SCRA Discussion - all Cannabinoid discussion goes here

[Sprout]

Will update thread as and when I can.

The first generation of synthetics were the brainchild of Dr Huffman brginning in 1984. Many of the compounds he synthesised eventually found their way into the posterchildren of the synthetics in mainstream society: K2 and Spice blends.
The most commonly encountered example of the JWH-x series (those are his initials, not nomenclature...) was JWH-018.
JWH-018 Megathread

The in vitro microsomal metabolism of JWH-015, a ligand that exhibits a high binding affinity at the peripheral cannabinoid receptor CB2, has been studied. A total of 22 metabolites were identified and structurally characterized. The metabolites are products of: 1) monohydroxylation on the naphthalene ring (m/z 344, M20 and M21), indole ring (m/z 344, M17 and M18 ), or the N-alkyl group (m/z 344, M14); 2) arene oxidation leading to dihydrodiols (m/z 362, M12 and M15); 3) dihydroxylation on the naphthalene ring (m/z 360, M7) or indole ring (m/z 360, M13), resulting from a combination of monohydroxylations on both the naphthalene and indole rings (m/z 360, M16), or a combination of monohydroxylations on the naphthalene ring and on the N-propyl group (m/z 360, M9); 4) trihydroxylation (m/z 378, M1, M3, M4, M6, and M10); 5) N-dealkylation (m/z 286, M19); 6) N-dealkylation and monohydroxylation on the naphthalene ring (m/z 302, M11); 7) N-dealkylation and dihydrodiol formation from arene oxidation (m/z 320, M2 and M5); 8 ) dehydrogenation after monohydroxylation on the N-alkyl group (m/z 326, M22); 9) dehydrogenation and monohydroxylation on the indole ring (m/z 342, M8 ).

From this paper

It seems ChinaChem is still thoroughly creating novel Cannabinoids at a ridiculous rate, even in the face of the legislature and precursor controls.
Four SCRA's were recently seized from a clandestine laboratory and identified as:

N-(1-Amino-3,3-dimethyl-1-oxobutan-2-yl)-1-benzyl-1H-indazole-3-carboxamide (ADB-BINACA);

N-(1-Amino-3-methyl-1-oxobutan-2-yl)-1-(4-fluorobenzyl)-1H-indole-3-carboxamide (AB-FUBICA);

N-(1-Amino-3,3-dimethyl-1-oxobutan-2-yl)-1-(4-fluorobenzyl)-1H-indole-3-carboxamide (ADB-FUBICA);

N-(1-Amino-3-methyl-1-oxobutan-2-yl)-1-benzyl-1H-indole-3-carboxamide (AB-BICA)

Identification and Analysis Paper


Of note is that AB-BICA was not even known to exist until this point. There is absolutely zero information from a chemical, biological, pharmacological or toxicological perspective.
These products were not being manufactured for the borderline licit RC trade, rather for the black market illicit drug trade.

 

[consumer]

I tried the earlier JWH blends that were available in Australia under the Kronic brand when they were sold in shops. They were pleasant enough and quite similar to the stone of nice weed.

The cannabinoids coming out now quite frankly scare me. Last weekend a guy died near where i live and 3 others hospitalized in serious conditions from smoking a blend called Bangkok Betty. Scary stuff.

If i still smoked i would stick to normal weed and hash especially with the quality thats available these days.

 

[Sprout]

Headshop blends really are the worst of the worst of the poisonous of the poisons - there is no excuse for not using isolates in this day and age.

 

[consumer]

Headshop blends really are the worst of the worst of the poisonous of the poisons - there is no excuse for not using isolates in this day and age.

Unfortunately thats what is available to most people. Buying powders online isn't really an option for most people in Australia as it means importing a controlled substance.

 

[F.U.B.A.R.]

How come the blends are available? Surely they're as controlled as the pure powders over there?

 

[consumer]

How come the blends are available? Surely they're as controlled as the pure powders over there?

Yeah they are certainly illegal but some places are still selling them. There is a huge market here with the coal miners up in the Hunter Valley (which is where the death occurred) due to them being regularly urine tested and it appears that a few places are still selling them. Mainly sex shops from what the paper says. Everything that gets you high is banned here.

 

[consumer]

Are you still smoking the synthetics FUBAR?

 

[F.U.B.A.R.]

Are you still smoking the synthetics FUBAR?

Nope, had a couple of brief flings and although I can enjoy them to a certain extent, they're far too dose dependent, one dimensional and just plain scary for my liking.

 

[consumer]

Nope, had a couple of brief flings and although I can enjoy them to a certain extent, they're far too dose dependent, one dimensional and just plain scary for my liking.

I actually didn't mind the JWH-18 blends. It had a nice relaxing stone but the last blend i tried after the JWH blends were banned made me trip out briefly. I did not enjoy it. No idea what chem was in that one.

 

[Sprout]

Huffman's novelties (the JWH-x series, named after himself - how modest 8) ) are long gone over here, Consumer.
We've been through a good 5 generations or so since then...

 

[consumer]

Yeah they are long gone from here too. All the trouble with bad reactions seemed to occur after they were banned and new chems were used.

 

[Sprout]

^^
Pretty much sums up the idiocy of legislation in two sentences.

We seem to have hit a weird era in that the experimental structures are at least recognised and accepted so if one has access to Google and can recognise typical naming conventions a lot can be inferred rather than the "blind man playing darts with needles attached to lit dynamite" situation.

 

[F.U.B.A.R.]

I actually didn't mind the JWH-18 blends. It had a nice relaxing stone but the last blend i tried after the JWH blends were banned made me trip out briefly. I did not enjoy it. No idea what chem was in that one.

Never had the pleasure of the JWH series - they were out when I was still of the mindset 'if its legal it must be shit', having grown up in a era when 'legal highs' consisted of nutmeg, broom and blends such as Yuba Gold (which is apparently still available - £3.25/ounce). Ok, magic mushrooms were also legal, but they were the exception which proved the rule...

 

[Sprout]

That would possibly be true if you didn't ignore the glaring hole: anything that wasn't explicitly controlled back then was arguably legal, it just simply may not have been available (or even existed yet....).

Oh what I'd give to have our current knowledge and go back 20 years - get the chemslaves to knock up 4-MMC/PV/x-MAR without letting onto their potential....

 

[consumer]

Yuba Gold (which is apparently still available - £3.25/ounce).

LOL at Yuba Gold. I remember that shit. It was always advertised in High Times. I actually had the same attitude..if it was legal it must be shit...then a mate bought some round to my place. I could not believe how ripped i got. The JWH series were quite nice.

 

[F.U.B.A.R.]

That would possibly be true if you didn't ignore the glaring hole: anything that wasn't explicitly controlled back then was arguably legal, it just simply may not have been available (or even existed yet....).

Oh what I'd give to have our current knowledge and go back 20 years - get the chemslaves to knock up 4-MMC/PV/x-MAR without letting onto their potential....

oh too true, but pre-internet days this information just wasn't available.


@Consumer: Heh, High Times Always full of ads for mannitol as well - "The Kinder Cut"

 

[Ceres]

I'm sure if there was a regulated domestic cannabis market with quality controls and the right to grow a small number of plants for personal use, the synthetics would disappear overnight. But that would be crazy, imagine all the tax revenue, the job creation, the reduction in pressure on the health service etc, fuck all that, PEOPLE MIGHT ENJOY THEMSELVES ON TOP OF IT ALL. The world would end.

On a more serious note, I'd really like to see some proper analysis of the 'blends' that have caused deaths, toxicological aswell as pharmacological, I imagine 99% of the hospitalisations caused by SCRA's are due to the incredibly steep dose response curve and possibly less selective receptor binding profiles, hepatoxicty of impurities, allergic reactions to carrier materials in blends and so on.

It is not good enough to just see a headline in a tabloid 'BLACK MAMBA KILLED MY SON' - I want to see the fucking science being done.

 

[consumer]

oh too true, but pre-internet days this information just wasn't available.


@Consumer: Heh, High Times Always full of ads for mannitol as well - "The Kinder Cut"

Yeah i have a lot of old 70's High Times. Plenty of coke ads and articles and the Trans High Market Quotations covered a plethora of drugs back then. I much prefer the old high times.

 

[F.U.B.A.R.]

I'm sure if there was a regulated domestic cannabis market with quality controls and the right to grow a small number of plants for personal use, the synthetics would disappear overnight. But that would be crazy, imagine all the tax revenue, the job creation, the reduction in pressure on the health service etc, fuck all that, PEOPLE MIGHT ENJOY THEMSELVES ON TOP OF IT ALL. The world would end.

On a more serious note, I'd really like to see some proper analysis of the 'blends' that have caused deaths, toxicological aswell as pharmacological, I imagine 99% of the hospitalisations caused by SCRA's are due to the incredibly steep dose response curve and possibly less selective receptor binding profiles, hepatoxicty of impurities, allergic reactions to carrier materials in blends and so on.

It is not good enough to just see a headline in a tabloid 'BLACK MAMBA KILLED MY SON' - I want to see the fucking science being done.

Science will never hold sway while governments still have to pander to the moral majority to gain votes. Fuck 'em all...

 

[Sprout]

I'm sure if there was a regulated domestic cannabis market with quality controls and the right to grow a small number of plants for personal use, the synthetics would disappear overnight. But that would be crazy, imagine all the tax revenue, the job creation, the reduction in pressure on the health service etc, fuck all that, PEOPLE MIGHT ENJOY THEMSELVES ON TOP OF IT ALL. The world would end.

On a more serious note, I'd really like to see some proper analysis of the 'blends' that have caused deaths, toxicological aswell as pharmacological, I imagine 99% of the hospitalisations caused by SCRA's are due to the incredibly steep dose response curve and possibly less selective receptor binding profiles, hepatoxicty of impurities, allergic reactions to carrier materials in blends and so on.

It is not good enough to just see a headline in a tabloid 'BLACK MAMBA KILLED MY SON' - I want to see the fucking science being done.

^^
Yup. There is an absolutely massive need for actual analysis and toxicology of the shite that's available. It's an affront to scientific curiosity, endeavour, discovery and to humanity when people are left to die for the "all drugs are bad! Look how dangerous they are! The children, the children!" spiel.

It's a disgrace.

(FTR: the issue is usually not lacking specificity, rather the ridiculous selectivity for CB1 without hitting peripheral sub-units that normally display physiological intoxication levels to the user. Expecting a high affinity CB1 agonist to feel like Cannabis will induce seizures before it gets anywhere close).