Why you talking about how suboxone didnt work for you when the topic is methadone? Methadone and suboxone, and their effectiveness, are soooooooo different it aint even funny.
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DPMC Moderators: thegreenhand | tryptakid
Secret of AA: After 75 Years, We Don’t Know How It Works
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Why you talking about how suboxone didnt work for you when the topic is methadone? Methadone and suboxone, and their effectiveness, are soooooooo different it aint even funny.
donnie080208
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@realm "Also, this 1% AA/NA success rate is just hearsay. If you read the main article in this thread you'd know that. There's no way to really know what the success rate of the program is. "
The same could be said about 12 steps members claim that" it works if you work it"(but if it doesnt its your fault). There is a way of mesuring a.a.'s sucess just like any other treatment, how many people are sober after being "treated" with the 12 step program for say 6 months. Im sure people cleverer than me could work out a fair and impartial way of working out a.a.'s sucess rate these days.
also i respect subs didnt work for you but you get that even with the most sucessful treatments and medication but methadone /subs do vastly improve the lives of MOST people who go on them to a greater or lesser degree, can the same be said of A.A., very much doubt it.? btw respect for standing your graound realm, few 12 steppers ever do, just shut their ears off to critics.
The same could be said about 12 steps members claim that" it works if you work it"(but if it doesnt its your fault). There is a way of mesuring a.a.'s sucess just like any other treatment, how many people are sober after being "treated" with the 12 step program for say 6 months. Im sure people cleverer than me could work out a fair and impartial way of working out a.a.'s sucess rate these days.
also i respect subs didnt work for you but you get that even with the most sucessful treatments and medication but methadone /subs do vastly improve the lives of MOST people who go on them to a greater or lesser degree, can the same be said of A.A., very much doubt it.? btw respect for standing your graound realm, few 12 steppers ever do, just shut their ears off to critics.
On a website devoted to recreational drug use people are lining up to slam AA/NA? Imagine that.
Even if it's not your cup of tea everyone here should be grateful for AA/NA. I know a lot of people in the meetings. And if they weren't there in those meetings, they'd be robbing your house.
Even if it's not your cup of tea everyone here should be grateful for AA/NA. I know a lot of people in the meetings. And if they weren't there in those meetings, they'd be robbing your house.
donnie080208
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@CASHMUNNY "On a website devoted to recreational drug use people are lining up to slam AA/NA? Imagine that."
What utter crap, Bl is not devoted to rec. drug use, imo its a place for addicts to find non judgemental help and for harm reductions and debate on treatments, maintenance. etc..( something the 12 steppers are clearly touchy about)
How do you know certain people who are at AA/NA would be out robbing house's, for all you know (and probably they) they would be part of the sizable minority of alcoholics who stop with NO treatment. (but then give a.a. credit, but if they dont stop, you guessed it ,its them, the dirty, "spiritually deseased", deviants)
I think all what myself and other doubters want ,is for A.A./N.A. to provide say yearly statistics on its sucess rates, retention etc..Its the 21st century ,dont tell me there isnt an impartial way of providing stats on a cross section of12 step programs, every other medication and treatments have to do this, why is A.A./N.A. so special (or is it scared?)
Btw you know what is the MOST SUCESSFUL way of stopping an addict robbing a house and improving his life, methadone maintenance, yes ,its got a low sucess rate of people who "abstain totally" but in the past 40 years its been proven time and again to be (sadly) an addicts best chance of getting away from chaotic drug fuelled lives. imo maintanace should be the FIRST option discussed with a long term, high risk, i.v. heroin user. 12 step programs should be banned from being mentioned by medical professionals imo untill its rigourosly and fairly tested and REGULATED( to protect vunerable people from perverts and dangerous advice)
Also its o.k. for 12 steppers to slag off methadone, subs, benzo's etc.. but if youve got an opinion or crticism against the 12 step religion, youre meant to meekly say "its not my cup of tea".
What utter crap, Bl is not devoted to rec. drug use, imo its a place for addicts to find non judgemental help and for harm reductions and debate on treatments, maintenance. etc..( something the 12 steppers are clearly touchy about)
How do you know certain people who are at AA/NA would be out robbing house's, for all you know (and probably they) they would be part of the sizable minority of alcoholics who stop with NO treatment. (but then give a.a. credit, but if they dont stop, you guessed it ,its them, the dirty, "spiritually deseased", deviants)
I think all what myself and other doubters want ,is for A.A./N.A. to provide say yearly statistics on its sucess rates, retention etc..Its the 21st century ,dont tell me there isnt an impartial way of providing stats on a cross section of12 step programs, every other medication and treatments have to do this, why is A.A./N.A. so special (or is it scared?)
Btw you know what is the MOST SUCESSFUL way of stopping an addict robbing a house and improving his life, methadone maintenance, yes ,its got a low sucess rate of people who "abstain totally" but in the past 40 years its been proven time and again to be (sadly) an addicts best chance of getting away from chaotic drug fuelled lives. imo maintanace should be the FIRST option discussed with a long term, high risk, i.v. heroin user. 12 step programs should be banned from being mentioned by medical professionals imo untill its rigourosly and fairly tested and REGULATED( to protect vunerable people from perverts and dangerous advice)
Also its o.k. for 12 steppers to slag off methadone, subs, benzo's etc.. but if youve got an opinion or crticism against the 12 step religion, youre meant to meekly say "its not my cup of tea".
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It doesn't seem that way to me. Seems like it's more of a place to discuss how to get high(er) and how to kick. Nevertheless...
I've been around AA/NA for 17 years I would say that it is not very successful, success being defined as continuous abstinence. Maybe 1 or 2 in 10 get a year of continuous abstinence together. Just my ballpark unscientific observation. I would say that another 5 out of 10 get some lesser amount of clean time together. So that leaves another 30-40% of addicts who experience no improvement as defined by getting any amount of clean time.
In terms of more scientific measures, AA/NA as a whole should not get involved with that as it would go against the group guidelines as outlined in the 12 traditions. But if independent entitities like Universities or the NCAADA want to try their hand at surveying AA/NA members that's great.
My own opinion is that the reason AA/NA do not work for most people is because they are hard. Popping a pill is easy. Sitting in a meeting for an hour a day, calling sponsors, prayer, meditation, searching and fearless moral inventories are not easy. Personally I like the easy way.
I think a combination approach is best. Addiction after all is not just about a substance for many addicts. It's about an antisocial way of relating to the world. And while methadone or suboxone can treat the craving, it can't make you NOT an asshole. The 12 steps address the latter. On the other hand I think a significant component of the addictive process springs from genetic differences, depression, and childhood trauma. And the 12 steps can't really address those factors as well as medication and psychotherapy can.
But I've seen what suboxone can do and that stuff is a miracle drug for opiate addicts as far as I'm concerned.
New
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I always find it interesting when AA members say that measuring AA's success scientifically goes against its traditions...I mean, think about that. What would be more in line with "Attraction, not promotion" than to scientifically show that it is successful at what it claims to do? What is the purpose of the program, then, if not to be successful, and rather just make someone "feel good" about being duped?
It's ok, I was duped by 12-step organizations at one point. Being hoodwinked at a point of mental and emotional weakness doesn't make you stupid. It makes you human. What makes you stupid is if you decide to continue to support an organization which fails at its main selling point after overwhelming evidence. It's ok. I was stupid, too. It happens.
It's ok, I was duped by 12-step organizations at one point. Being hoodwinked at a point of mental and emotional weakness doesn't make you stupid. It makes you human. What makes you stupid is if you decide to continue to support an organization which fails at its main selling point after overwhelming evidence. It's ok. I was stupid, too. It happens.
donnie080208
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@samael, superbly put, A.A. wont open itself to analysis, not because of their "12 traditions" BUT because they are scared of the out come and the death knell this may sound for the 12 treatment programs if any results show how poorly a treament option they really are.
Like you said A.A. as a whole is kept going by preying on the vunerable and weak who are currently susceptible to its nonsensical dogma, because they've abused drink and drugs for the past few years.
@CASHMUMMY why was my comment about Bluelight so funny imo it isnt just a place to learn about getting high or to kick, but a non judgemental environment to talk and EDUCATE yourself about drugs . also its a place to find help and get advice if you have mental health problems or are suicidal ,so id hardly say it was a "place devoted to recreational drug users" would you?
Like you said A.A. as a whole is kept going by preying on the vunerable and weak who are currently susceptible to its nonsensical dogma, because they've abused drink and drugs for the past few years.
@CASHMUMMY why was my comment about Bluelight so funny imo it isnt just a place to learn about getting high or to kick, but a non judgemental environment to talk and EDUCATE yourself about drugs . also its a place to find help and get advice if you have mental health problems or are suicidal ,so id hardly say it was a "place devoted to recreational drug users" would you?
Syd_Barret
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God damn this thread turned gargantuan.
I think half the problems in AA could be solved if all meetings were mandatory gender segregated. Thats neither here nor there though. I dont believe in AA or anything, but from my brief stint amongst that culture, I can tell you that a high percentage of all relapses or relapses waiting to happen all came from male and female interactions. Plus, a lot of people try to use sex or intimacy to take advantage of recently detoxed individuals that may not be so keen on sex or intimacy atm. THen again they might be, who knows, I'm just saying, gender segregation would be a good thing for a majority of people.
Happened to em as well, I hooked up with a chick I met in rehab, and of coruse next thing you know, we're out shooting together and fucking around. WOnderful.
Anyways, I'm content to just say that AA apparently does work for some people, it might not be able to account for more than the spontaneous rate of people getting better or worse, but people seem to find it useful and its a non-profit organization so no money really to worry about.
And as long as people don't go trying to convert me to it, I'm fine. Leave me be.
But that rarely happens of course, we're humans after all.
I think half the problems in AA could be solved if all meetings were mandatory gender segregated. Thats neither here nor there though. I dont believe in AA or anything, but from my brief stint amongst that culture, I can tell you that a high percentage of all relapses or relapses waiting to happen all came from male and female interactions. Plus, a lot of people try to use sex or intimacy to take advantage of recently detoxed individuals that may not be so keen on sex or intimacy atm. THen again they might be, who knows, I'm just saying, gender segregation would be a good thing for a majority of people.
Happened to em as well, I hooked up with a chick I met in rehab, and of coruse next thing you know, we're out shooting together and fucking around. WOnderful.
Anyways, I'm content to just say that AA apparently does work for some people, it might not be able to account for more than the spontaneous rate of people getting better or worse, but people seem to find it useful and its a non-profit organization so no money really to worry about.
And as long as people don't go trying to convert me to it, I'm fine. Leave me be.
But that rarely happens of course, we're humans after all.
Syd_Barret
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Double psot sorry
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donnie080208
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@syd its funny you say that i met my girlfriend at A.A. and now have 2 children with her, was it sensible to get involved with each other, probably not but theres worse ways to meet a partner imo.
saying this i still agree it should be seperate for M/F though
saying this i still agree it should be seperate for M/F though
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Syd_Barret
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it doesnt HAVE to be seperate.
But I gurantee it would only help the cause of AA.
Fuck this keyboard, wont type shit right
But I gurantee it would only help the cause of AA.
Fuck this keyboard, wont type shit right
centaur62
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Fascinating articles and discussion. I have always had a hard time understanding the "philosophy" of AA. It is clearly based firmly in Christian dogma, much of which is outside my personal belief system. I believe it is primarily the support of the group, sponsor, program buddies, and the sense of belonging and intimacy they bring that makes twelve step programs effective--for people who respond to that sort of environment. Of course the Higher Power is the group and the individual's will power, NOT God ("as we understand God"). Anyone who thinks they are surrendering their lives over to God is delusional. If there is a god, s/he is not intervening in addicts' lives (or anyone else's) to keep them sober.
phactor
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No we don't, but its working for me now. Group reinforcement, combined with proper counseling and medication give addicts a shot at recovery. I am on Suboxone, Wellbutrin and Serquel and have been clean for 27 days. Not that long but its a fucking miracle considering how sick I am.
I used to trash AA/NA all the time, but little did I know that when I went in with an open mind they would possibly end up saving my life.
Syd - Some people do just go to Mens and Womens meetings. The thing I love about the program is its flexibility, the person in recovery can really make it there own if they want too.
All of the old "its a cult", "I don't want to feel powerless", "its too religious" were just ways I was denying and rationalizing my use. I have been a alcoholic drug addict for years, no way around it. My problem is so bad that I need help from others. I think that asking others for help is one of the hardest and most courageous things a person can do.
I used to trash AA/NA all the time, but little did I know that when I went in with an open mind they would possibly end up saving my life.
Syd - Some people do just go to Mens and Womens meetings. The thing I love about the program is its flexibility, the person in recovery can really make it there own if they want too.
All of the old "its a cult", "I don't want to feel powerless", "its too religious" were just ways I was denying and rationalizing my use. I have been a alcoholic drug addict for years, no way around it. My problem is so bad that I need help from others. I think that asking others for help is one of the hardest and most courageous things a person can do.
Lacey K wow I totally know and understand what you are saying, I just did a 30 day inpatient treatment program and I would very much like to tell of my visit there. This was a behavior modification type treatment, I had to be up and on the floor at 6am and could not go to bed untill 11 pm everyone there was very tired all the time.
We had group most of the day, there was 21 of us, while sitting in your chair you were not allowed to cross your arms or legs if you broke any rules you got whats called a support, you get 3 of them and you get what they called a door mod which means every time you go through any door way you must say out loud what you did and why it was wrong.
The rules here were just like boot camp, when I recieved work from my councelor I would have to read all my answers to the group while sitting in a chair in the center of the group. Then there was what they called a chair round which you had to sit in front of each patient,look them in the eye,about 3 feet away and say what ever your councelor told you to, one of mine was "when I think of how wonderful the drug world is" then I would have to come up with some thing like I remember all the time I spent in prison, I had to sit in front every patient and think up 20 things concering the drug world which was not a diffcult one.
We were allowed one cup of decaff coffee in the am, no sugar, if you wanted a vitamin,an ibuprofen,or any over the counter med then you had to go see the doctor in town and get his approval, fucking crazy I think. But we were allowed to smoke and I was allowed to take my buprenorphine, I took it twice a day and each time it was given to me rite in front of the group, I thought this cazy also, youve got opiate addicts in severe withdrawal having to watch me take it, it made me feel like a cop out.
This place had so many stupid rules I dont have time to tell them all, I saw people come in and sit in thier chair for a few hours, watching women and men reading thier autobiographies crying thier eyes out in the middle of group,many said oh hell no im out of here. I stayed only because they gave me my meds, my alternative was the county jail and they give me nothing so I had to tough it out and get my certificate and add it to the pile of past in patient and intensive out patient treatment certificates I have.
I really feel you on what you have to say about N.A.-A.A I have been forced to go so many times, I want to run down the street screaming NO MORE,NO MORE, I realize these meetings help some people, but like you said in a way they are trading one thing for another, its sort of like a religion to some of them. In one of the papers I had to do in treatment I was asked about my higher power and I put down that I didnt need one, that my recovery came from me and nothing else. Well my councelor wrote " say what " and she called me in to the office just for that. I was afraid that if I stuck to my guns about this higher power thing I may not get my certificate, so I told her my higher was in a way like the force on star wars with out the moving of objects with ones mind.
I feel that all the treatment I have been through has not helped me one bit, all the meetings I have been forced to attend have not helped one bit, my recovery comes from within and Im just plain tired of being in trouble from our insane drug laws, I had to make a compromise, I take one buprenorphine a day so am I clean? many would say no, I also would say no because I will go through withdrawal if I stop, but my life is much better on this rather than putting a needle in myself three times a day and spending all my time and money and risking prison for the 4th time. Well I got a little carried away here sorry, but I really agree with you, we must think a little alike, take care now.
We had group most of the day, there was 21 of us, while sitting in your chair you were not allowed to cross your arms or legs if you broke any rules you got whats called a support, you get 3 of them and you get what they called a door mod which means every time you go through any door way you must say out loud what you did and why it was wrong.
The rules here were just like boot camp, when I recieved work from my councelor I would have to read all my answers to the group while sitting in a chair in the center of the group. Then there was what they called a chair round which you had to sit in front of each patient,look them in the eye,about 3 feet away and say what ever your councelor told you to, one of mine was "when I think of how wonderful the drug world is" then I would have to come up with some thing like I remember all the time I spent in prison, I had to sit in front every patient and think up 20 things concering the drug world which was not a diffcult one.
We were allowed one cup of decaff coffee in the am, no sugar, if you wanted a vitamin,an ibuprofen,or any over the counter med then you had to go see the doctor in town and get his approval, fucking crazy I think. But we were allowed to smoke and I was allowed to take my buprenorphine, I took it twice a day and each time it was given to me rite in front of the group, I thought this cazy also, youve got opiate addicts in severe withdrawal having to watch me take it, it made me feel like a cop out.
This place had so many stupid rules I dont have time to tell them all, I saw people come in and sit in thier chair for a few hours, watching women and men reading thier autobiographies crying thier eyes out in the middle of group,many said oh hell no im out of here. I stayed only because they gave me my meds, my alternative was the county jail and they give me nothing so I had to tough it out and get my certificate and add it to the pile of past in patient and intensive out patient treatment certificates I have.
I really feel you on what you have to say about N.A.-A.A I have been forced to go so many times, I want to run down the street screaming NO MORE,NO MORE, I realize these meetings help some people, but like you said in a way they are trading one thing for another, its sort of like a religion to some of them. In one of the papers I had to do in treatment I was asked about my higher power and I put down that I didnt need one, that my recovery came from me and nothing else. Well my councelor wrote " say what " and she called me in to the office just for that. I was afraid that if I stuck to my guns about this higher power thing I may not get my certificate, so I told her my higher was in a way like the force on star wars with out the moving of objects with ones mind.
I feel that all the treatment I have been through has not helped me one bit, all the meetings I have been forced to attend have not helped one bit, my recovery comes from within and Im just plain tired of being in trouble from our insane drug laws, I had to make a compromise, I take one buprenorphine a day so am I clean? many would say no, I also would say no because I will go through withdrawal if I stop, but my life is much better on this rather than putting a needle in myself three times a day and spending all my time and money and risking prison for the 4th time. Well I got a little carried away here sorry, but I really agree with you, we must think a little alike, take care now.
Taking methadone may keep you off opiates? huh? thats like saying everclear will keep you of jack daniels, methadone is a synthetic opiate. About the soboxone not working, I see so many people take thier soboxone to early and then they say never again that shit doesnt work! I know everyone is not the same, I was on the soboxone for a few months and then told my doctor it was to expensive.
He then gave me a script for 60 generic subutex (buprenorphine) it is much cheaper than soboxone. He the doctor also told me if he found out I was injecting them there would be no more. I took it for the first time and noticed a little difference, I thought oh its all in my head, then my friend who also got the same as me said hey do you notice a difference? I said ya I can tell they work a little better.
I think the naloxone in the soboxone made me feel strange in some way, I like the plain bups much better, but any way if anyone tries bups or soboxone please wait untill you are very sick then take the pill, you will get better in about and hour. There was a young kid in jail with me a month ago, he was in bad withdrawal 3 days into it, I had a months supply of my bups and felt sorry for the kid so I gave him a half of a pill and in an hour he was fine and went to sleep.
I would much rather be on methadone than the bups but in my town its a 46 mile drive one way, and finding a doctor in this town that will give an addict methadone is unheard of, I have to drive to seattle to get my bups, thats 100 miles one way but my doctor is really cool he gives me a script of 60 with 3 refills so I only have to drive it every 4 months. I still get high maybe once every other month, I am very thankful for my bups.
He then gave me a script for 60 generic subutex (buprenorphine) it is much cheaper than soboxone. He the doctor also told me if he found out I was injecting them there would be no more. I took it for the first time and noticed a little difference, I thought oh its all in my head, then my friend who also got the same as me said hey do you notice a difference? I said ya I can tell they work a little better.
I think the naloxone in the soboxone made me feel strange in some way, I like the plain bups much better, but any way if anyone tries bups or soboxone please wait untill you are very sick then take the pill, you will get better in about and hour. There was a young kid in jail with me a month ago, he was in bad withdrawal 3 days into it, I had a months supply of my bups and felt sorry for the kid so I gave him a half of a pill and in an hour he was fine and went to sleep.
I would much rather be on methadone than the bups but in my town its a 46 mile drive one way, and finding a doctor in this town that will give an addict methadone is unheard of, I have to drive to seattle to get my bups, thats 100 miles one way but my doctor is really cool he gives me a script of 60 with 3 refills so I only have to drive it every 4 months. I still get high maybe once every other month, I am very thankful for my bups.
when people say methadone can keep you off opiates they mean that methadone can keep you from addictive, abusive use of recreational opiates that you are addicted to.
And to me at least "clean" has nothing to do with whether or not you would go into withdrawal. That aint no way to judge it. You are clean if you stopped using the drug that you were addicted to and do not abuse any other drugs in any other way.
If you stop shootin heroin 8 times a day and instead get on methadone and take it as prescribed everyday sure you are clean. If you stop usin heroin and you smoke weed once in a while, you are clean. (this is my opinion i understand some people disagree.) "clean" is about how your mind works and how you use the drugs that you DO use.
Is a heroin addict not clean becuz they are prescribed benzos, which they take as prescribed and dont abuse, just becuz if they stopped takin the benzos they would go into withdrawal?
Physical dependence aint the same as addiction. I am physically dependent on methadone, not addicted to it. I was physically dependent AND addicted to heroin.
If you are dependent on a medication that a dr. prescribed to you for a good reason and you take it as prescribed and never abuse it then it dont matter WTF medication it is--you can still be clean while bein on that medication.
For example say a person is a oxy addict. they have a script for a legitimate medical condition that they genuinely need it for, but they abuse it. they take too much, they double dose, they buy extra pills from dealers, they run outtaa their script 3 weeks early every month, etc. They decide to get clean tho and stop the addiction.
However they legitimately need the medication for a real medical reason. So they stop takin it in any other way than the way its prescribed to them. they never double dose, or run out early, they never abuse it, they use it exactly as its suppose to be used for their condition. In that case they are clean. I fully believe that and i think alot of the ideas of "clean" are kinda fucked up. if a person has a fuckin tumor on their spine or somethin and they are prescribed opanas , and they are a dopehead, and then they decide to 'get clean', nobody should ever expect them to stop taking their prescribed painkillers, they are scripted those for a definite, clear medical need and without them their life would be full of horrible excruciating pain and suffering every day. So they stop shootin dope and stop sniffing their painkillers and just use them as prescribed and never abuse them--they are clean.
thats how I am clean on methadone and you are clean on suboxone. there is much more to it than the black and white 'do you use any drugs or not', its how and why you take them if you do, not all drug taking when you are clean makes you be 'not clean', it depends on the situation, your mentality, the way you use the drug, etc. thats some of the shit i cant stand about NA. You want to tell me that after kicking a 5 year heroin and opiate addiction , if i smoke weed 3 times a year, i aint clean no more? Fuuuuck you. I am clean.
Their definition of it is so fuckin narrow becuz some people cant deal in gray areas. they are totally unable to understand the concept of a gray area becuz that would require them to use their own willpower and critical thinking skills instead of just following the group think "rules" of the program. Its much easier to just never use again , and to be either 'using' or 'not using', than to actually take responsibility and control yourself and the way you do shit. AA/NA members cant smoke a blunt now and then if they are heroin addicts becuz it blurs the line too much for them, its all or nothing, if they can smoke weed, then cant they use heroin? they cant differentiate between the different kinds of drug use, and addictive vs non addictive , non harmful use, so its just either one or the other, clean or using. To be abstinent from heroin and using the drugs you addicted to, and just responsibly, moderately use other less harmful non addictive drugs from time to time is totally unheard of and impossible in their eyes, it makes it too complicated. They want something extremely simple and easy to follow and that is the program. they dont handle complex gray area type of thinking too well so they just make a solid line--yes/no, clean/using.
for me that mentality is bullshit, i KNOW that I absolutely will not fall back into addiction from taking painkillers that the dentist prescribed for a wisdom tooth gettin pulled out. I KNOW that i aint gonna start shootin dope everyday again if i smoke a blunt. I KNOW that drinkin a glass of champagne at a wedding aint gonna put me back on the dope train. I know this shit, and im completely capable of dealin with those situations but for alot of people who are real strict about the program that is too much thinking for them, they cant make the decisions on their own without the program telling them exactly wat to do and the idea of THEM being the ones in control and decidin shit is too scary for them so its easier to just ask somebody else how to act and just go along with the steps.
And to me at least "clean" has nothing to do with whether or not you would go into withdrawal. That aint no way to judge it. You are clean if you stopped using the drug that you were addicted to and do not abuse any other drugs in any other way.
If you stop shootin heroin 8 times a day and instead get on methadone and take it as prescribed everyday sure you are clean. If you stop usin heroin and you smoke weed once in a while, you are clean. (this is my opinion i understand some people disagree.) "clean" is about how your mind works and how you use the drugs that you DO use.
Is a heroin addict not clean becuz they are prescribed benzos, which they take as prescribed and dont abuse, just becuz if they stopped takin the benzos they would go into withdrawal?
Physical dependence aint the same as addiction. I am physically dependent on methadone, not addicted to it. I was physically dependent AND addicted to heroin.
If you are dependent on a medication that a dr. prescribed to you for a good reason and you take it as prescribed and never abuse it then it dont matter WTF medication it is--you can still be clean while bein on that medication.
For example say a person is a oxy addict. they have a script for a legitimate medical condition that they genuinely need it for, but they abuse it. they take too much, they double dose, they buy extra pills from dealers, they run outtaa their script 3 weeks early every month, etc. They decide to get clean tho and stop the addiction.
However they legitimately need the medication for a real medical reason. So they stop takin it in any other way than the way its prescribed to them. they never double dose, or run out early, they never abuse it, they use it exactly as its suppose to be used for their condition. In that case they are clean. I fully believe that and i think alot of the ideas of "clean" are kinda fucked up. if a person has a fuckin tumor on their spine or somethin and they are prescribed opanas , and they are a dopehead, and then they decide to 'get clean', nobody should ever expect them to stop taking their prescribed painkillers, they are scripted those for a definite, clear medical need and without them their life would be full of horrible excruciating pain and suffering every day. So they stop shootin dope and stop sniffing their painkillers and just use them as prescribed and never abuse them--they are clean.
thats how I am clean on methadone and you are clean on suboxone. there is much more to it than the black and white 'do you use any drugs or not', its how and why you take them if you do, not all drug taking when you are clean makes you be 'not clean', it depends on the situation, your mentality, the way you use the drug, etc. thats some of the shit i cant stand about NA. You want to tell me that after kicking a 5 year heroin and opiate addiction , if i smoke weed 3 times a year, i aint clean no more? Fuuuuck you. I am clean.
Their definition of it is so fuckin narrow becuz some people cant deal in gray areas. they are totally unable to understand the concept of a gray area becuz that would require them to use their own willpower and critical thinking skills instead of just following the group think "rules" of the program. Its much easier to just never use again , and to be either 'using' or 'not using', than to actually take responsibility and control yourself and the way you do shit. AA/NA members cant smoke a blunt now and then if they are heroin addicts becuz it blurs the line too much for them, its all or nothing, if they can smoke weed, then cant they use heroin? they cant differentiate between the different kinds of drug use, and addictive vs non addictive , non harmful use, so its just either one or the other, clean or using. To be abstinent from heroin and using the drugs you addicted to, and just responsibly, moderately use other less harmful non addictive drugs from time to time is totally unheard of and impossible in their eyes, it makes it too complicated. They want something extremely simple and easy to follow and that is the program. they dont handle complex gray area type of thinking too well so they just make a solid line--yes/no, clean/using.
for me that mentality is bullshit, i KNOW that I absolutely will not fall back into addiction from taking painkillers that the dentist prescribed for a wisdom tooth gettin pulled out. I KNOW that i aint gonna start shootin dope everyday again if i smoke a blunt. I KNOW that drinkin a glass of champagne at a wedding aint gonna put me back on the dope train. I know this shit, and im completely capable of dealin with those situations but for alot of people who are real strict about the program that is too much thinking for them, they cant make the decisions on their own without the program telling them exactly wat to do and the idea of THEM being the ones in control and decidin shit is too scary for them so its easier to just ask somebody else how to act and just go along with the steps.
phactor
Bluelighter
- Joined
- Nov 13, 2002
- Messages
- 5,107
Lacy - Good for you. I was prescribed Benzos during my intial detox and am now on suboxone. I KNOW that I personally would not be able to control using Benzos on my own. Therefor it is a necessity for me to have my benzo use monitored or controlled. I am learning to use my suboxone responsibly and have never once abused it. However, why tempt it at this point? I am still given opportunities to slowly prove to myself that I can use it responsibly (over the weekends and at night when I am given more then one dose).
AA/NA does not say you cannot take pain medication if needed. That would be insanity. What you do need to know is make the Doctor know you are an addict. Furthermore, for someone like me, it is a necessity for me to let my sponsor and others who care for me to let them know that I am being prescribed pain medication for an operation. Why... because I am an addict and almost destroyed my life by using opiates and other things. I do not want that to happen again.
I can take ibuprofen any time I want. Its not addictive for me. I can take suboxone and other medications because they help me to not relapse. Its my own damn business. It is my decision to let people know if I want too.
If you are using other drugs responsibly and do not need help, then more power to you. Do whatever works for you and IMO it is a waste of energy worrying about what works for others. I however have tried everything under the sun and by the end was addicted to several of them (some physically, all mentally). I have a decade of experience that shows that I cannot use any mind altering substance responsibly. Instead, I now use meditation to get me to where I want and need to be. It takes practice, but its actually healthy for me. Furthermore, there are lots of cool meditation aids that are being developed that really help me achieve the state I want to be in. Things like Hemi-Sync, Binural Tones and Beats, Heart Math etc.
I consider myself clean and so does my program (otherwise I would not be there) and the people I know in the program. Sure there are fanatics, but whatever. It appears that you are casting judgement on something in which you do not understand. I was the same way. Furthermore, nobody fully understands the program, even the oldtimers. I have never once felt forced to conform to anyone else or anything else. In fact its the flexibility of the program that allows it to work for me. I choose what meetings to go to (if I want to go) and who I associate with. Sometimes I do not want to go to meetings but I KNOW it is something that keeps me sober so I make myself go. Its better then being an addict and I can say that with only 29 days clean this time around. My life is so much better today then it was a few weeks ago. Frankly, I was fucking commiting slow suicide and did not realize it until my head cleared. I had no idea how fucked up I was seriously. Otherwise I would not have put myself in a position to have a seizure which could have killed me.
Also, my roommates last relapse started with a terrible sermon that personally attacked him (he is gay) at his brothers wedding followed by a glass of champagne. So for him it did put him back on the dope train. So again, everybody is different. I am glad that you have more control then he does (and for that matter more control then I).
Barry - This is not my first time in treatment/recovery but I hope it is my last. The major difference is that I have faith in my program and know that its working and I know have an open mind and realize that my habit is well beyond my ability to control it. This feels so much different from any other recovery I have tried (alone or with help) that I cannot explain it.
I have been in places like what you described and they simply do not work (for me). The program I am in now is geared towards professionals. It has a focus on mediation, exercise and positive sobriety. Much of the training is based on research from the U Mass school of Mindfulness. I am not being judgmental but the patients are much smarter then the average addict, therefor the program is more flexible and I actually learn something every day. That is huge for me. Suboxone and other medications allow me the ability to actually tackle my addiction and take care of the anxiety and lack of sleep. Furthermore, I have some mental illness issues that I was self medicating for. The medicines help me to function without having to turn to illegal drugs and massive amounts of alcohol. Frankly, over the last two years the drugs were not working. I spent my last night of use smoking freebase cocaine. I had sunk to a new low. Then I hit an even bigger low two days later.
http://www.umassmed.edu/cfm/stress/index.aspx
Unfortunately, it took me to the point of being close to dying (seizure) to admit that I was powerless. After I did so I felt a wave of relief. It is so much easier to stay abstinent the to work the daily circus that is addiction.
I hope at some point you are able to find a better program and enter it with an open mind. As I said I literally spent years trying to convince myself that I could control my use. This is something only an addict will do. If I was not I would A) Not care that I was stopping my use and B) Actually be able to stop fucking using and drinking.
I'd say good luck but its not about luck. IMO its all about actually truly wanting to quit and then taking action to do so.
AA/NA does not say you cannot take pain medication if needed. That would be insanity. What you do need to know is make the Doctor know you are an addict. Furthermore, for someone like me, it is a necessity for me to let my sponsor and others who care for me to let them know that I am being prescribed pain medication for an operation. Why... because I am an addict and almost destroyed my life by using opiates and other things. I do not want that to happen again.
I can take ibuprofen any time I want. Its not addictive for me. I can take suboxone and other medications because they help me to not relapse. Its my own damn business. It is my decision to let people know if I want too.
If you are using other drugs responsibly and do not need help, then more power to you. Do whatever works for you and IMO it is a waste of energy worrying about what works for others. I however have tried everything under the sun and by the end was addicted to several of them (some physically, all mentally). I have a decade of experience that shows that I cannot use any mind altering substance responsibly. Instead, I now use meditation to get me to where I want and need to be. It takes practice, but its actually healthy for me. Furthermore, there are lots of cool meditation aids that are being developed that really help me achieve the state I want to be in. Things like Hemi-Sync, Binural Tones and Beats, Heart Math etc.
I consider myself clean and so does my program (otherwise I would not be there) and the people I know in the program. Sure there are fanatics, but whatever. It appears that you are casting judgement on something in which you do not understand. I was the same way. Furthermore, nobody fully understands the program, even the oldtimers. I have never once felt forced to conform to anyone else or anything else. In fact its the flexibility of the program that allows it to work for me. I choose what meetings to go to (if I want to go) and who I associate with. Sometimes I do not want to go to meetings but I KNOW it is something that keeps me sober so I make myself go. Its better then being an addict and I can say that with only 29 days clean this time around. My life is so much better today then it was a few weeks ago. Frankly, I was fucking commiting slow suicide and did not realize it until my head cleared. I had no idea how fucked up I was seriously. Otherwise I would not have put myself in a position to have a seizure which could have killed me.
Also, my roommates last relapse started with a terrible sermon that personally attacked him (he is gay) at his brothers wedding followed by a glass of champagne. So for him it did put him back on the dope train. So again, everybody is different. I am glad that you have more control then he does (and for that matter more control then I).
Barry - This is not my first time in treatment/recovery but I hope it is my last. The major difference is that I have faith in my program and know that its working and I know have an open mind and realize that my habit is well beyond my ability to control it. This feels so much different from any other recovery I have tried (alone or with help) that I cannot explain it.
I have been in places like what you described and they simply do not work (for me). The program I am in now is geared towards professionals. It has a focus on mediation, exercise and positive sobriety. Much of the training is based on research from the U Mass school of Mindfulness. I am not being judgmental but the patients are much smarter then the average addict, therefor the program is more flexible and I actually learn something every day. That is huge for me. Suboxone and other medications allow me the ability to actually tackle my addiction and take care of the anxiety and lack of sleep. Furthermore, I have some mental illness issues that I was self medicating for. The medicines help me to function without having to turn to illegal drugs and massive amounts of alcohol. Frankly, over the last two years the drugs were not working. I spent my last night of use smoking freebase cocaine. I had sunk to a new low. Then I hit an even bigger low two days later.
http://www.umassmed.edu/cfm/stress/index.aspx
Unfortunately, it took me to the point of being close to dying (seizure) to admit that I was powerless. After I did so I felt a wave of relief. It is so much easier to stay abstinent the to work the daily circus that is addiction.
I hope at some point you are able to find a better program and enter it with an open mind. As I said I literally spent years trying to convince myself that I could control my use. This is something only an addict will do. If I was not I would A) Not care that I was stopping my use and B) Actually be able to stop fucking using and drinking.
I'd say good luck but its not about luck. IMO its all about actually truly wanting to quit and then taking action to do so.
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phactor
Bluelighter
- Joined
- Nov 13, 2002
- Messages
- 5,107
Also, there is something to be said about group conciseness and group healing. This can be achieved in many different ways. I think that for me AA/NA meetings allow me to "tap in" (old STS9 song 
) into this energy and I have heard similar from others. Again, it is what you make it.
Furthermore, my favorite type of meditation is in groups and that is what works best for me. There is something special about this IMO and it cannot be explained. What I do know is that I have achieved Euphoria and Connectedness during these sessions.
If anyone is interested in this in Chicago then I would suggest checking this out:
http://www.theinsightcenter.com/
I posted this in my previous post but this is an interesting page IMO:
http://www.umassmed.edu/cfm/stress/index.aspx
Mindfullness Based Stress Reduction is much healthier for me then swallowing a pill or snorting something up my nose. It is not as easy, but the comedown or withdraw is nil.
Also, another great thing about AA is its stress on service work. I know that helping others in a healthy way can really help heal myself. I do need to keep my sobriety as the number one thing though. If it effects me in a bad way then I do not do it. Plain and simple. I have been in positions where I have people pleased and let others take advantage of my kindness/desire to help as well and it is totally different (energy draining and negative).
Oh and thanks for the article Phrozen! I am going to print it out and share it with my small group.
) into this energy and I have heard similar from others. Again, it is what you make it. Furthermore, my favorite type of meditation is in groups and that is what works best for me. There is something special about this IMO and it cannot be explained. What I do know is that I have achieved Euphoria and Connectedness during these sessions.
If anyone is interested in this in Chicago then I would suggest checking this out:
http://www.theinsightcenter.com/
I posted this in my previous post but this is an interesting page IMO:
http://www.umassmed.edu/cfm/stress/index.aspx
Mindfullness Based Stress Reduction is much healthier for me then swallowing a pill or snorting something up my nose. It is not as easy, but the comedown or withdraw is nil.
Also, another great thing about AA is its stress on service work. I know that helping others in a healthy way can really help heal myself. I do need to keep my sobriety as the number one thing though. If it effects me in a bad way then I do not do it. Plain and simple. I have been in positions where I have people pleased and let others take advantage of my kindness/desire to help as well and it is totally different (energy draining and negative).
Oh and thanks for the article Phrozen! I am going to print it out and share it with my small group.
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