Opioids Questions on Kratom tapering

[Mycophile]

Sorry guys, I'd have put this in the Kratom thread but thought I'd get more attention faster this way.

If it pisses you off Mods, then just combine it into the thread:

I'd REALLY like some people who have tapered before to chime in on this thread cause I have some questions on Kratom tapering, and please, don't anyone tell me I should quit Kratom cause I've been told that before, and while I'd do it if TOTALLY necessary, I don't want to. I just want to break my current dependency, make sure I have ZERO WD for like 7 days in a row, then go back down to dosing 3 days a week instead of 4 to avoid being dependent which has mostly worked for 4 years for me now.

I'll give a TLRD version first with short questions first since many people don't like long windedness, then describe my current taper, so if you DON'T want to read my whole taper situation, PLEASE just answer the first few questions if you have the time and I'd really appreciate it.

History: This is my first taper because I've always stuck to 3-4 days a week to avoid WD and it usually worked but I slipped up & was too busy with work and school to cold turkey cause I needed to feel well enough to work so I decided to taper.

Usual dosing pattern includes: 3--6.5--7.0 gram doses, 3-4 days a week but NEVER more than 2 days in a row, and if I use 2 days in a row then not using 2 days in a row afterwards, not usually getting WD and if I do, toughing it out till it's gone to dose again.

Biggest questions:

1) If someone simply sticks with a taper long enough, whatever that taper is and however it's organized, isn't it pretty much about 99% likely they'll EVENTUALLY no longer have WD?

I mean, there's no way that if I just keep lowering the dosage more and more regularly that I'd NEVER break the dependency right? That's surely a sheer impossibility...

2) Do the intensity of Kratom WD symptoms and how quickly they show up increase if you've been addicted before?

Like, basically, does it get harder and harder to get away with these 3-4 day a week dosing schedules I've been doing once I've experienced WD?

Cause I've heard it's true...like a kindling effect...and if it is, I know I just need to use it less.


3) So, lets say I'm tapering down 0.5 grams a day....6.5, 6.0, 5.5. etc.....and I got to 1.5 gs, then messed up and took 3-4 grams for one dose, does that completely fuck the whole taper, or does it just slow down the tapering process?

Does once or twice using higher doses, but not FULL doses (according to your personal tolerance) totally fuck up a taper? And if not, what effect DOES it have on a taper?

4) Does a slow taper make the WD symptoms less severe than simply quitting cold turkey?

I've heard it does, but I've quit cold turkey several times before, and my WD today while still on 1.5 grams is as bad as certain times on zero, so why would that be?


If you don't want to hear my whole taper and just want to answer those questions (which are the important ones), then read no further LOL:





My taper:


So, 15 days ago (Friday May 25th) I was not dependent on Kratom.

Then I took my typical doses, 3--7 gram doses on a Saturday (26th) and a Sunday (27th) in a row.

This would normally be the point at which I'd take off Monday and Tuesday and dose on Wednesday, as I've found 2 days off for every 2 on works.

So I took off that Monday (May 28th), but broke my rule, and DIDN'T take off that Tuesday (29th) and a mild dependency started.

I dosed again Wednesday (30th), but skipped Thursday and Friday (the 31st and June 1st)

Then I dosed Saturday and Sunday in a row (2nd and 3rd) (typical for me), but because of my slip up, felt I had to dose that Monday (the 4th) (this was 5 days ago) and start a taper, and instead of taking my normal 7 gram doses, I took 1--4.5 gram dose, and 1--4 gram dose and felt fine.

Tuesday (the 5th)--Took one 3.5 gram dose and one 4.75 gram dose and felt fine (now I decided to go down by 0.5mgs a day).

Wednesday (the 6th)---Took 1 SINGLE 3 gram dose and felt fine

Thursday (the 7th)---Took 2--2.5 gram doses and felt fine (they were seperated from the last dose the day before by 16 1/2 hours so i figure that was good).

Friday (yesterday) (the 8th)--Took 2--2 gram doses and felt fine

But today, Saturday the 9th, I finally tried to go below 2 grams to 1.5grams and still felt like shit....dealt with it, took a nap, still felt shitty so now I took a 4 gram dose (still only a little more than half my usual dose but probably too high).

Did I totally fuck up my taper by taking that one higher dose?

And I just keep working at it and tapering long enough, isn't it pretty much a given I'll eventually get to the point where I am RELATIVELY comfortable not taking Kratom for several days in a row and breaking the dependency so I can go back to CAREFULLY dosing 3 days a week (never in a row)???

I mean I've been able to stick to a schedule of 3-4 days a week for FOUR years now without ever getting TRULY dependent, and prior to this week, I'd only TWICE gone 5 days in a row taking Kratom, never even went 6, but now I've gone eight days in a row taking it, and I'm not happy about it.

I'm still determined to learn to get back to a moderate usage and avoid tapering situations and not use daily like others on here, but I figured sooner or later I'd end up having to taper, so now I'm trying to learn the rules around tapering to avoid WD, since I figure it could happen again.

If I HAVE to quit I'll quit, but I see no reason why I should be at that point yet.

I think if I can just break the dependency for a week and go back to 3 days a week instead of 4 I should be fine.

Any advice or answers to those questions would be appreciated.

Thanks.



Post script: It's quite possible I might actually only be feeling bad from a negative reaction to some Concerta someone gave me today, since I was feeling fine before it kicked in...It'll wear off in about 3 hours, so I guess we'll see...

Anyone??...

I especially want to know if:

1) taking one full dose or close to a full dose (dependent on tolerance) will completely fuck up a taper and start you back at zero

2) if an organized taper will pretty much always work as long as you stick to it long enough

3) if a slow taper makes the WD symptoms better on your first day of complete abstainance than quitting cold turkey and

4) if once you've been dependent before it makes your WD symptoms come on more quickly and intensely in the future.


You can skip the entire post before this if it's too long to just answer these 4 questions.

Thanks

Shit, I fucked up and took a full dose.

Does one full dose (6.5 grams) ruin an entire taper or will it just slow it down and make it take longer to break the dependency?

Did I basically undo the entire taper I've been doing all week and set me back to zero or can I just pick up where I left off tomorrow at a lower dose?

I realize everyone is out cause it's Saturday night but I've never tapered before so I don't know how it works.

I'll just wait till people are around to answer, most likely tomorrow...

 

[MDPV_Psychosis]

I'm a bit out of it/loopy from taking phenibut while sleep deprived but I'll toss a couple of my pennies in. Please note I'm not addressing your questions one for one here, these are just a couple of points I want to make:

1) Tapering is a good idea when you've been physically dependent for an extended period of time (weeks/months/years).

Based on what you are saying, you have just pushed past the point where you feel uncomfortable when you stop. I think you might be better off just stopping, dealing with feeling shitty for a few days and then start up again after the smoke clears (since that's what you intend to do).

By trying to taper I think you are just making things worse because all you are doing is dosing daily when you hadn't been doing so for very long before.

It shouldn't be that difficult to stop now but it will get progressively more difficult the more days you take it in a row.

It's up to you though, if you feel you need to taper then taper.

2) The kindling effect is real. Withdrawals tend to get nastier each time they are experienced and each time you start using again physical dependence tends to set in sooner.

It's something to keep in mind because your dosing schedule is a tightrope walk in my opinion. Your pushing things too close to the edge and aren't allowing yourself enough error room.

You see how easy it is to screw up and break one of your rules? You may want to consider slowing down a bit more... Like only use once or twice a week and never consecutive days in a row. That way, if you do screw up one day, you aren't so close to crossing the line into physical dependence.

Most people who set these kinds of rules up also tend to setup 'punishments' for when they break a rule. Like if you find yourself breaking one of your rules then it means it's time to stop for awhile.

Just some thoughts man... I'm getting side tracked, sorry.

3) Tapering does help minimize withdrawal severity but withdrawals still suck even when they are minor imo. I suppose technically one could taper so low that they don't ever experience withdrawals but I've never been able to do so. Usually at some point it just gets easier to jump off and get it over with. A taper will always help if it is well executed but it isn't going to avoid withdrawals unless you taper very slowly until your nearly taking nothing.

4) Screwing up by taking a full dose will not reset a taper back to zero. Usually you can just pickup where you left off and continue the taper as long as it was just a one time mistake and not something you repeated several days in a row. If you need to you can always just go back a step in the taper, there would be no need to start over again from a one time mistake.

5) Usually when you taper the first thing you need to do is establish your starting point. Generally this isn't your regular dose because mostly your regular dose gets you high. You usually find a dose that is just enough to keep you out of withdrawals but not enough to get you high, then you stabilize there for a few days then drop like ~10%, stabilize again for a few days then drop ~10%, stabilize for a few days, etc.

The drops don't have to be 10%. They can be as high or as low as your comfortable with. But by dropping a set amount, say like 0.5g each time, things get difficult the lower you go because each drop becomes bigger and bigger relatively to the amount you are taking.

I think I might be rambling. I'm off to bed.

 

[Mycophile]

I'm a bit out of it/loopy from taking phenibut while sleep deprived but I'll toss a couple of my pennies in. Please note I'm not addressing your questions one for one here, these are just a couple of points I want to make:

1) Tapering is a good idea when you've been physically dependent for an extended period of time (weeks/months/years).

Based on what you are saying, you have just pushed past the point where you feel uncomfortable when you stop. I think you might be better off just stopping, dealing with feeling shitty for a few days and then start up again after the smoke clears (since that's what you intend to do).

By trying to taper I think you are just making things worse because all you are doing is dosing daily when you hadn't been doing so for very long before.

It shouldn't be that difficult to stop now but it will get progressively more difficult the more days you take it in a row.

It's up to you though, if you feel you need to taper then taper.

2) The kindling effect is real. Withdrawals tend to get nastier each time they are experienced and each time you start using again physical dependence tends to set in sooner.

It's something to keep in mind because your dosing schedule is a tightrope walk in my opinion. Your pushing things too close to the edge and aren't allowing yourself enough error room.

You see how easy it is to screw up and break one of your rules? You may want to consider slowing down a bit more... Like only use once or twice a week and never consecutive days in a row. That way, if you do screw up one day, you aren't so close to crossing the line into physical dependence.

Most people who set these kinds of rules up also tend to setup 'punishments' for when they break a rule. Like if you find yourself breaking one of your rules then it means it's time to stop for awhile.

Just some thoughts man... I'm getting side tracked, sorry.

3) Tapering does help minimize withdrawal severity but withdrawals still suck even when they are minor imo. I suppose technically one could taper so low that they don't ever experience withdrawals but I've never been able to do so. Usually at some point it just gets easier to jump off and get it over with. A taper will always help if it is well executed but it isn't going to avoid withdrawals unless you taper very slowly until your nearly taking nothing.

4) Screwing up by taking a full dose will not reset a taper back to zero. Usually you can just pickup where you left off and continue the taper as long as it was just a one time mistake and not something you repeated several days in a row. If you need to you can always just go back a step in the taper, there would be no need to start over again from a one time mistake.

5) Usually when you taper the first thing you need to do is establish your starting point. Generally this isn't your regular dose because mostly your regular dose gets you high. You usually find a dose that is just enough to keep you out of withdrawals but not enough to get you high, then you stabilize there for a few days then drop like ~10%, stabilize again for a few days then drop ~10%, stabilize for a few days, etc.

The drops don't have to be 10%. They can be as high or as low as your comfortable with. But by dropping a set amount, say like 0.5g each time, things get difficult the lower you go because each drop becomes bigger and bigger relatively to the amount you are taking.

I think I might be rambling. I'm off to bed.

Thanks a lot for the well thought out advice and I agree with most of it.

I think you are right it's better to just stop the taper if I can and not dose at all and so I'm gonna bite the bullet and force myself if I can to take none tomorrow, but I have a whole lot of work to do right now between work and school and I'm a bit worried I won't be able to get it all done if I'm on absolutely nothing, but there's only one way to find out and then if I really can't get anything done I guess I kind of have no choice but to take the absolute smallest amount possible.

I wish I had Adderall cause that's something i think might help me but I don't, though I have 2 days worth of my brother's Concerta (a shitty type of Ritalin) which could help.

I had thought a taper would 100% prevent all WD but I guess not.

What you said makes sense about me pushing it too close to the edge without enough room for error and I had just thought literally the exact same thing the other week.

I think that the best for me would be to use it no more than 3 days a week and never 2 days in a row, and I am pretty sure if I do that I won't run into problems. I'd rather use 3 a week than 2, but 4 has been pushing it too much.

I didn't think that I was tapering too fast cause I've never done it before, but now I see that I must have been.

I'm glad that fucking up once doesn't ruin my taper.


So I guess the only questions I have now are:

1) If I find I can't get my work done without taking a very small amount and I just need to taper, even though the WD wouldn't get to being absolutely zero, wouldn't it pretty much just be a matter of time till I was able to break the dependence without WAY too much discomfort if I did it slowly and gradually enough?

2) Lets say that certain days I AM able to totally abstain from Kratom, but then certain days I end up feeling I need some very small doses to get through the day, would that still generally gradually work me towards breaking the dependence as long as I was never actually taking enough to get high and just stuck with it?

3) And do you know anything that can help w/ the WD, whether it's an easily obtainable drug, or an activity like exercise (hard to do when in WD but I think it might help), etc?

4) Also, is there ever really a way to know how long the WD will last?

Last time it got bad over a year ago it took 6 days, but I'm guessing there's no way either you or I can know that answer.

Thanks

 

[Slow_Mobius]

It sounds to me like tapering would be serious overkill, and I agree with pretty much everything MDPV wrote. If someone went on a bit of a drinking binge for a few days, would you recommend some long drawn out taper? Or would you tell them to deal with their hangover? In that case, they might only need a single dose of an anti-epileptic and then they'll be fine. But again, it really depends on their dosages and their history with alcohol.

In your case, I think you're dosing regimen has made you a text book case of the kindling effect. It sounds like what you're experiencing is more of a kratom hangover than kratom WDs. Don't get me wrong, they're pretty much the same thing, but I would never recommend a long taper for someone to get over their hangover.

It also sounds like you have other problems and that you dislike being sober. That in itself can make WDs feel more severe as you adjust to you're new reality without the assistance of kratom.

It's my opinion that a taper could make your WDs less severe but far more protracted, whereas stopping CT would suck but not entail the same kind of PAWS. I would get some comfort meds. If you're having trouble with motivation, basic stuff like adrafanil or caffeine can help. If youre having trouble with anxiety or sleep, taking benzos for a couple days can help. Etc.

How much sleep do you normally get? Sounds obvious, but so many people have problems that could be solved with better sleeping habits.

 

[falsifiedhypothesi]

Whenever i taper kratom i usually do a pretty slow taper, 1-2 grams a day. My habit is about 5-8 grams 3 times a day. With this method i'll usually work my way down to about 5-10 grams a day and jump off from there.

Kratom withdrawal is fairly mild in my opinion and is very tolerable once i work down to below 5-8 grams a day. If i fuck up my taper doses it doesn't usually fuck up my withdrawals, i'll just keep the schedule going as planned and not have a problem.

I've gone through cold turkey kratom withdrawals and a much more mild protracted withdrawal. I'd say if you have a few days to sit around and do nothing then you should just go cold turkey. CT is from kratom is not nearly as bad as other opiates, even at doses like 20+ grams a day.

 

[Mycophile]

It sounds to me like tapering would be serious overkill, and I agree with pretty much everything MDPV wrote. If someone went on a bit of a drinking binge for a few days, would you recommend some long drawn out taper? Or would you tell them to deal with their hangover? In that case, they might only need a single dose of an anti-epileptic and then they'll be fine. But again, it really depends on their dosages and their history with alcohol.

In your case, I think you're dosing regimen has made you a text book case of the kindling effect. It sounds like what you're experiencing is more of a kratom hangover than kratom WDs. Don't get me wrong, they're pretty much the same thing, but I would never recommend a long taper for someone to get over their hangover.

It also sounds like you have other problems and that you dislike being sober. That in itself can make WDs feel more severe as you adjust to you're new reality without the assistance of kratom.

It's my opinion that a taper could make your WDs less severe but far more protracted, whereas stopping CT would suck but not entail the same kind of PAWS. I would get some comfort meds. If you're having trouble with motivation, basic stuff like adrafanil or caffeine can help. If youre having trouble with anxiety or sleep, taking benzos for a couple days can help. Etc.

How much sleep do you normally get? Sounds obvious, but so many people have problems that could be solved with better sleeping habits.

Yeah, I have shitty sleeping habits though I actually get more than enough but I rarely go to bed or get up at the same time which makes it harder and I need to change that.

You are right about my having other drug habits like drinking, sometimes F-Phenibut but not for almost 2 weeks, nothing too hardcore but sometimes problematic.

I have Klonopin but that doesn't take care of any of the WD IMO as the biggest issue I get from WD is fatigue. I have 2 days worth of Concerta which should help but it won't last long.

So my plan is to do my very best to abstain for as many days possible and as many days in a row as I can till I've broken the dependence and if I do end up dosing then obviously using the smallest amount possible.

Sound like a smart idea?

Also, do you agree with others that a dose or two here or there that are higher than my tapered doses will not completely fuck up a taper?

I mean my new intention is NOT to taper, but basically, like the fact that I took a full dose last night doesn't undo the fact that I was taking smaller doses in the days before right?

And do you think that if I simply feel I HAVE to take some small doses (when I say small I mean no more than 2-2.5 grams for someone who's optimal dose is 6.5 grams...I generally would say I don't get "high" on less than 3.5, just a mild mood lift)...that if I DID have to taper that sooner or later I'd get to the point of having very little WD and be able to jump off completely till the dependence is broken?

If I had no work to do it would be easy to go without for as many days in a row as necessary as I'm not on Kratom now and the WD isn't worse than it has been at other times, in fact, it's less severe, but with as much work as I have to do, I'm not sure I'll be able to get it all done without giving in to 1 or 2 doses of about 2 grams.

Thanks

 

[Mycophile]

Whenever i taper kratom i usually do a pretty slow taper, 1-2 grams a day. My habit is about 5-8 grams 3 times a day. With this method i'll usually work my way down to about 5-10 grams a day and jump off from there.

Kratom withdrawal is fairly mild in my opinion and is very tolerable once i work down to below 5-8 grams a day. If i fuck up my taper doses it doesn't usually fuck up my withdrawals, i'll just keep the schedule going as planned and not have a problem.

I've gone through cold turkey kratom withdrawals and a much more mild protracted withdrawal. I'd say if you have a few days to sit around and do nothing then you should just go cold turkey. CT is from kratom is not nearly as bad as other opiates, even at doses like 20+ grams a day.

That's the problem, I have TONS of work to do.

It would be super easy to go cold turkey now with nothing to do and I've had worse WD than this and gone cold turkey, but being productive is tough.

With stimulants it would be easy probably, and I have 2 days of Concerta, so maybe that will help, but it's not enough and I have no prescription for stimulants.

Do I have to think about a taper in terms of total grams per day or can I think about it in total grams per dose?

Like I agree with you guys that I want to cold turkey but I may have to take small doses of like 2--2.5 grams here and there to be able to get my work done, and since my optimal dose to get high was 6.5--7 grams about 3 times a day, how would you taper down from that?

Again, I don't want to taper, and I agree it's overkill, so my plan is to abstain when I can, and when I feel I can't, then take the smallest dose possible.

Do you think that will eventually work?

Thanks

 

[Ziiirp]

The single most important requirement for a successfull taper is : having the Kratom available in capsules (of ~500mg content).

For a the easiest possible taper you need to bring patience. AFAIR I tapered from 10g/day to 0 in 4 or 5 weeks. Switching from 10-8-5-3-2-0g/day per week.

Then for the WD I had lope (1-2 tabs (2mg) a day), L-Theanine, Mucuna Pruriens, Some Chinese anti-inflammatory I forgot the name of, amino-acid rich food/supplements. I could pursue my daily working schedule easily, despite dropping a 4 year long habit.

Then there were PAWS of maybe another 2-4 weeks, but I do not recall, whether it was the Kratom WD or the fact, that I did not take any psychoactive substances at all during that time. So I cannot comment on the PAWS. Will pay more attention next time.

 

[Mycophile]

The single most important requirement for a successfull taper is : having the Kratom available in capsules (of ~500mg content).

For a the easiest possible taper you need to bring patience. AFAIR I tapered from 10g/day to 0 in 4 or 5 weeks. Switching from 10-8-5-3-2-0g/day per week.

Then for the WD I had lope (1-2 tabs (2mg) a day), L-Theanine, Mucuna Pruriens, Some Chinese anti-inflammatory I forgot the name of, amino-acid rich food/supplements. I could pursue my daily working schedule easily, despite dropping a 4 year long habit.

Then there were PAWS of maybe another 2-4 weeks, but I do not recall, whether it was the Kratom WD or the fact, that I did not take any psychoactive substances at all during that time. So I cannot comment on the PAWS. Will pay more attention next time.

Well I don't have capsules but I don't think it matters cause I have a great milligram scale and plenty of Kratom and can weigh out however much I want and I usually just put it in ziplock bags and carry it around with a couple small measuring/cooking spoons in a little pouch in my pocket and a bottle of water and whenever I feel the need I go to a bathroom and can wash it down in a couple minutes and no one is the wiser.

Can I ask how long you'd been dosing regularly for it to take you that long to taper?

Cause I know it wouldn't take me even remotely that long, as I've only taken it 8 days in a row (we'll see if I fuck up today...) and out of those 8 days only 3 of them included me taking full doses (for me 6.5 grams) that resulted in a true high, and in 4 years of using this is the first time I've ever used more than 4 days in a row, so this is only a very minor dependency.

Even now I am realizing I am making too big a deal out of it, and if not for work I have to do it would be a total non-issue.

So one other question for people: lets say I DO take a minor dose on a single day, but I am able to put it off until later in the day like the afternoon or evening rather than the morning, and make it be more hours since I took my last dose the day before, like say, if I am able to push it off so I don't dose till it has been 18 hours since the last, rather than 4-8 hours, does that kind of a thing make a difference in terms of my more quickly breaking my dependence?

Cause I've been pretty good at going anywhere from 10--14--yesterday going 16 1/2 hours between doses.

Sleeping a lot helps lol.

 

[falsifiedhypothesi]

It doesn't matter if you do it by grams per day or by grams per dose. If you can't afford to sit around for a couple days then a taper will work fine. Doing a -.5gram per dose per day reduction should be a pretty gentle taper.

I think you'll be fine with that kind of taper.

 

[Mycophile]

Thanks.

And does it make a difference in terms of the more hours I go between dose?

Like even if I end up taking 2 grams tonight, is it better that I was able to put it off for 16 hours in terms of getting over the dependency more quickly, rather than if I had dose only 6 hours after my last dose?

 

[falsifiedhypothesi]

You can put more space in between doses and you'll get over it faster but you'll definitely go into slight withdrawals before your next dose.

If you can handle being in slight withdrawals for that time period before the dose then it should help you get over the dependency faster.

 

[Ziiirp]

Well I don't have capsules but I don't think it matters cause I have a great milligram scale and plenty of Kratom and can weigh out however much I want and I usually just put it in ziplock bags and carry it around with a couple small measuring/cooking spoons in a little pouch in my pocket and a bottle of water and whenever I feel the need I go to a bathroom and can wash it down in a couple minutes and no one is the wiser.

Can I ask how long you'd been dosing regularly for it to take you that long to taper?

Cause I know it wouldn't take me even remotely that long, as I've only taken it 8 days in a row (we'll see if I fuck up today...) and out of those 8 days only 3 of them included me taking full doses (for me 6.5 grams) that resulted in a true high, and in 4 years of using this is the first time I've ever used more than 4 days in a row, so this is only a very minor dependency.


Even now I am realizing I am making too big a deal out of it, and if not for work I have to do it would be a total non-issue.

So one other question for people: lets say I DO take a minor dose on a single day, but I am able to put it off until later in the day like the afternoon or evening rather than the morning, and make it be more hours since I took my last dose the day before, like say, if I am able to push it off so I don't dose till it has been 18 hours since the last, rather than 4-8 hours, does that kind of a thing make a difference in terms of my more quickly breaking my dependence?

Cause I've been pretty good at going anywhere from 10--14--yesterday going 16 1/2 hours between doses.

Sleeping a lot helps lol.

I took it for ~4 years daily (with some accidental quirks in between). But not 10g/day all the time. I started with dosing once a week (maybe 5g), twice a week (~5g), trice a week (~5g), then dosed regularly (less than 5g), then daily, but "only" 3-4g/day for the first year or so. Then I gradually upped the dose, but I never upped the single dose, only dosed more frequently for the stimulant effects. I guess that is important, even in the end of my dependence, a single dose would usually be 2-3g, which was ought to provide a good balance between relaxation and stimulation (which are the two qualities of a Kratom experience).

So maybe our both use patterns are incomparable and therefore the withdrawal-tactics are incompatible.

That is why my tapering process was comparably long, because I dosed regularly for long time.

Knowing your posts I would say your phenibut use patterns (in combo with other stuff) are much more critical than your Kratom abuse alone. Kratom is easy to taper away and forget about ... (IME)

 

[Mycophile]

I took it for ~4 years daily (with some accidental quirks in between). But not 10g/day all the time. I started with dosing once a week (maybe 5g), twice a week (~5g), trice a week (~5g), then dosed regularly (less than 5g), then daily, but "only" 3-4g/day for the first year or so. Then I gradually upped the dose, but I never upped the single dose, only dosed more frequently for the stimulant effects. I guess that is important, even in the end of my dependence, a single dose would usually be 2-3g, which was ought to provide a good balance between relaxation and stimulation (which are the two qualities of a Kratom experience).

So maybe our both use patterns are incomparable and therefore the withdrawal-tactics are incompatible.

That is why my tapering process was comparably long, because I dosed regularly for long time.

Knowing your posts I would say your phenibut use patterns (in combo with other stuff) are much more critical than your Kratom abuse alone. Kratom is easy to taper away and forget about ... (IME)

Naw, my phenibut and fluro phenibut use is not a big deal because I rarely use it more than one day a week and have never experienced issues, and it's now been 18 days since I've done Fluro-Phenibut.

I don't think there's been a single week I've used Phenibut more than 2 days, though I could be forgetting one or two times I used it 3, so I'm not quite sure where you are getting the idea that I use it so much. I use high doses and sometimes drink on it, but I react fine to it.

Believe it or not, it's pretty easy to get away with one--two high doses of Fluro-Phenibut or Phenibut a week, it's the more frequent use that is an issue.

Yeah, see we aren't alike cause you used it daily for 4 years and now I'm at my all time worst simply cause i used it about 9 or so days in a row give or take, but I am not happy with the situation but I'm pretty damn sure I'll break the dependence again, it's just that I don't have a lot of off days and it's harder to do lots of work while not feeling 100%.

 

[Ziiirp]

Just stay at 2-3g/day for a week and then drop the habit for a few weeks or forever. That said, for me personally it would be more annoying to go to work with a scale and a scoop every day than just biting the bullet and CTing a small habit like you described above (3-4g a day? nothing to whine about, if you are scared about addiction that much, then I advise you, to not take any substance in the first place). Maybe you should seek professional advice about what means could help to ease your every day life (more than Kratom can do, cause Kratom just distracts from real issues IME). I do not mean that in an offensive way, but your posts are often pages long and contain a lot of overthinking/desperation over minor issues, which seems unhealthy to me.

To make my point clear: Just relax, man. I remember you were very vary about Kratom addiction even when you consumed it like just twice a month. If I would be scared of getting addicted to a certain drug I would immediately stop taking it or never touch it in the first place. Everything will be fine ...

 

[Mycophile]

Just stay at 2-3g/day for a week and then drop the habit for a few weeks or forever. That said, for me personally it would be more annoying to go to work with a scale and a scoop every day than just biting the bullet and CTing a small habit like you described above (3-4g a day? nothing to whine about, if you are scared about addiction that much, then I advise you, to not take any substance in the first place). Maybe you should seek professional advice about what means could help to ease your every day life (more than Kratom can do, cause Kratom just distracts from real issues IME). I do not mean that in an offensive way, but your posts are often pages long and contain a lot of overthinking/desperation over minor issues, which seems unhealthy to me.

To make my point clear: Just relax, man. I remember you were very vary about Kratom addiction even when you consumed it like just twice a month. If I would be scared of getting addicted to a certain drug I would immediately stop taking it or never touch it in the first place. Everything will be fine ...

No, I don't take 3-4 grams a day, I take about 5-7 grams, 3 times a day, 3-4 days a week, but still not bad.

I started Kratom being concerned and obsessive about it 4 years ago, then stopped obsessing about it and for the most part have been unconcerned for about a year till I slipped up a bit, not based on lack of self control, but on a silly notion that I should taper to deal with mild WD, which only made things worse cause as you pointed out, and as others have, that's a bad idea to taper off a "hangover".

I do have OCD and GAD and I've gotten every kind of "help" that's worth seeking, but Kratom is still the best temporary fix I've ever used for it, but it's not 100% without issues, and the only reason there's any issue at all is I have a lot of work to do these days and not using any while working is somewhat challenging, whereas if I had 7 days off it would be zero issue whatsover.

I'm also very long winded by nature, and that's something I have to work on cause it makes my writing hard to read.

But I am fine, I'll just withstand when I can, break my extremely minor dependency, and go back to sporadic usage of 2-3 days a week.

 

[phuckingnutz]

It sounds to me like you'll end up with a worse jones by tapering. I have taken Kratom every day for around 3 years 25-40 grams a day and I tapered down to the level where I can take it or leave it, but you seem to be at the same place i am after tapering and all you'll do is prolong the inevitable, unless you have an endless supply.
If you're able to function and sleep at night then don't take any.
Thern in a day or three take a little and you may actually enjoy it again.

 

[Mycophile]

It sounds to me like you'll end up with a worse jones by tapering. I have taken Kratom every day for around 3 years 25-40 grams a day and I tapered down to the level where I can take it or leave it, but you seem to be at the same place i am after tapering and all you'll do is prolong the inevitable, unless you have an endless supply.
If you're able to function and sleep at night then don't take any.
Thern in a day or three take a little and you may actually enjoy it again.

Oh I still enjoy it.

I went all day without dosing and was only a little tired, then again, I did sleep all day so that's why lol, mild runny nose but barely anything, but it hasn't yet been quite 24 hours till the last dose wore off...about 20 now though so I don't think this should be much of anything unless it gets worse on day 2. I'm not sure that I'm at the same place you are unless you really have a very minor temporary dependence cause I think I over exaggerated.

Problem is, I have important things to do early in the week so I'll probably feel I need some small doses, but I'll have gone at least 2 days in a row without dosing by then and then a few days after that I should be able to work in more days of abstainance, so I'm sure I won't be dependent anymore in 2 weeks time or less by combining small dose-days with complete abstainance days, then start using less, like 2-3 days a week just to be careful.