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Miscellaneous Sarpa Salpa (Alleged Dream Fish)

LordKrishna said:
In zoology it is a rule not to compair animal intelligence to human intelligence. Because we will end up looking for the animal which is most "human".
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Now that I agree with. Who's the say that humans have the standard of intelligence? That has always bothered me about determining animal intelligence. Like how most people say that dogs are smarter than cats, when it seems clear to me that cats are quite a bit more intelligent as a whole than dogs are as a whole. But humans are often more likely to think a dog is smarter than a cat because a dog will follow commands and a cat will do what it wants. But get the respect of a cat and they'll show you their whole selves. Just like humans.
 
Xorkoth said:
Now that I agree with. Who's the say that humans have the standard of intelligence? That has always bothered me about determining animal intelligence. Like how most people say that dogs are smarter than cats, when it seems clear to me that cats are quite a bit more intelligent as a whole than dogs are as a whole. But humans are often more likely to think a dog is smarter than a cat because a dog will follow commands and a cat will do what it wants. But get the respect of a cat and they'll show you their whole selves. Just like humans.
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well another thing to look at is brain size and what areas of the brain are used for what and the size of those area's.

Im not saying I understand fully what all this entails but Iv read some compelling evidence to suggest that humans can only understand intelligence through human intelligence.

bottom line, talking monkeys. ;)
 
Yeah, I think the whole dolphins are super geniuses fad died a long while ago. I believe John Lilly was the biggest proponent of the idea and he wasn't exactly a lucid individual by then...he was quite full of bullshit (well, bullshit and ketamine).
 
I don't think they're super geniuses, but I do believe they're quite intelligent. Their social interactions and complexity of communication seem to scream it.
 
Shulgin isn't an ape. I think it's a bit insulting to suggest that he is. He's a hominid, evolved from an ancestry we share with the great apes. Although opponents of Darwin are famous for it, there's no logical or linguistic reason to refer to humans as apes.

It's true that humans decide what is smart. I understand that to many this seems unfair. As an agnostic, I accept the fact that we may only THINK we're smart. Normally, I would add that I'd like to seem some evidence to support this theory, but as a human, I might not be able to comprehend it with the same academic lucidity as, say, a badger.

I believe that our mental superiority is due to the sophistication of our neural networks. I may be mistaken, and intelligence should not be determined by complexity of language, detailed knowledge of our environment (and other environments), works of art and science, and other human abilities/acheivements. Perhaps, despite their simplistic and underdeveloped brains, otters are in fact the most intelligent mammals on the planet, not for humano-biased neurological/technological reasons, but instead due to the length and texture of their fur.

It's kind of fun to pretend that, for example, the songs of birds are actually detailed discussions on the treatises of Sir Devin Linwell (a seventeenth century seagull philosopher noted for his brave "third wing" theory). That said, I don't think it's something we ought to take seriously.

Peacelove,
Aldousage
 
Aldousage said:
Shulgin isn't an ape. I think it's a bit insulting to suggest that he is. He's a hominid, evolved from an ancestry we share with the great apes. Although opponents of Darwin are famous for it, there's no logical or linguistic reason to refer to humans as apes.

It's true that humans decide what is smart. I understand that to many this seems unfair. As an agnostic, I accept the fact that we may only THINK we're smart. Normally, I would add that I'd like to seem some evidence to support this theory, but as a human, I might not be able to comprehend it with the same academic lucidity as, say, a badger.

I believe that our mental superiority is due to the sophistication of our neural networks. I may be mistaken, and intelligence should not be determined by complexity of language, detailed knowledge of our environment (and other environments), works of art and science, and other human abilities/acheivements. Perhaps, despite their simplistic and underdeveloped brains, otters are in fact the most intelligent mammals on the planet, not for humano-biased neurological/technological reasons, but instead due to the length and texture of their fur.

It's kind of fun to pretend that, for example, the songs of birds are actually detailed discussions on the treatises of Sir Devin Linwell (a seventeenth century seagull philosopher noted for his brave "third wing" theory). That said, I don't think it's something we ought to take seriously.

Peacelove,
Aldousage
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thats fine and dandy and wonderfully written and Im not going to even to pretend that I could write something so articulate but unless you have lived the life of a dolphin, badger or any other animal then you are bond by human perspective. I personally like to live in a world where Im not the end all be all. kinda gives me hope I guess. I mean look at man 60,000 years ago, compare that to us and one could argue that we are more intelligent creatures but we are actually the same.

and sense you brought up evolution, then you would agree that gorillas, chimps and orangs are all great apes? well there genes differ from us by less then 2%, each other by less then 1%. I don't see how they all can be grouped together but we are somehow separate.

I repeat, talking monkeys.
 
fastandbulbous said:
Some species have names that look like someone ate a whole bag of Scrabble letter tiles then vomited up a name (or at least an anagram of the letters brought back up).

I mean how else could you explain 'Pan troglodytes' ? (it's the name for the common chimpanzee) =D
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What about panaeolus subaeruginosa? :D
 
LordKrishna said:
and sense you brought up evolution, then you would agree that gorillas, chimps and orangs are all great apes? well there genes differ from us by less then 2%, each other by less then 1%. I don't see how they all can be grouped together but we are somehow separate.

I repeat, talking monkeys.
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As far as I know, more recent quantification of the genetic differences between humans and our nearest relatives in the animal kingdom puts that figure at around 95%--down from the earlier figure at around 98.5%. Anyways, the base genetic similarities don't mean much, as we share around 40% of our genes with a head of lettuce.

Also, from what I've read, most linguists that have actually looked at the signing chimps from an outside perspective tend to believe the chimps don't actually have a grasp on grammar i.e. they're not "talking," rather they've been conditioned to repeat behaviors that get them rewards--like most any other "smart" animal can be conditioned to do. Media coverage of the phenomenon is also misleading. Documentary producers wait around for hours for a sequence of signs that can be interpreted as meaningful to be strung together--because that's more interesting and profitable to air. The trainers are very protective of their data as well. Like anyone who loves their animals--or, hell, loves another person for that matter--they develop a selective bias for remembering the similarities that reinforce that love and for hiding the differences from themselves that threaten it. They anthropomorphize. Chimps are very smart animals, but they're not as similar to humans as we've been led to believe.

Oh yeah. Trippy fish!
 
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Riemann Zeta said:
I would highly doubt that dolphins are knowledgeably and willfully tripping. Do the higher apes willfully seek out psychedelic compounds? If not, then there is no way in hell that dolphins would be.
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Does our saying that we knowledgeably and willfully seek out psychedelics make it so?
 
Anyways, the base genetic similarities don't mean much, as we share around 40% of our genes with a head of lettuce.
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Some people also show similar intellectual capacity as a head of lettuce as well! =D
 
Dolphins are about as smart as dogs and maybe pigs....

Apes are smarter, crows are extremly intelligent...
 
Hmm, this thread certainly has derailed. Does anyone have anything to say about Sarpa Salpa, the alleged dream fish?
 
yeah, you remember when Terrance Mckenna talked about DMT and how its about casting a net into our consciousness and bringing back information? Maybe he meant actually casting a net out into the ocean and catching this fish and bring back...

no I dont.
 
^^ Nothing important, except it would be cool to have a fishtank full of Sarpa Salpa to put beside my Salvia Divinorum plants ;)
 
in japan they got an ape to learn how to type and when they brought him in the room he typed that he wanted to go play with the other babies.

what is intelegence other than a more "advanced" version of punishment/reward system?
 
LordKrishna said:
yeah, you remember when Terrance Mckenna talked about DMT and how its about casting a net into our consciousness and bringing back information? Maybe he meant actually casting a net out into the ocean and catching this fish and bring back...

no I dont.
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Quite extraordinairy lateral thinking there, Lord, but no- I don't think so. :D

I lol at this threads weavy-wavy way of getting where it is...
 
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