Quitting Methadone (that bastard)

[plumbus-nine]

OH DXM u mean dextromethorphan? That thing made me have instant wd. When i was on Methadone i was precribed dxm, in 15 mins i feel so sick, my back becomes painful especially on my spinal cord.
I am also allergic to Clozaril. If i take that i feel extreme muscle pain and extreme spinal cord pain, then there was like electricity flares from the base of my spine to my brain causing me seizure. Brrrr

I avoid dxm and clozaril like a plaque

Yeah, DXM is dextromethorphan.
Weird, it is a very weak mu agonist but should definitely not be able to displace methadone. I never used it for opioid withdrawal myself but read from others that it might or might not work, but never about precipitated withdrawal. Its metabolite dextrorphan is a mu antagonist though, in theory again it shouldn't displace methadone but the only explanation I can come up with is that you are a CYP2D6 enzyme fast metabolizer so ended up with a high level of DXO and that somehow displacing the methadone.

Clozapin/clozaril is heavy shit, once somebody gave one to me early into my drug career when I was still ignorant about titrating stuff etc, it felt like my whole body was made out of gum, and it can be toxic to your white blood bodies.. all these antipsychotics are heavy but this one is also weird.

Well, memantine has a different profile than DXM and is mentioned in a bunch of papers about clinical trials to lower opioid dosage, it doesn't seem to induce any withdrawal even in heroic dosages (60+mg).

 

[neversickanymore]

Vitamin D and Its Potential Interplay With Pain Signaling Pathways

About 50 million of the U.S. adult population suffer from chronic pain. It is a complex disease in its own right for which currently available analgesics have been deemed woefully inadequate since ~20% of the sufferers derive no benefit. Vitamin D, known ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

there is a ton of info in there

but this stands out for what we are looking at, but leaves out vitamin D levels of chronic treatment with opiates IN GENERAL.

Vitamin D Levels and OPIOID Use​

Low serum vitamin D levels have been linked to the development of opioid side effects and dependency. Among opioid-dependent patients recruited from the methadone maintenance treatment (MMT), more than half recorded a low vitamin D status (182). This common association deserves attention since high prevalence of chronic pain has also been observed in drug-dependent populations (183, 184). Chronic muscle and joint pain are common features of opioid withdrawal and are usually attributed to the effect of methadone (185). But, whether these conditions or other forms of chronic pain are affected by altered nutritional or metabolic factors related to vitamin D deficiency in drug-dependent populations is still unknown. Also, it should be noted that long-term therapy with some medications commonly used to treat chronic pain, such as steroids, antiepileptic drugs, and anticonvulsants can decrease levels of vitamin D (186–188). Therefore, it could be appropriate to recommend vitamin D supplements when levels are either deficient or insufficient with regards to the patient's medical conditions, current medications and skin exposure to sunlight. Nonetheless, vitamin D supplementation was recently shown to improve cognitive function and mental health in patients undergoing the MMT program

I have been alerting people about this for almost a decade. IF YOUR ON METHADONE OR PROLONGED PAIN TREATMENT,, GET YOUR VIT D CHECKED OR JUST BUY A BOTTLE AND TAKE IT DAILY,

 

[Fertile]

I seem to remember that someone patented a compound medicine composed of an opioid and DXM stating that it recued tolerance and dependence. I seem to also remember that it didn't reach it's clinical endpoints and so never received a marketing licence. I mean MOST candidates don't make it to market, I'm not especially singling this one out for ridicule.

I used to vaguely know a guy who used the name RoboJunky on Opiophile. He ended up with a truly huge opioid dependence because he was a close friend of SuperJunkie who was a chemistry student. They both ended up shooting fentanyl every 20 minutes. Since they were both hopelessly dependent they got less and less 'clandestine' until SuperJunkie got caught and sentenced to 10 years in jail. Meanwhile RoboJunkie's family take him around endless doctors in the hope of finding a substitution and nothing worked. BUT he vouchsafed that methoxetamine and 3-OH PCP were both excellent at stopping his terrible and long-lived withdrawal.

I've heard multiple stories of chemists breaking rule 1. Death & prison are the most common outcomes.

I don't KNOW, but I'm guessing that the N-phenylethyl moiety of fentanyl means it's binding to an extra site. About the only compound that MIGHT work is R-4066 or more specifically, the acetyl ester. It's x212 morphine in potency with a T½ of 20 hours it could be given to people 3 times a week.

 

[Pissed_and_messed]

When i take bupre my right head felt numb and i literally have amnesia. I went to supermarket and drag someone else's cart. Then i took all the same things i already took. This girl then tapped me and said, " Hey u that's my cart!"
I was so shock! Like wtf

other opioids make me just not able to concentrate on nodding doses. Bupre makes me just completely dumb. Worst dumb, like swearing how dumb it makes me under neighbours open window. Not-funny-dumb. Maybe-I-am-better-without-dumb.

 

[DeathIndustrial88]

I hear bupe also attacks the heart valves. I have been on bupe over a decade and just so happen to have a dodgy heart valve.

Great.

That's all I need to worry about next. Although I had an EKG done in May & they said everything was normal with my heart. I had a day where I had a constricting gripping pain the center of my chest for 24hrs straight. So I thought I had had a heart attack & went to the doctor, where they did an EKG.

I still think it sucks that bupe is capable of these things, while other "more dangerous" opioids generally aren't.


Last May I felt like I had had a stroke or anuerysm for a week straight. Hard to describe feelings.
Had a catscan and nothing was found then either.

Either it's my conversion disorder or something is affecting me & doctors just don't care to have to put in the extra work to dig deeper into it.

I wonder if these cardiovascular issues are seen on higher doses or any dosage.


I'd love to get off of bupe for safety reasons if our pathetic government would allow the options to use other opioids. But they'd rather some one have a blood vessel burst in their brain than 'feel high'.

 

[HerbsQuit]

Guys i have some questions:
1. If i ask for Pregabalin/ Gabapentin, is it taken with tapered Codeine or is it supposed to be taken like: Stop Codeine this instant and take Pregabalin/ Gabapentin instead?
2. How does it feel like to be on Pregabalin/ Gabapentin?
3. If i take those am i still allowed to take small doses of Benzo? Or the 0.15mg Clonidine?
4. I have some Kratom too but when i was on MTD if i take them, i don't feel high, just sleepy, but next day i had severe wd so now i havent been taking them. I have only tried the Red Sunda and Choco Bentuangie. Red Sunda made me sleepy at 2 pills, mildly energized at 1 pill, Choco Bentu just gave me a warm muscle relaxant feeling at 2 pills. I have just taken those 3 times in pill form.

I was thinking like..hmm..maybe i can use it to taper my Codeine. But then i'm also like...it won't be funny if i get wd and in the end i have to use Codeine to get off Kratom when i want to get off Codeine after riding out this MTD wd in the first place

 

[DeathIndustrial88]

Guys i have some questions:
1. If i ask for Pregabalin/ Gabapentin, is it taken with tapered Codeine or is it supposed to be taken like: Stop Codeine this instant and take Pregabalin/ Gabapentin instead?
2. How does it feel like to be on Pregabalin/ Gabapentin?
3. If i take those am i still allowed to take small doses of Benzo? Or the 0.15mg Clonidine?
4. I have some Kratom too but when i was on MTD if i take them, i don't feel high, just sleepy, but next day i had severe wd so now i havent been taking them. I have only tried the Red Sunda and Choco Bentuangie. Red Sunda made me sleepy at 2 pills, mildly energized at 1 pill, Choco Bentu just gave me a warm muscle relaxant feeling at 2 pills. I have just taken those 3 times in pill form.

I was thinking like..hmm..maybe i can use it to taper my Codeine. But then i'm also like...it won't be funny if i get wd and in the end i have to use Codeine to get off Kratom when i want to get off Codeine after riding out this MTD wd in the first place

1. You could taper the codeine with the gaba if you so choose. I don't know about codeine specifically off-hand, but I know gabapentin can interfere with the metabolism of some opioids, hydrodocone is one for example. I've been actively feeling good on hydros & taken a gabapentin only to feel like I'm in withdrawal an hour later. Because it lowers the levels of hydro in the blood. But it can potentiate other opioids.
2. It can give you a bit of energy at first, a little euphoria, make you feel a little wobbly, dreamy & sleepy. With daily use, tolerance goes up fast. And of course the euphoria & energy disappear & you're just left with the unbalanced, sedated & lethargic feeling. You can bring it back with tolerance breaks, but even then the experience doesn't ever come back as something to write home about. Many people report varying experiences too. I have no experience with lyrica, ,but it's basically the faster acting more potent version of gabapentin.
3. Yes, just be careful to watch for increased respiratory depression. You really have to know your own body's tolerance. Mixing these could cause an OD, however if you're under doctor's care, you should be okay. I was once prescribed buprenorphine, clonazepam, gabapentin & clonidine all at once. Along with a sleeping pill. But I had a massive tolerance to buprenorphine anyway, so there wasn't any real added respiratory depression.

 

[Uknowit4now]

Sorry to hear about all this crap ypu have to go thru, sounds like a nightmare a mess just pandemonium wreaking havoc on your body. I hate to say it but you gotta clean your body out, drop the levels, so you can take something that would actually help. I know it seems "impossible " cause your in so much pain. Well ill tell ya pain i was taking over 1000mgs "yes 1000" of methadone per day this was many years ago and i got them from my primary doctor and one day i freaked out and took my methadone bottles and all my opiate meds brought them to my doctor and said f this i am done taking this shit... he asked "are you sure about that? And i said Yeap i sure am... well needless to say about 48hrs later is when all that pain started kicking in.. and holy crap, you wanna talk aboit your bones bending inside your body.. lol... took me just about 2 months to feel somewhat normal again but it happened and i lived...the point is ypu wont die.. ypu just gotta make yourself believe you can do it. I dont think it's worth polluting your body with other crap. In fact benzos will only exacerbate anxiety driven from opiate wd. Been there done that.. and i got an extra 20 years of using dope on ya.. lol.. so you got an up on me but too bad you cpukd get backnon the clinc one that was close and have them drop .5mg every week. That would be ideal.. otherwise you will be kicking for a while.. but again dont trade it off for benzos thats another shitty kick.. al it takes is 3 days and agter that when ypu stop benzos youll habe those bursts of anxiety.. whxih are just so terrible.. those things are only good when your on them once off the nightmare begins again..

 

[BenzoEnthusiast]

Sorry to hear about all this crap ypu have to go thru, sounds like a nightmare a mess just pandemonium wreaking havoc on your body. I hate to say it but you gotta clean your body out, drop the levels, so you can take something that would actually help. I know it seems "impossible " cause your in so much pain. Well ill tell ya pain i was taking over 1000mgs "yes 1000" of methadone per day this was many years ago and i got them from my primary doctor and one day i freaked out and took my methadone bottles and all my opiate meds brought them to my doctor and said f this i am done taking this shit... he asked "are you sure about that? And i said Yeap i sure am... well needless to say about 48hrs later is when all that pain started kicking in.. and holy crap, you wanna talk aboit your bones bending inside your body.. lol... took me just about 2 months to feel somewhat normal again but it happened and i lived...the point is ypu wont die.. ypu just gotta make yourself believe you can do it. I dont think it's worth polluting your body with other crap. In fact benzos will only exacerbate anxiety driven from opiate wd. Been there done that.. and i got an extra 20 years of using dope on ya.. lol.. so you got an up on me but too bad you cpukd get backnon the clinc one that was close and have them drop .5mg every week. That would be ideal.. otherwise you will be kicking for a while.. but again dont trade it off for benzos thats another shitty kick.. al it takes is 3 days and agter that when ypu stop benzos youll habe those bursts of anxiety.. whxih are just so terrible.. those things are only good when your on them once off the nightmare begins again..

A thousand ml? Like liquid methadone?Jesus Christ.
I think that would kill me lol.

 

[Uknowit4now]

A thousand ml? Like liquid methadone?Jesus Christ.
I think that would kill me lol.

I took pills never liquid... so mg's vs ml's i always got the 40mg pills a month supply at a time plus my percs... yea you take a 1000mg of methadone you be nodding for a few days there.. off an on.. lol.. i was a monster.. before the methadone i was taking 40 to 60 percs a day easily id always start with 15 then take 5 every 15 min lol... by the time the doctor decided to put me on methadone i didnt even know that you only had to take a few, id just eat them up like a dam easter basket my whole script in a week..

 

[HerbsQuit]

Day 8
I woke up positive and happy. Took my usual 100mg codeine around 5am.

Then before my next dose at 11am, around 9am i tried experimenting...with curcumin.

I dissolved 2tablespoon in a teacup and take gulp by gulp to see how it feels. This is already like 4 hours from my Codeine. By gulp 5 i hit the sweet spot, my body feels warm and relaxed. I even had slight Euphoria as if i was on MTD.

Then i tried two more gulps and it felt more like muscle relaxant.

However, the side effect soon come hitting me like shit. Acid reflux, legs sore, muscle pain. And i felt burning from up down to my lower stomach. Nausea.

BUT, what is strange is even with all that pain, during my next dose my brain somewhat didn't really CRAVE opiate.

Usually i cannot wait for my next dose since morning is always the worst wd.

And i managed to take diazepam 2.5mg and eat first before taking my dose, which i only took 50mg.

Around 5:30pm i still don't crave opiate but i took 100mg codeine anyways just coz i was afraid of wd.

Then weird thing happened. I felt high!

At 10pm i took 50mg only and vit D3

I also started feeling cold. My skin is so cold to the touch, my lips were blueish in color. I checked my temp, normal.

But the cold is so uncomfortable making my muscles spasm. My stomach also was gassy. Did i overdosed on Codeine?!?

I couldn't sleep. So i got up, ate some choco cake, it burns also from top to bottom.

Then i remembered what i used while was on MTD to get warm, vit B complex, the Blue Neurobion. I took that. Fall asleep but not for long.

This time i woke up at 3:30pm coz of generalized muscle pain on both arms and legs like when i was on MTD.

I have no idea why, was it the MTD withdrawal?
Was it coz of the Codeine overdose? But hey i took LESS Codeine yesterday. Just total of 300mg instead of 350-400 usual dose.

Im gonna go out later to restock breakfast and stuff. I have social anxiety now. When i go out i worry my neighborhood knows i am on wd so usually i have to take xanax just to calm me down.

When i woke up this morning i took Codeine first 50mg then waited 45mins before i took another 50mg. Felt high but not really. Like just 50-60%. I don't really know of Codeine high becoz i never abused them. But it doesn't feel good. No warm relaxed muscle or euphoria. Just high a little.

Also instead of constipation i had adverse reaction, as soon as i took my second pill i ran to bathroom...



Everyday different symptoms....

I start to worry 400mg a day is too much i need to reduce but they only give me in 50mg capsules. I want to cut to 80mg 4x a day but dunno how to cut capsules. Damn. How could i be a H addict for over a decade but dunno shit about anything.

I was too overly loyal to H coz at the time Mr. H was so pure and so cheap. Not cut with anything. Brownish in color, and circled like a dragon on foil. 0.1gram was just $2.

My only regret was (past tense) i wasnt born earlier, if by that time i was 40, had lots of money and shit, i would bought a TON.

 

[neversickanymore]

I think you have to stabilize your web, your overall system, instead of trying to micromanage it with chemicals.

 

[HerbsQuit]

I think you have to stabilize your web, your overall system, instead of trying to micromanage it with chemicals.

Whats a web

 

[negrogesic]

Is methadone x5 morphine in potency? If you look at most conversion tables, they give a daily equivalent not dose equivalent. A few nations do the right thing and specify (R) methadone (it's the (S) methadone that is cardiotoxic) AKA L-Polamidon™ and levomethadone. I thought it (the (R) isomer) was around morphine in potency?

I mean, I'm happy to be wrong, but I did look at many closely related compounds (all racemic mixtures) and they were all around ½ morphine in potency.

Although HerbsQuit is happily off methadone (and I think that is a good move), I've noticed some slightly worrying details of methadone. Taken orally it's bioavailability can vary between 30% and 80%. Many sources give slightly different values but they all have a huge range. Now it's supposed to accumulate in the body so that you will over 7-10 days reach a steady state. BUT. People given methadone chronically actually metabolise it faster so you might actually start getting lower and lower plasma levels over the months and indeed years.

I mention this because I am prescribed OxyContin for chronic severe pain but it isn't working out. My own pharmacist suggested that I might do better with methadone (Physeptone tablets) but it seems like most doctors don't know much about methadone. Sorry to hijack thread. Very anxious.

Methadone is more potent than morphine, multifold. Plasma levels build in the blood so over time it's potency becomes more apparent.

This accumulation is partially why it is so dangerous and notorious for causing accidental overdose. The other reason is simply its potency, 60mg is probably enough to kill a non-tolerant adult (whereas morphine requires a multiple of that). The tricky pharmacokinetics combined with high potency makes for a pretty dangerous opioid. The # of methadone overdose deaths relative to the # of methadone prescriptions is much higher than any other commonly prescribed opioid, and from what I recall a fair number of these cases (something like 20%) are overdoses where only methadone is involved.

As far as a pain medication, it can work but you'll need to dose multiple times a day. Methadone lasts a long time, but the analgesic effects are pretty short lived.

Getting on methadone is a big decision, particularly for chronic pain, because once you get on it your tolerance rises to such a point that, should you decide to get off, you might not find a doctor willing to prescribe you an equivalent amount of say oxycodone, etc.

I like methadone very much as a recreational drug, but I can't comment on its useful for chronic pain.

 

[HerbsQuit]

I think you have to stabilize your web, your overall system, instead of trying to micromanage it with chemicals.

Oh ok i think i understand what u mean. Just take my usual dose and slowly taper rather than mix with herbs and other stuff (experimenting). Thank you i will try this.

 

[lolis my thesis]

Hi I have been on methadone for 20 years. Excellent and cheap pain medication; and lasts 6 hours for the pain. but the stigma attached makes me wanna stop; under 20mgs/day and I change my mind. My primary physician knows almost nothing about my condition; wants me to be better thru attitude and antidepressants while I can't move my head without pain, even medicated. Wants me on antidepressants and suboxone. But my pain doc believes me and I am on a pain contract, so at least I get 30 days at a time. but he's gonna retire and no young doc will be so liberal with the Rx pad.

I have cervical instabilty; causes pain and weakness and lately constant headaches and brain fog. Even though Ive had two discs fused; they never addressed the pain and weakness. One more surgery I hope then I can get off the drugs, believe me I have tried everything and can barely drive or work. Injections are not cutting it; one vertebrae is 3mm off. Or I can try for disability and give up activities. It sucks tbh. I think its been my problem all along, but undiagnosed due to common cervical osteoarthitis and bulging discs. I take 10 mg/4 times a day; I can be comfy at 30mgs/day unless I have a flare-up. I also take norco(vicodin 10mg); a flare up causes me breakthru pain. But I go on and off norco as my pain doc is pretty understanding. I am on a pain contract; so I can't smoke weed or drink alcohol.
But Negrogesic is right; it was a big decision and I kinda regret it; oxycontin was $500/month; and methadone was $5. That made my decision easier. Sorry if I derailed your thread just wanted to give you my 2 cents and say you are a strong person to endure withdrawal! inspiring as I want to be off it and relatively pain free. One more surgery will help give up and never go off it. The DEA in USA wants opiods for cancer or hospice only. The younger docs fear their license will be pulled if they treat pain with painkillers. To hear suboxone could cause heart issues sucks; I already reduced from 60 mgs/day on methadone due to potential long qt(different heart problem). Cheers, stay strong!

 

[neversickanymore]

Hi I have been on methadone for 20 years. Excellent and cheap pain medication; and lasts 6 hours for the pain. but the stigma attached makes me wanna stop; under 20mgs/day and I change my mind. My primary physician knows almost nothing about my condition; wants me to be better thru attitude and antidepressants while I can't move my head without pain, even medicated. Wants me on antidepressants and suboxone. But my pain doc believes me and I am on a pain contract, so at least I get 30 days at a time. but he's gonna retire and no young doc will be so liberal with the Rx pad.

I have cervical instabilty; causes pain and weakness and lately constant headaches and brain fog. Even though Ive had two discs fused; they never addressed the pain and weakness. One more surgery I hope then I can get off the drugs, believe me I have tried everything and can barely drive or work. Injections are not cutting it; one vertebrae is 3mm off. Or I can try for disability and give up activities. It sucks tbh. I think its been my problem all along, but undiagnosed due to common cervical osteoarthitis and bulging discs. I take 10 mg/4 times a day; I can be comfy at 30mgs/day unless I have a flare-up. I also take norco(vicodin 10mg); a flare up causes me breakthru pain. But I go on and off norco as my pain doc is pretty understanding. I am on a pain contract; so I can't smoke weed or drink alcohol.
But Negrogesic is right; it was a big decision and I kinda regret it; oxycontin was $500/month; and methadone was $5. That made my decision easier. Sorry if I derailed your thread just wanted to give you my 2 cents and say you are a strong person to endure withdrawal! inspiring as I want to be off it and relatively pain free. One more surgery will help give up and never go off it. The DEA in USA wants opiods for cancer or hospice only. The younger docs fear their license will be pulled if they treat pain with painkillers. To hear suboxone could cause heart issues sucks; I already reduced from 60 mgs/day on methadone due to potential long qt(different heart problem). Cheers, stay strong!

your pain dock seems right on.. analgesic effects of methadone are commonly listed at eight hours,, but my experience was certainly 6 to 6.5 hours. Does Tylenol or a nsai work by itself for break through?

 

[neversickanymore]

Oh ok i think i understand what u mean. Just take my usual dose and slowly taper rather than mix with herbs and other stuff (experimenting). Thank you i will try this.

We all are comprised of an amazing and intertwined complex system.. so the "web" refers to a spider web and is a metaphor I used to represent the complex inter dynamics that are us. homeostasis of our complex system is what we are looking to achieve.

Look at you timelines.. your regularly adding in substances to try and self regulate the incredibly complex inter dynamics of your system, that no one yet fully understands.. well except many of us do unconsciously.

So most peoples systems know what to do to get back to homeostasis.. but its fucking kinda slow and the process is uncomfortable to say the least. so we go in and try and help the process along by adding chemicals that may make us temporarily feel "decent" or sorta better.

The thing is we need to add the right chemicals or we just continue to scramble the system for a little bit of reprieve.. only to find ourselves back at it after our attempt wears off and as the process evolves our conditions often worsen and we deal with side effects.

So how do we help the system return to homeostasis on its own? We have to add in the behaviors and chemicals that benefit and promote our and its end goals.

Can't just try and manipulate single strands, its a web. Big pictures and some time and some bloody misery,

I also get it there are so many people that need and deserve pain relief. both physical and emotional.

but when you are treated with something that only is beneficial short term and makes things worse long term we need to come up with much better.

 

[lolis my thesis]

I agree; but pain that won't go away is a quandry; could have had oxycontin when it started, went thru with surgeries when they thought it would help, went to their churches, went to thier institutional learning facilities....wait.
Advil, has been the best pain reliever. When I have a flare up; I have to take advil. I take it around the clock for the last two years. Occipital headache is a new one that made me think it's cervical instability. Nothing else really explains my symptoms; I never went to a doc before whiplash numero uno. Then whiplash again in 2017. I took advil for years before narcotics; but then stopped for awhile.
Alas, I do like the narcotics as they have a certain kick. Although methadone really lets me move my neck with notably less pain as well. Prednisone is effective too but try to stay away.
But going to another doc and taking his antidepressants and mood stabilizers in order to get off of benzos and narcotics, or switch to suboxone, seems futile.

I did not need a new primary; but my old one retired, but my pain doc already tried me on antidepressants and mood stabilizers but since they didn't help, stopped them
But I feel I am getting strongarmed by my new primary, nurse practicer.
But on state insurance I do get free therapy and pysch care. so it goes back to sounding knowledgeable; try my damnest to get my pain under control; cuz I will have to roll with the narcotic and benzo tapers. Whether I like it or not; doctor feelgoods are going the way of the dinosaur. Been active surfer for 30 years, 20 of which in pain, but not the last two years due to calf cramps and sore legs.
Thanks for reading, anyone and everyone!

 

[neversickanymore]

Which mood stabilizer if you want to share?