reevaluating my use of psychedelics again

[Cream Gravy?]

I honestly think many of y'all, most significantly (of course...) pmoseman are blowing these effects out of proportion. I really don't think HPP is a terribly large issue, in fact even most psychedelic users I know rarely mention it happening. My visual distortions and altered perceptions while sober honestly give my life that spark that I need to not feel like, "Wow, life is mundane, I should off myself rather than go through life being bored." You can lay claims that people who are afraid of their reality being altered will view these things as negatives (I think most people are terribly afraid of uncertainty, hence monotheistic religions, etc.) but I honestly think the addition of uncertainty to life gave me what I needed to finally enjoy it. I was super depressed through life, till I found psychedelics. They helped reveal purpose in things, they gave me a spirituality I had never known before, and their lasting effects on my perceived reality are a much welcomed change to "God, girls will never like me, life is pointless, I'm depressed." Now it doesn't matter as much that those shallow bitches wont look my way, I know there's more to life.

So I say HPP is a blessing for me. I welcome its effects on my reality. Life sucks a dick, I need something to distract me. The notion that life is static is a construct of a sober society. Eastern belief systems have always looked deeper into things, Idk why us Westerners think that everything has to be this or that, concrete.

 

[LucidSDreamr]

visual trailing and hppd can last for a few years. it cleared up after about two years in my case. tryptamines caused it. I used plenty of phens 5 years after the hppd episode with no reoccurence.

 

[al-laddin]

Which tryptamines caused it if you don't mind me asking and can you give an example of how extreme your HPP was? Thanks LucidSDreamer

 

[Xorkoth]

I agree with most of what you are saying, however again what im trying to get to the bottom of is the fact that it is not strictly "damage". As Ive mentione before in another thread their are studies that suggest that psychedleics seem to activiate neurogenesis which would be accelerated cognition in some degree I believe. I hypothesise that there MAY be some sort of "learned" HPP ...perhaps being in this high state of "plasticity" causes a sort of "imprinting" in the brain. Ok look, Im convinced that I am not merely seeing "visual artifacts" that were already there. Its clearly an effect of past psychedelic use. The sooner more people accept that HPP is more common than we believed in the past the sooner we can get to the bottom of things. Perhaps we may discover that its just an "effect" of entheogen use as opposed to a negative consequence. Further, we may discover that some psychedelics are safer than others to individuals that are susceptible to HPP. Ignoring it is shooting blindly in the dark and hoping to hit your target. I personally want to see more research into this so that we can use entheogens as a species whist diminishing poetential consequences that some aren't prepared to live with. Take a simple casual survey of your colleagues use of entheogens in regards to persisting visual phenomena and report back here if you like.

My own personal experience shows that their is a positive affect that ckearly linked to LSD use. In fact ever since my last one three months (roughly) My mind produces "scenes" and/or movung pictures when I close my eyes. Especially when Im more relaxed. If I wish to ignore them I can, if not I can use this to my advantage. I am an artist and sometimes I can produce inspiration from this.

Further, there is clearly some emmense medicinal, psychological and spiritual value to psychedelic compounds. The fact that they have still not been able to find any neurotoxic effects in proper psychedleics says something to me, especially when neurotoxicity so easily quantifiable in stimulants MDMA and a multitude of other drugs. A simple autopsy can determine damage in the brain from use of the afformentioned substances. I hear one argument implying that we just havnt studied entheogens effect on humans enough to produce the evidence. Sure I guess, but LSD has been researched at least to the same degree as MDMA to my understanding and its been around more than twice as long.

In reading your post, I recall that at 17, when I started smoking cannabis a lot, I began noticing very rapidly that the visual snow I had always experienced when tired or staring at something with unmoving gaze for too long became a pretty constant thing to varying degrees (never any sort of issue but it was something my friends and I frequently talked about, we though it was kind of cool at the time because we liked that we were "hallucinating"). Since I have never really gone a lengthy period of time without either smoking or taking serotonergic psychedelics since then, I don't think that has ever gone away, it's just not even on the level of even noticing it 99% of the time because it's been almost 14 years since then.

I actually get much more "HPP" type visual phenomena from cannabis than from any psychedelic that comes to mind.

And hey, I didn't realize you are an artist, so am I, I'd love to see some of your work sometime. Not in this thread of course, carry on.

 

[Cream Gravy?]

^I feel cannabis has a strong effect on HPP symptoms as well. Roast a bowl, and I can just stare at the background on my desktop as the galaxies expand and contract slightly.

 

[21p]

I'm almost an MD, fwiw...

The answer to your question is still being investigated. You won't find sound opinions in a public forum. Yes, I am aware this is a public forum.

Here is mine: People have their experiences, but everyone is different. There was a kid in my hometown who wasn't the same after a summer of psychedelic abuse.

This really happened to someone I know, in fact everyone I know.... but more specifically: there seems to be a shelf life on these effects if you are experiencing them. Alterations in night vision, decreased emotional affect, temperature regulation, and sleep paralysis are very common. Take home: don't be that guy. The harder you chase, the more disoriented you will become. Remember the freshness of the first experience and recognize it's better left for special occasions if you are responsible for/to other people. Trust me on that one.

PS: stop arguing.

 

[pmoseman]

Not entirely correct. To be diagnosed with a disorder implies that the symptoms are, in fact, disturbing or unsettling. Without the fear/emotive component, no such diagnosis would be made. Which is what the OP seems to be experiencing.

Perhaps this has changed in the most recent DSM.

I'm not calling any of this an 'enhancement' or limiting it to vision. For some people, psychedelics can increase the clarity of all perception, sensory or otherwise.

That would be an enhancement then.

the psychedelic visual alteration demonstrates the philosophical idea of indirect representationalism.

In the ordinary sober state of consciousness, mental representations of reality are so flawless and consistent (they look so *real* and so solid) that the mind is fooled into mistaking them for the actual real (ie external to the mind) things that they represent. So the belief is formed that perception makes direct contact with the external world.

Psychedelic tripping disproves this belief by revealing the representational nature of perceptual content, because when the normally solid physical world starts to undulate and dissolve in the psychedelic state, the mind is no longer able to believe that the objects of perception are external to it. The psychedelic perceptual effect reveals that the mind is isolated within a subjective 'fishbowl'. What was previously taken to be 'actual' reality, is now realised to be a merely 'virtual' reality, the manifest universe is not as real as was previously thought.

HPPD is a mild reminder in the sober state of consciousness of the virtuality of the visible world. It is fine if you are in a positive mind state because it's basically like free tripping, but in the negative mind state it can cause great anxiety if a person struggles to come to terms with the psychedelic revelation. In most cases HPPD clears up substantially within a few years, although continued psychedelic use can always bring it on.

Ya. It certainly can shake people out of a mold. I do not think it is fine regardless of your state of mind. As I said you can harm your vision and experience that if you like, but you still harmed your vision. There can be some uncomfortable feelings but that does not explain HPPD/HPP for me.

People also swing the other way, now they think the world is what they see while tripping, without getting the bigger idea that they always were and still are in confusion with reality.

PS: stop arguing.

No.

I am not even trying to say that HPP totally screws you over or that you aren't entitled to enjoy it personally. I am also not trying to say, oh look brain damage and eye damage, it is just hard to find other words without sounding kind of silly, I think anyways.
I think you can see clearer without that distortion and the overall effect may have caused you or I to pay more attention to our vision, but there is definitely something measurable going on.

 

[21p]

I am not even trying to say that HPP totally screws you over or that you aren't entitled to enjoy it personally. I am also not trying to say, oh look brain damage and eye damage, it is just hard to find other words without sounding kind of silly, I think anyways.
I think you can see clearer without that distortion and the overall effect may have caused you or I to pay more attention to our vision, but there is definitely something measurable going on.

It IS brain damage and eye damage IF it affects your eyesight, bottom line and important distinction. We don't know if it is permanent or not. Remember, the first generation to really use psychedelics en masse is just entering retirement. We don't know whether the effects/damage last a lifetime. Anti-psychotics will inhibit your ability to perceive the potential damage dealt to your visual cortex, but those drugs can be incapacitating and are used for real psychoses. I don't mean to be rude, but it seems you asked the question with some concept of what you believed and are now defending it with your own experience.

Your feelings are beside the matter of what is actually happening in your brain. Occam's razor is the best bet here: if there are permanent effects, they stem from misfiring of neurotransmitters. This would indicate physical enzymatic alteration or extremely high affinity/covalent bonding of rarely replaced pumps/receptors in the neuron body. Because the drug affects almost every single part of the brain, including the brain stem, you can see why no one is giving you a satisfactory answer (until now, hopefully). It's a good question and asking it is very important. I think the answer will come to us when we can understand and treat schizophrenia, possibly as a result of studying this subject. BUT...

Sometimes we just don't know (yet), my friend!

 

[pmoseman]

They did do some animal studies and tested people's abilities as well and found a distinct difference.

 

[21p]

you're probably right, but please be more specific: how long after tripping, how often did they trip, were these people in treatment, etc...

the point I was making: if it doesn't Affect you, it's not an illness. That's the medical definition, straight outta the book.

ADD is an illness in certain environments. See where I'm going?

There are people who take small doses of psychedelics to enhance their creativity, etc... Those people are idiots, imo, but that's just it: my opinion until proven otherwise. I inserted the bit about medical training because I have studied many of the mechanisms you're asking about in detail. If you dissect further, you can see my studies are based on a consensus of opinions of what is happening, and I believe I'm qualified to study these things.

Cigarettes kill people. We can collectively agree on that now and can state they affect your health, because we know the biochemical mechanisms underneath the destruction of your lungs. This is a boundary for the argument. If you apply logic to these questions, research is still the answer.

 

[al-laddin]

It IS brain damage and eye damage IF it affects your eyesight, bottom line and important distinction. We don't know if it is permanent or not. Remember, the first generation to really use psychedelics en masse is just entering retirement. We don't know whether the effects/damage last a lifetime. Anti-psychotics will inhibit your ability to perceive the potential damage dealt to your visual cortex, but those drugs can be incapacitating and are used for real psychoses. I don't mean to be rude, but it seems you asked the question with some concept of what you believed and are now defending it with your own experience.

Your feelings are beside the matter of what is actually happening in your brain. Occam's razor is the best bet here: if there are permanent effects, they stem from misfiring of neurotransmitters. This would indicate physical enzymatic alteration or extremely high affinity/covalent bonding of rarely replaced pumps/receptors in the neuron body. Because the drug affects almost every single part of the brain, including the brain stem, you can see why no one is giving you a satisfactory answer (until now, hopefully). It's a good question and asking it is very important. I think the answer will come to us when we can understand and treat schizophrenia, possibly as a result of studying this subject. BUT...

Sometimes we just don't know (yet), my friend!

Mr "almost MD", how do you explain the lack of evidence of brain damage and the actual evidence of NEUROGENESIS casued by psychedelics? They can quantify the damage done from MDMA and amphetamine use...and numerous other substances... YOu say "they are working on it". Whos working on it? Where? and whats your source, how do you know? Do you have any links? YOu also say anyone who uses "low dose psychedelics to increase creativity " idiots. why? You claim to use psychedesics as well. In what way do you use psychedelics that is any more worthy of praise than anyone elses?

http://psychedelicfrontier.com/low-dose-psychedelics-increase-neurogenesis-help-mice-unlearn-fear/

Johns Hopkins university BTW is studying the positive effects of psychedelics on the brain, and showing remarkable results so PLEASE again, where is your evidence. Im calling you out!

-Idiot psychedelic user

 

[21p]

Mr "almost MD", how do you explain the lack of evidence of brain damage and the actual evidence of NEUROGENESIS casued by psychedelics? They can quantify the damage done from MDMA and amphetamine use...and numerous other substances... YOu say "they are working on it". Whos working on it? Where? and whats your source, how do you know? Do you have any links? YOu also say anyone who uses "low dose psychedelics to increase creativity " idiots. why? You claim to use psychedesics as well. In what way do you use psychedelics that is any more worthy of praise than anyone elses?

http://psychedelicfrontier.com/low-dose-psychedelics-increase-neurogenesis-help-mice-unlearn-fear/

Johns Hopkins university BTW is studying the positive effects of psychedelics on the brain, and showing remarkable results so PLEASE again, where is your evidence. Im calling you out!

-Idiot psychedelic user

You're afraid I'm right?

The article you linked discusses an isolated observation on a single portion of a rat brain. If you think this research is proof it's a good idea to ingest psychoactive drugs every day in hopes of promoting neurogenesis, maybe you can tell us what type of neurogenesis has been observed in humans.

Neurogenesis - the growth of neurons. Where does it mention the benefits of neuron growth? Are these neurons regrown in an orderly histological pattern? Is neurotransmitter firing the same throughout the rest of the rat's brain? Do we even know what the physiological balance of neurotransmitter/neuron receptor should be in a human?

I welcome your thesis. I won't debate credentials, but trust I have a degree in biochemistry and am finishing up at a US-accredited med school. I'm studying for boards and don't have time to do your research for you, but nobody with an idea of what they're doing is gonna recommend your lifestyle. If you're not doing this in a lab or research hospital, you're most definitely not gonna find a doctor who would condone it or who would be fooled by such an isolated study. Sorry bud.

 

[motiv311]

Only shrooms and ayahuasca from now my fiend. Oops I mean friend lol

 

[St3ve]

I've noticed some changes in vision after taking acid on a weekly basis for a number of months a few years ago. As mentioned before in this thread; auras around streetlights or carlights were much more prominent to the point that if a car drove up a dark road in front of me I'd mostly just see huge rays coming out of the headlights with a sort of rainbow spectrum in between them, in a way blinding me from everything around the car. Also 2Dizing of branches on trees making them appear more like a spider web than disconnected branches. Quickly darting around would leave mild tracers around objects and blurring from cars driving by quickly. The intensity of these effects gradually faded away months after stopping LSD for a while. Since then I only took LSD on more sporadic occasions and would notice similar vision after effects for to a week or so afterwards. Smoking cannabis will bring all of them back, but they fade away when I sober up.

25i-nBOME at a rather ridiculous dosage (4x0.5mg) produced a sort of dotted hallucinations while I was on it. For up to about a month after that I had increased visual noise that looked like the dotted patterns on the 25i when looking at the sky or large mono-coloured surfaces. Unlike that acid induced after effects, these dot things don't come back when smoking weed...

 

[al-laddin]

St3ve. Interesting my friend thanks for the input. I have a feeling nbome caused me the most visual issues of any psychedelic and I am pretty convinced that these chemicals are dangerous even when they do not produce seemingly toxic physiological effects. My gut tells me these are nasty for the mind and body. I tried 25c and did enjoy its hedonistic nature, however.

Motiv311 ..On Ayahuasaca and mushrooms. While I do agree that chemicals found in nature are going to likely be more compatible with human biology than synthetics (in regards to psychedelics), we musnt forget that some of the most toxic and dangerous chemicals are found in nature. May I ask why you came to this conclusion.

Yes Xorkoth we should share some art with each other. I feel that psychedelics have had a huge influence on my work. Maybe I will start a thread somewhere and share my work soon In ragards to cannabis bringing on psychedelic like effects, I do find that interesting because to my knowledge cannabinoids do not effect the serotonin receptors, I wonder what the chemical action in the brain is that would cause this effect, as it seems to be many times more "psychedelic" for people who have indulged in actual psychedelic compounds previously.

 

[motiv311]

It's just my religion. I believe they could possibly Cure you if you intentions are pure

 

[pmoseman]

... to my knowledge cannabinoids do not effect the serotonin receptors, I wonder what the chemical action in the brain is that would cause this effect, as it seems to be many times more "psychedelic" for people who have indulged in actual psychedelic compounds previously.

To my knowledge serotonin is not the cause of psychedelic response.

It's just my religion. I believe they could possibly Cure you if you intentions are pure

My religion is that robbing banks cures cancer.

 

[al-laddin]

Well from my understanding the "classical " psychedelics ..LSD, mescaline, psilocybin mimic the serotonin molecule, and this is how they attatch to receptors, by essentially behaving like serotonin. Hence the term seratonergic psychedelics. MDMA and MDA actually cause a seratonon flood release. We don't know much about how they work, however.

Anyway my point is that from my understanding cannabis has zero interaction with serotonin or its respective receptors, which is what confuses me, but perhaps cannabis' exacerbation on HPPD and causing one to reexperience acute symptoms of seratonergic psychedelics may be the key to understanding how psychedelics actually work. Perhaps theres a mode of action that has gone undetected by medical science all this time and the seratonergic action is only what we see at face value. If this is the case then this may be why the damage that is occurring (if any damage is occurring) is going undetected. It may merely be a case of looking in the wrong place. My gut still tells me, however that its not "damage" but linked to neurogenesis and psychedelics ability to excelerate neuronal growth to an unnatural degree. Again, some could call this damage.....if you grew a third leg out of your torso this wouldn't necessarily be a good thing and it may cause your quality of living some "damage", or you could remain positive and find some use for this awkward appendage.

 

[al-laddin]

I would lke to add pmoseman, that my HPP is negative in some ways , sure. My night vision isn't what it used to be. My indulgence in psychedelic materials has slowed considerably. I indulge a 2 maybe three times a year. I have had HPP since I was sixteen. It seemed to wane for the first few years but Ill never know because the initial four years I blamed on my perception but looking back it was the PTSD like emotional symptoms that where the real trouble and when those dissipated I stopped noticing the visual aspect. So after four years I began using mushrooms for the next twelve years with no change for the negative, but plebty of positive. I even used LSD a few times and noticed no change. It wasn't until the last few years when I decided to try an nBOME and LSD in the same week that I noticed an increase in visual symptoms. Anyway my point is that my night vision has worsened over the years but to my understanding this may be a natural digression of eyesight. However, my "myinds eye" is extrememly vivid, entertaining and at times helpful with my creativity. Ive gotten definite positive after effects.

 

[pmoseman]

Do you think it was the slowing down of use that could have prevented the build up of HPP?

I am guessing that what you did at 16 was more than 2-3 times a year.

Then when it reoccurred it would be because you dosed twice in one week.

....

I am not familiar with PTSD. Where you diagnosed at 16 and was PTSD even formally diagnosed back then?

The only thing I know about PTSD is that it is theoretically a defense mechanism to stay out of combat.