fig. 6c). Conversely, the antipsychotic olanzapine, which also inhibits H1 and D2 receptors, has little Sigma receptor activity and is not antiviral (Extended Data Fig. 10b). Which of the Sigma receptors might be most responsible for activity remains uncertain, as does the role of pharmacologically-related targets, such as EBP and related sterol isomerases, whose ligand recognition resembles those of the Sigma receptors. Intriguingly, the Sigma1 benzomorphan agonist, dextromethorphan, actually has pro-viral activity (Fig. 6g), further supporting the role of these receptors in viral infection. Overall, two features merit emphasis. First, several of the Sigma active molecules, like clemastine, cloperastine, and progesterone, are approved drugs with a long history in human therapy. Many other widely-used drugs, active on Sigma receptors, remain to be tested; and indeed, several such as astemizole, which we find to be a 95 nM Sigma2 receptor ligand (Extended Data Fig. 11), verapamil, and amiodarone, have been reported by others to be active in viral replication assays, though this has not been linked to their Sigma receptor activity53,54. Second, the Sigma ligands have a clear separation between antiviral and cytotoxic effects (Fig. 6b and c), and ligands like PB28 have substantial selectivity for the Sigma receptors versus side-effect targets, like the hERG ion channel. Indeed, the lack of selectivity of chloroquine and hydroxychloroquine versus hERG (Fig. 6h) and other off-targets (Extended Data Fig. 12) may be related to the cardiac adverse drug reactions55 that have limited their use.

 

[jackie jones]

Cheers, @dopamimetic

Although not near the top of my list, I have always felt DXM to have unique psychedelic features. Namely, it's ability to uncover hidden memories. It is not a functional psychedelic by any means, but I utilize it perhaps every couple years. Complete darkness and silence are key. Solely thinking. It does have decent CEVs. It is a controlled substance in many countries, which tends to give a chemical a sort of validation, which of course is not the truth we seek.

I can wait. DXM is not going anywhere.

 

[dopamimetic]

@jackie jones Indeed, I find DXM to be something unique too - while I certainly find the arylcyclohexylamine dissociatives like K to be more warm and bright overall, they too lead more to escapism and don't have the potential of DXM to unlock suppressed or otherwise hidden memories. It was my very first chemical and already then, over 13 years ago, it came with a sense of nostalgia - one of the most impressive trips, not of overwhelming intensity but because it was so distinctive, seemingly easy yet completely non-graspable, was when I watched a historical movie that played on board of a sailing ship on an old tube TV on a maybe moderate 2nd plateau trip ... the whole movie had a strong feeling and even taste (in a synesthetic meaning) of nostalgia - I assume that this probably won't trigger any memory in most, and I really can't explain better for now but it might be related to the feature of uncovering hidden memories.

But thought that DXM was, curiously, in most western countries at least, and in opposition to the other moderate strength cough suppressant codeine, an OTC drug due to the fact that it had been approved for ages now and restrictions were much lighter back then. Just Switzerland made it prescription only the last year, partially because of so-called abuse but the main reason was that codeine had been the same category.

I am curious about the sigma receptor relation, as DXM appears to be a decent sigma1 agonist and a moderate sigma2 one, many other dissociatives together with other recreational drugs share thus affinity but it's said that sigma agonism alone wouldn't have real effects on its own - another source, I thought the wikipedia article to the sigmaergic noscapine, lists it was being abused similarly to DXM. We have the antidepressant fluvoxamine which has benefits for OCD and is said to be superior than other antidepressants for certain types of depression because of the sigma agonism, the antagonist sertraline had horribly bad effects and we have pre-087 (which I never managed to acquire due to lack of EU resellers) that is said to be antidepressant and reinforcing. Venlafaxine gets potentiated by sigma agonists and it + DXM make a nice combo.. Yet is it all about sigma1 while DXM is also a sigma2 agonist.

Yeah, DXM has decent visuals sometimes they can be more or less directly influenced by willpower, yet aren't one to one changing with what's in your mind but more so if you want to see something. Like a new, dissoverse-only sense! I could construct random objects up to the interior of a whole spaceship - OEVs at nighttime - but again all just in black & white as I since many years am somehow unable to get any more colorful visuals, from most substances like K even no visuals at all just yesterday 1cP-LSD (+ little DXM) gave me full on LSD optics, very unlike the red-yellow-green morphing ones of mushrooms but absolutely like on many LSD pictures so I guess they were the full deal and truly amazing, a hyperspace intertwined with our reality, like a hypermatrix made out of weird little gears, locks and puzzle pieces of fern.

Unfortunately DXM also has a distinct visual synergistic feeling to me, one that I don't like. It feels fluidly solid, like quicksilver ... in early times it felt more like syrup I guess, but the quicksilver is really annoying. I truly miss the nostalgia and overall magic feelings of my youth ... yet absolutely no auditory hallucinations aka "voices" even with DXM + 1cP-LSD + morphine on comedown.

Don't let doctors to fool you into so-called "paranoid schizophrenia" and don't take antipsychotics when they don't feel right. The theory is flawed as hell. They think we had a neurotransmitter specific for psychosis, and that it was either DMT, a sigma agonist or a NMDA antagonist and all is wrong. Psychosis is probably a disruption of processing, something which can happen in 10'000 different ways (like if your computer wouldn't blue screen but continue to work in a corrupted state, leading to e.g. pixel / block mess on TV etc..) and certainly we don't have a specific transmitter for crazyness...! Man, that old war on drugs. Sigh.

 

[allone]

oh fuck! i was going to use it to get off opiates. but from what i can gather, it seems it can only be bad for someone who already contracted the virus. so i guess you are taking a chance without knowing. do you think its too risky at this point for me to even consider taking it, in i mean, moderate dose? im not really seeking psychedelic thrills and kicks like most people. i generally use well mannered, decent dosing. i only need bits of it to keep off opiates is all. any suggestions, recommendations, thanks!

 

[Tieeurrrop]

Guys can you stay on topic plz? I was asking about the health risk associated with covid not how DXM feels when you take it, save that for trip reports.

Allone, same man, I can't stand dissos or psychedelics in general but low dose therapeutic dxm I have found quite useful and like you say (for me only kratom) it is great tool to have to replace use of other tolerance/withdrawal inducing substances as it isn't physically addictive itself.

I find the ssri aspect and I suppose the nmda part too are good for the antidepressant effects. For me only 60-90 mg is good for this as it is mostly ssri feeling with a tiny bit of dissociation.

I read that it is good all round for quitting other drugs in general, not just opiates.

I can take it or leave it really and if it is a health risk I would leave it without thinking twice.

I mean that could easily be replaced by some other distraction like playing computer games or something, really not a big deal to me.

 

[jackie jones]

Venlafaxine gets potentiated by sigma agonists and it + DXM make a nice combo.

Say what now?

 

[dopamimetic]

Say what now?

That, maybe, sigma agonism is nice or is nice together with a SNRI.

 

[polymath]

Venlafaxine gets potentiated by sigma agonists and it + DXM make a nice combo.. Yet is it all about sigma1 while DXM is also a sigma2 agonist.

Some people can get a serotonin syndrome from combining DXM with serotonin reuptake inhibitors, venlafaxine included.

 

[dopamimetic]

Some people can get a serotonin syndrome from combining DXM with serotonin reuptake inhibitors, venlafaxine included.

Is that really true? I know, they say it and I would definitely not recommend to try such things but to all what I have learnt do reuptake inhibitors and releasers complete for one binding site at the transporter and usually does the inhibitor win...

Serotonin syndrom is weird. Usually it involves a MAO inhibitor but under strange conditions even a single SSRI can induce it

 

[polymath]

Is that really true? I know, they say it and I would definitely not recommend to try such things but to all what I have learnt do reuptake inhibitors and releasers complete for one binding site at the transporter and usually does the inhibitor win...

Serotonin syndrom is weird. Usually it involves a MAO inhibitor but under strange conditions even a single SSRI can induce it

I don't get a serotonin syndome from that combination, either, but I wouldn't have tried that the first time had I known about the risk.

 

[allone]

Some people can get a serotonin syndrome from combining DXM with serotonin reuptake inhibitors, venlafaxine included.

can someone get serotonin syndrome from mixing DXM and suboxone? suboxone feels like it inhibits serotonin for me. not sure to what extent as it is primary opioid

 

[polymath]

can someone get serotonin syndrome from mixing DXM and suboxone? suboxone feels like it inhibits serotonin for me. not sure to what extent as it is primary opioid

That doesn't seem to be possible

The scoop on serotonin syndrome

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Certain pain medications are reuptake inhibitors. Tramadol, methadone, meperidine and fentanyl cause serotonin toxicity, but morphine analogues such as morphine, codeine, oxycodone and buprenorphine do not, as they are weaker inhibitors of the serotonin transporter.

 

[dopamimetic]

can someone get serotonin syndrome from mixing DXM and suboxone? suboxone feels like it inhibits serotonin for me. not sure to what extent as it is primary opioid

It appears to be possible. Source (Yet isn't this something you will just get, with careful titration you'll find out your individual sensitivity, things like cold sweats, increased temperature, racing thoughts - sense of overload, toxicity are warning signs but there are probably more.)

And here are some affinities and the SERT to NET ratio of DXM, methadon, fentanyl, pethidine, (O-DSMT)-tramadol, fluoxetine, venlafaxine (strangely not morphine, maybe cause it is too weak there).

 

[polymath]

It appears to be possible. Source (Yet isn't this something you will just get, with careful titration you'll find out your individual sensitivity, things like cold sweats, increased temperature, racing thoughts - sense of overload, toxicity are warning signs but there are probably more.)

And here are some affinities and the SERT to NET ratio of DXM, methadon, fentanyl, pethidine, (O-DSMT)-tramadol, fluoxetine, venlafaxine (strangely not morphine, maybe cause it is too weak there).

Then that has to be caused by norbuprenorphine or some other metabolite, because at least Wikipedia says buprenorphine's affinity to SERT is >10000 nM. There's also a slight chance that the person in that case report had also consumed something else and didn't tell that.

 

[dopamimetic]

That would be my guess too, that these cases of isolated serotonin syndrome just had causes that were outside of what was anslysed.

 

[jackie jones]

Serotonin syndrom is weird. Usually it involves a MAO inhibitor but under strange conditions even a single SSRI can induce it

My lord, I have never been so sick. Simply floored. Nausea.

This is part of the reason that I avoid SSRIs and MAOIs altogether. Unless I am taking DMT orally, that is the only exception for an MAOI, and then I give myself time clean off Everything for a few days. There is something about the mind and body needing to be fully purged...

 

[dopamimetic]

Yeah but DXM isn't a MAOI

 

[polymath]

The risk related to taking dissociative doses of DXM with SSRI antidepressants is still much greater than any risk a normal adult would ever voluntarily take, and no one should be told that it's an OK thing to do.