Heroin Quitting Heroin with Buprenorphine fast taper

[Sparkoid]

PAWS is tough, but not insurmountable by any means.
Stay strong, my friend!

Well let's hope so eh lol? I've been using since June and my pattern of use was not such that I'd get totally nodded out. I tended to use at a maintenance level. The optimistic side of me hopes this means I'm not going to suffer quite as much as some who were on it for years etc.

 

[Sparkoid]

Well I'm going to keep this as a diary and do regular updates for others who may benefit.

as per my previous post I took 2mg Buprenorphine last night after waiting as long as I could and until I was into full withdrawal. I took that dose in 0.25mg increments as I wasn't sure what would be just enough. It may be I could have got away with slightly less because the moment the last dose kicked in I was out like a light but then it was 4am and I'd kicking and flailing my arms around all night. I was exhausted. I've also got some Zopiclone to help sleep and I took one an hour or so before so I did sleep deeply from about 4.30am until 10.30am.

Anyway the withdrawal has started breaking through that dose about 3pm this afternoon and right now I've taken 1mg Buprenorphine (it's 8.30pm). Interestingly one of the main symptoms that breaks through first is not the ones you'd think like runny nose etc. It is RLS and that can't stop moving shit. I do have some aches and runny nose but the RLS comes through much more and out of the minor symptoms is the one I find the hardest to ignore.

Anyway apart from that I'm on the emotional roller coaster, one minute feeling great, the next crying at cat food adverts. Nothing like it was last night though before I took the first Buprenorphine.

I'm hoping the 1mg I've taken tonight will be enough to tide me over and let me sleep. If I have to I will be prepared to 1mg late tonight if sleep is not happening.

An interesting side note. As well being partial to smoking H I'm no stranger to coke and buprenorphine is having a weird secondary effect in so far as I have not been tempted to take any coke. I have some readily available but I'm just not that bothered. I quickly googled it and boom...there are hits for it being trialled and known to reduce fiending for cocaine in users.

I'm not sure I'd recommend Buprenorphine for someone who has a cocaine addiction though as all you have then is a Buprenorphine addiction instead lol. Just interesting if you are trying to get completely clean as I am.

 

[Sparkoid]

Just a quick update.

I needed to take 3 x 0.5mg in total yesterday (so needed an extra 0.5mg before I went to bed). I finally got off to sleep about 3am and woke at 10am feeling pretty ok. I am a bit agitated and flu like today but nothing horrendous. I'm working and looking after my family fine so that is a massive plus.

I'm hoping 1mg will be enough tonight and then I can continue the taper. I'll be pleased if by day 3 I'm on 1mg. Then I can hop down to 0.5mg.

I'm off to my home NA meeting tonight and my sponsor was a big help last night.

So far I can honestly say if you are struggling with heroin then it's worth a look at this, even if it becomes a regular maintenance thing given by a doctor.

 

[manboychef]

I am glad to see you are doing well on your taper.

What I mean when I talk about the forums is checking out the dark side, and recovery subforums. I myself will have a year sober (sobriety is different than abstinence. I take prescribed benzos...and I take them only as prescribed) on Nov 4th. What I mean about PM'ing me is that I have been where you are, and I could share some insight into how I beat PAWS, or how I stay sober even though I am surrounded by family members in pain management.

Hopefully, you are getting enough excercise, and sleeping well. That will go miles for your PAWS.

 

[Sparkoid]

I am glad to see you are doing well on your taper.

What I mean when I talk about the forums is checking out the dark side, and recovery subforums. I myself will have a year sober (sobriety is different than abstinence. I take prescribed benzos...and I take them only as prescribed) on Nov 4th. What I mean about PM'ing me is that I have been where you are, and I could share some insight into how I beat PAWS, or how I stay sober even though I am surrounded by family members in pain management.

Hopefully, you are getting enough excercise, and sleeping well. That will go miles for your PAWS.

Cheers mate, I'll pop you a pm when they start happening.

Just FYI. I'm about to hop down to 0.5mg Bupe today and will try and take it just before bed so I get as much sleep as I can. I quit dope Sunday morning so this is day 3/4 whichever way you look at it.

I'm hoping to be down to 0.5mg Bupe today. Then by the weekend I'll try missing off days before jumping. I've just got to be in a fit state for some critical meetings in London on Tuesday.

 

[Sparkoid]

So for anyone interested I'm down to 0.5mg Bupe today and it's just holding WD's at bay. Dosing so far has gone like this:

Day 1 Sun all day - Waited to I was well into withdrawal, I did not want to find out what precip withdrawal was like!! For me I was in full withdrawal by about 12 hours after my last smoke of H but I had been tapering down and drawing out my last bag so I suspect if that last smoke had been a big session then you would have to wait longer.
Day 2 Mon 3am - Eventually took 2mg Bupe and this completely knocked the WD down. I had Zopiclone for sleep and I slept deeply for about 5 hours.
Day 2 Mon 11pm - 1.5mg Bupe then sleep with Zopiclone
Day 3 Tues 5pm - 0.5mg Bupe and then 11pm 0.5mg Bupe plus half a Zopiclone to sleep. I fell asleep late but slept in late today.
Day 4 Wed 7pm - 0.5mg Bupe and will take a whole Zopiclone to sleep later. I had WD's breaking through by about 4pm. Just severe aches and RLS mainly.

So assuming I am ok on 0.5mg tonight I'll do the same tomorrow and will look to skipping a day on Friday and see how that feels. In the worst case scenario I may take 0.5mg every day until Tuesday and then start skipping until I jump off. This is just so I can function properly with work as I have a big meeting coming up and I can't be a mess for it.

In general it is softening the WD a lot and I can function for work but I'm lucky enough to work from home. I generally feel shit, like I'm coming down with flu constantly but it is not the end of the world and it is letting me function. I don't want to be on Bupes any longer than absolutely necessary so I'm sure you could take a higher dose and not have as many symptoms. I just want this done as quickly as I can but still be able to work.

I'm nervous about the jump to 0.5mg every other day and I may go to 0.25mg every day. I have very accurate (expensive) scales so I can be very precise and have already powdered a number of Bupes. Rather conveniently one 8mg Bupe weighs 0.40g so I've got it split into 8th's already. Weighing 0.05g is fine but 0.025g is getting a bit silly so I will need to eyeball that or use my 2mg ones.

Looks like I will have some spare if all goes well.

 

[manboychef]

Be careful. Bupe withdrawal is no joke. I would prefer a full agonist withdrawal to a bupe withdrawal any day of the week.

As it goes you will eventually have to pay the piper my friend. You will have withdrawals no matter what you do. Minimizing them is good, mitigating them is good. Personally I would try to lay hands on some diazepam, l-tyrosine, and l-theanine. Magnesium helps quite a bit too. The diazepam will help with the mental aspects of the withdrawal, and when used sparingly will help with sleep quite a bit. I slept maybe a few hours interspersed with periods of wakefulness after a month after detoxing. This is going to be a hurdle to overcome.

 

[Sparkoid]

Be careful. Bupe withdrawal is no joke. I would prefer a full agonist withdrawal to a bupe withdrawal any day of the week.

As it goes you will eventually have to pay the piper my friend. You will have withdrawals no matter what you do. Minimizing them is good, mitigating them is good. Personally I would try to lay hands on some diazepam, l-tyrosine, and l-theanine. Magnesium helps quite a bit too. The diazepam will help with the mental aspects of the withdrawal, and when used sparingly will help with sleep quite a bit. I slept maybe a few hours interspersed with periods of wakefulness after a month after detoxing. This is going to be a hurdle to overcome.

If you don't mind me asking how big was your original habit and how long were you take Bupes for? You are one of the only people I've read saying that a week on Bupe will lead to withdrawal from them that is in anyway different to any other longer half life opiate, in fact most suggest that 10 -14 days should be ok as long as you are moving down to very low doses before a week is up. I appreciate that all I am doing is switching to a safer, more even and less easily abused substance.

BUT whatever it is, it is an opiate and simply fills the gap heroin left. I am expecting withdrawal and it to be more extended but that's the point. Why a partial agonist would create WD's that were worse I do not quite understand and from a medical perspective it makes no sense. The only thing about these longer half life opiates is just that, they take longer to metabolise etc.

My original habit was fairly small by some standards and for just a few months. I'm not trying to ignore the inevitable but the more info I have about what I am likely to expect the better. So far I've tapered from 2mg down to 0.5mg and so far so good. I'll remain here for a day or two and jump down a level again and see how the WD's feel.

I do have some Diazepam but will only use if I must as it comes with its own risks and I've had to taper off Diazepam once before and I don't want to do that again. Zopiclone is similar to benzos but is better for sleep and also tends to sedate too much to be something you'd want to use in the day. It also makes everything taste like shit so again you tend to avoid for recreational purposes lol.

So far I've found Bupe is good because:

1) It doesn't get me wasted so there is no reward
2) It would block any heroin use so I am not tempted to use (not that I want to anyway).
3) It seems to have dealt with all my cravings
4) I am quite clear headed on it (most of the time).
5) It is giving me time to get out of that hamster wheel of using

If I get to a week and find I have to maintain at .5mg every other day and very very slowly taper from there then so be it. My sponsor at NA has been through it, he has seen numerous others use this technique and with a lot of success. That's why I don't recognise what you are saying about you having such a tough time on Bupe. I've heard Methadone is much harder to get off and Bupe is preferred for short term users and those on smaller habits like me.

I look forward to your input.

 

[dognasher]

I think you're okay if you only take it for a week. Lots of times Sub docs want you on it forever and ever. I am on 4 mg of sub and will be until I die if that's what it takes to keep me off heroin. I have heard the withdrawal is a bitch but I think if you MAKE SURE to cut out the subs after a week you should be okay. I have virtually no experience with detoxing OFF subs though somebody else may be able to help you out more in that department.

Either way, I wish you luck in your recovery! I am about two months clean from a bad heroin habit and finally feel like I can see a future without dope. It feels good

 

[Sparkoid]

I think you're okay if you only take it for a week. Lots of times Sub docs want you on it forever and ever. I am on 4 mg of sub and will be until I die if that's what it takes to keep me off heroin. I have heard the withdrawal is a bitch but I think if you MAKE SURE to cut out the subs after a week you should be okay. I have virtually no experience with detoxing OFF subs though somebody else may be able to help you out more in that department.

Either way, I wish you luck in your recovery! I am about two months clean from a bad heroin habit and finally feel like I can see a future without dope. It feels good

I wish you the best too and from everything I've heard Bupe is perfect for getting your life back into perspective and getting off that insane wheel of addiction.

Take each day as you find it and yes I know exactly what you mean about hope. You have a new start now. It's all possible, even a very slow taper for you.

You never know.

 

[manboychef]

The first time I had withdrawal from bupe was in my first thirty day rehab. At the time I had a 300mg and upwards a day morphine and heroin habit. In rehab at that point they gave you suboxone. I did not like how I felt on it, so I had the nurses taper me off. I was only on it for half the month at 12mg a day split into three doses. The withdrawals were pretty bad...however it was how long lasting that made them intolerable.

The second time. I was on subutex for a year, I had gotten my life in order, I felt good, had a good job, and thought I no longer needed it. I tapered from 16mg a day down to 1mg and jumped off. After day eight of hell, I went back to heroin. I got back on bupe and did another year. I tapered with heroin and was able to successfully quit this last time, however I abused heroin for a year afterwards slowly bringing my dose down from 15-20bags a day, down to 1 a day. One of the problems with bupe is that it raises your tolerance to opiates through the roof.

Yes bupe is good in the sense that it stops cravings for opiates, however I craved a rush so I started using cocaine IV when I was on it. I think the salient point I am making is that you really have to be ready to stop all drugs. This time I was and I am substance (besides my prescribed benzos, which I only take as needed) free for nearly a year.

It really isn't the severity of the withdrawal that makes it bad, is it the length of withdrawal and the malingering malaise you will feel for a long time after it. It is why I told you to watch out for the PAWS from it. The PAWS from bupe and methadone are killer.

Nov 4th I will have a year, so if you need any help with dealing with PAWS hit me up, I may even give you my cell number to text because it takes about as much time to send a text as a craving lasts.

 

[dognasher]

I think the reason that this is such a touchy subject is because everything is so subjective - some people have awful experiences on subs and do other drugs. I have not had that happen. Some people have PAWS. That did not happen to me, maybe BECAUSE of subs. I guess the whole thing to take away from this is that everybody's chemistry is SO different, and I dare to say, myself included, that sometimes we like to project our own experiences onto other people, because how dare they get off easy, right?

It's tough, I wish there was one formula for getting clean because then it would be so easy! I guess during recovery the old adage of "hope for the best be prepared for the worst" is the right attitude to take, but I find myself going into a wormhole of despair if I "prepare" for awful things.

When I detoxed from benzos CT i went on all these forums and everybody as like "OMG it took me five years to recover from PAWS" and that was NOT what I needed to hear! I was fully prepared to have a horrible life. The reality was that I felt like shit for about a month and then things were okay. That was off a ten year 7mg daily klonopin habit.

So you just never know, but in my personal recovery journey I have found that having HOPE HOPE HOPE and the most cheesy ass, positive attitude as well as CONSTANT gratitude for my life as I know it - a life that might shitty but at least one that's my own, those things seem to really help.

Didn't mean to derail the thread, I just notice that these arguments come up often and I guess I just had to comment.

 

[bigzip44]

get out now while you still have a life.

This is the freaking truth right here.

Brother, this is gospel and let me just say this about buprenorphine for the record: it is fucking evil and so, so, so much harder to KICK than heroin. The truth about that whole shtick about it's massive bioavailability and its extremely high "affinity" for your opioid receptors will come to fruition in an endless battle with bupe that will leave you sobbing in pillows for a decade. That shit is horrific and unbearable to kick and a fucking nightmare to beat all heroin nightmares. It is last resort shit and yes it may help with withdrawals but once you introduce that shit to yourself you are opening a very nasty pandora's box and, honestly, it will change you. It will change your opiate system, your dopamine, your life, your heroin, your balls, and your faith in life not being FUCKED.

Stay away from that shit. Trust me. Just taper/titrate yourself off the smack and then, if you can, find some ibogaine. Do everything you can to avoid bupe. It is a bad thing, man. Bad.

Other people have other opinions which I totally respect but I would say this: mine is less opinion and more factual experience.

Subs fractured my soul and they seem to be very insidious and it seems all souls are ready to be broken by the shit.

Wean yourself off the smack. Find ibogaine. Try that. Took me ten years to figure all that out.

 

[spacejunk]

I think the reason that this is such a touchy subject is because everything is so subjective - some people have awful experiences on subs and do other drugs. I have not had that happen. Some people have PAWS. That did not happen to me, maybe BECAUSE of subs. I guess the whole thing to take away from this is that everybody's chemistry is SO different, and I dare to say, myself included, that sometimes we like to project our own experiences onto other people, because how dare they get off easy, right?

It's tough, I wish there was one formula for getting clean because then it would be so easy! I guess during recovery the old adage of "hope for the best be prepared for the worst" is the right attitude to take, but I find myself going into a wormhole of despair if I "prepare" for awful things.

When I detoxed from benzos CT i went on all these forums and everybody as like "OMG it took me five years to recover from PAWS" and that was NOT what I needed to hear! I was fully prepared to have a horrible life. The reality was that I felt like shit for about a month and then things were okay. That was off a ten year 7mg daily klonopin habit.

So you just never know, but in my personal recovery journey I have found that having HOPE HOPE HOPE and the most cheesy ass, positive attitude as well as CONSTANT gratitude for my life as I know it - a life that might shitty but at least one that's my own, those things seem to really help.

Didn't mean to derail the thread, I just notice that these arguments come up often and I guess I just had to comment.

This.
How many of the people saying bupe is harder to come off were acually doing a rapid taper (ie using it for a month or two at maximum)?
In my experience the WD from long term use is incomparable to that of a quick taper, so i wouldnt say bupe is one-size-fits-all in any way. It depends entirely on how you take it, and IME if you take it short-term it is entirely possible to have a pretty comfortable detox.
YMMV of course.

 

[manboychef]

I've detoxed both ways. Short taper, and long term maintenance. They both suck. The short taper just prolonged my morphine withdrawal, and the long term maintenance was another ballgame all together.

Dognasher is right. Having a positive attitude is key. If you think you will fail, chances are you will fail. However, if you do fail, keep trying. If you fail and give up you might as well just go to the graveyard and dig your own grave. It took me four years to successfully stop after 12 years of addiction/dependence to opiates (that makes 16 years total, as I just had the anniversary of the first time I shot morphine the other day). The one thing that rang true during those four years is that if I slipped up or found myself under the thumb of opiates again I just dusted myself off and kept trying to beat it. I never let it win. I have to also parrot what dognasher says about life being shitty, but at least its yours. I have a life I don't like most of the time, but I sure as shit fought hard to get it back. My life may not always be pleasing, or fun, but I can be proud of myself that I did something that most people fail at.

When it comes to bupe, everyone is different. I trusted my doctors whom put me on high doses each time I took it. This was wrong and completely changed my addiction. Bupe is truly a strong medicine and not to be trifled with. If you can kick without it, by all means that is the route you should go. If you need it due to not being able to take a break to go through withdrawals as in the OPs case, then use it, just remember there are consequences.

There is also one other aspect of bupe that most people fail to recognize when they start taking it. Most people don't become addicted/dependent on opiates because their life is going swimmingly. When I was on bupe maintenance I was incredibly successful as an executive chef. I worked seven days a week, from 5.30am to 9.00pm everyday, sometimes later. This was due to my inability to deal with the emotional pain that caused me to use in the first place. Bupe just masked this and I really had no real recovery. I just replaced my opiate addiction with work addiction because it was easier to work all day every day than it was to actually address my feelings and come to grips with them. It is very easy to fall into a routine of using maintenance drugs just to get by and not actually recover from the addiction. If you use bupe and don't actually do the work on yourself, your other addictions and addictive tendencys will be magnified tenfold.

good luck.

 

[spacejunk]

^ i don't disagree, but i think building the struggle of addiction up to being something almost insurmountable can be almost a self-fulfulling prophecy in cases like this.
OP hasn't been using for all that long, and i like their chances of getting better this way, which is why i'm encouraging rather than warning. As you say, everyone is different
I think therapy is an invaluable tool in conquering addictions - more than any medicine, to be honest.

 

[manboychef]

Indeed spacejunk. That is why I said, it is good for the OP. The problem most times with maintenance is that doctors put you on such high doses. It just exacerbates your addiction.

I wouldn't have been able to stay sober without proper medication for my problems, and proper therapy. They go hand in hand. Most people that are addicts have co-occurring substance abuse problems. Work on those and you will find your way out of the darkness.

Opiate addiction is far from insurmountable. It is just extremely hard. You have to really want it.

I think the OP has a personal cheering section in us spacejunk. I'm really hoping that he can get to where he needs to be to beat this.