Question for people who have had very many psychedelic experiences

[Incunabula]

Your point is totally irrelevant for the topic. Either you have knowledge of the said guru and know what happened or not. You are not Richard Alpert and cannot testify on his behalf. Is it possible that someone takes 1200 ug of LSD and stays the same? I do not know. For me and the majority of people it is impossible to stay 1 hour under water without breathing and I've seen yogis doing it. A fact is that Alpert was so impressed that he converted. and BTW here is a link to Ram Dass own words.

You may believe in him or not, but just because you won't it will not make it false.

Really? First off, it wasn't off topic, it was in regards to Ismene and burn outs discussion about Ram dass and his guru. Second, it's evident you haven't understood one word of what I wrote.

As usual, these threads ends up as pathetic jokes. 8)

 

[Rorthron]

Really? First off, it wasn't off topic, it was in regards to Ismene and burn outs discussion about Ram dass and his guru. Second, it's evident you haven't understood one word of what I wrote.

As usual, these threads ends up as pathetic jokes. 8)

Perhaps you did not understand what you wrote, or meant something else. That is indeed pathetic.

 

[Fresnel]

The most profound realisation I had was from dissociatives. I had demonstrated to me that the world I inhabit was not the material one, but instead is a model of the world in my own brain, a model made of vast amounts of interconnected knowledge and meaning. I am fairly certain this model was built and based upon, and is updated from, a material world "out there", but that material world isn't where I actually live. The thing that feels solid and real, the place I inhabit and feel connected to is the model.

 

[burn out]

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In regards to Ram Dass and the story of the guru that ate 900 mics of LSD. Sometimes we want to believe something so much, that it becomes the truth. Often things we remember, aren't remembered or retold as they really happened. It's not lying per se, because people will often actually believe the story they are telling, sometimes it's because they so much want it to be true, that it becomes the truth. (and sometimes they'll just outright lie too, off cause) Sometimes what we mean and think and remember, is twisted by how we want it to be.

It's called confirmation bias (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias)

And it's how myths are made. Eye witness is a worthless term when it comes to humans, because humans are mythicists by nature. It's why science was such a huge break through for the human perception, since it's an objective method of assessing what is true, and what is not. Something that the human mind in itself is uncapable off. (objective in the sense of meaning detached from human objective perception)

How do you know these revelations about the nature of reality, aren’t illusions about the nature of reality? No matter how real they might seem to you, they could still be illusions.

because the revelations consist of the breaking of older illusions and patterns, they are not facts they can be either true or false but a seeing how prior ways of thinking were dependent on illusions. Does it mean I am free from illusion now? Of course not.


It's a well known scientific fact in psychology, that two persons will often remember the very same incident very differently. What color was the car that hit you? blue, black or dark green? Did the assailant have a foreign accent or not? Police know very well to not put too much trust in eye witness accounts.

For Ram dass story to have any credibility, it would have to be verifiable and repeatable. If it can't, it's just another myth retold, like 1000 times before in the story of humanity. You know: "jesus walked could on the water. It's true because he said so" or "L.Ron Hubbard says God will come in a spaceship and save us, it's true because he said so" or "There's a guru who took 1200 ug of LSD and didn't even feel it, it's true because Ram dass says so".

You're missing the point. I am not claiming the Ram Daas story is true or untrue. My faith in psychedelics is not dependent on some Ram Daas story. My point was, Ismene is deliberately misleading people by not sticking to the facts of the story. I am saying, let people decide for themselves.

<--- These guys are the good guys, on the true righteous spiritual path of eastern wisdom of abandoning the bad, bad ego. (is what you're indirectly saying)

Thats your interpretation of what I am saying. I don't necessarily see the ego as bad.

<--- These guys are base. They aren’t getting the message of letting go of their bad ego’s. (is what you're indirectly saying)

Again its your interpretation, but even skeptical folks like Sam Harris agree the self is an illusion watch this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fajfkO_X0l0. I disagree with Sam Harris on many things, but the point is, seeign the self to be an illusion can come about without believing in lots of wacky far out spiritual stuff. It actually makes a lot of sense from a scientific viewpoint.

You seem to expect everyone who takes psychedelics to turn into Barefoot crystal-wielding new age hippies, and when you find out that is not the case, you come in here perplexed asking how this can be. IMO it’s a naïve question, as I’ve already said, psychedelics affects everyone differently.

I am perplexed that people can take a lot of psychedelics and not be deeply impacted in some way. Not neccesarily they will become a hippie, but be changed or deeply impacted or shattered.

You know, personally I’d much rather have spent an afternoon in philosophical discussion with Shulgin, than any of those phony fake pseudo-guru’s you mention. I’m sure he would have had some much more interesting and deep thoughts and ideas, even though he isn’t supposed to be on that righteous path of eternal eastern wisdom of fighting that bad ego. But that’s just my opinion, off cause.

Well, Shulgin is interesting to me because he was definitely a mystic in a certain sense. He invented the Shulgin scale of rating mystical experiences (the plus four thing) which I like very much and he spoke about having transformative and mystical experiences. What I find odd about him, is how he seemed more interested in making new psychedelics than in his mystical experiences. For instance, I could never trip as much as he did simply for the sake of tryign new psychedelics. Psychedelic experiences are too powerful and transformational for me, to go into simply for the sake of experimenting with a slightly different compound. If I trip when I dont really want to, I alwyas regret it at some point in the trip. Most p

The reason I don’t like the term Spiritual is, because if you call yourself spiritual, you are implicitly stating, that other people are unspiritual. Which again implicitly leads to, that you as a spiritual person, must be privy to some kind of secret esoteric knowledge, that the rest of us aren't.

Thats your interpretation. I wouldn't necessarily agree.

The difference between spiritual and religious is that as religious you follow a doctrine dictated by others, this is dumb imo, but it’s not arrogant. I don’t know, maybe I’m being unfair, I just always think there’s something snobbish and haughty about the opinions of people that call themselves spiritual, maybe because they are often very absolutist about stuff, that so obviously might just be mind tricks and illusions. But nothing beats subjective experience as proof of reincarnationa and what not, right?

Nothing beats subjective experience, period. This entire world could simply be your dream which you will wake up from tomorrow, thus you have nothing to base any knowledge off other than your own experience. Not saying you cant pay attention to what others say about their experiences or books or what not, but at the end of the day, you must decide whats real and whats not. No one else, not the best scientist or even a guru, can do it for you. The role of the guru is merely to point out where you're tripping yourself up, or give you a framework or tool to work with. Not to tell you how you should see everything. Its ultimately entirely up to you.

I think there’s some good posts by Solipsis and Xorkoth in this thread (not to suck up to the mods or anything, lol ) But I myself, wouldn’t be who I am today if I hadn’t taken psychedelics, but I think it’s a fallacy to think that psychedelics makes people better persons. Yes, it can change you, sometimes give you revelations/illusions, and you can still be as narrow minded as the rest of us, just in your own way.

I actually think this thread is a prime example of this.

I didnt really say they made me a better person, what I am saying is I cant just casually take psychedelics. They force me to see life differently. I am surprised that there are people for whom this isnt the case.

 

[Burnt Offerings]

I usually just take psychedelic hallucinogens to get high...have I been doing it wrong this whole time? lol

That's what I say to all the hippies, anyway...they're always shocked to find out that some people do drugs in order to get high "I don't 'do drugs', maaaan, I take medicine...LSD and marijuana are my medicines"

 

[jmpw]

The most profound realisation I had was from dissociatives. I had demonstrated to me that the world I inhabit was not the material one, but instead is a model of the world in my own brain, a model made of vast amounts of interconnected knowledge and meaning. I am fairly certain this model was built and based upon, and is updated from, a material world "out there", but that material world isn't where I actually live. The thing that feels solid and real, the place I inhabit and feel connected to is the model.

I have experienced something similar to this, and it was a truly beautiful event. It was one of those things that just sort of stuck with me. Beyond the transcendental nature of the personal experience itself, my mind became aware of the chattering of multiple external sources. It was almost as if there was a conversation occurring between two or more entities, and my own existence was the subject.

I usually just take psychedelic hallucinogens to get high...have I been doing it wrong this whole time? lol

That's what I say to all the hippies, anyway...they're always shocked to find out that some people do drugs in order to get high "I don't 'do drugs', maaaan, I take medicine...LSD and marijuana are my medicines"

I wholeheartedly agree. Self-medicating is a symptom of many very serious mental illnesses, but few people seem capable of extricating their personal bias from the reality of the words that are coming out of their mouths.

Perhaps the reality of the situation is too much for some to bear:

The consumption of any intoxicant is an inherently selfish act. Regardless of the substances' safety profile, or the users' perceived purpose, intoxication is a form of ego-stroking in the grandest sense. If (and more likely when,) you return from an experience (the trip [intoxication,]) you will find yourself stronger and more capable because of it; It is the same reason that men hunt animals for sport.

So have fun, be safe, and bring something new to the table.

 

[Ismene]

Ismene was incredibly derogatory and insulting.

You keep saying this and then offer no reason why. Why do you think it was insulting? And why are you so offended by "cuss" words? Are you a vicar?


Ismene is only interested in insulting and attacking the reputation of psychedelic leaders.

What on earth is a "psychedelic leader"? The whole point of psychedelics is you don't need any "leaders". Are you seriously saying we must accept the word of Tim Leary, Ram Dass etc on blind faith and disregard all evidence to the contrary?

Don't follow leaders, watch your parking meters.

 

[Ismene]

You're missing the point. I am not claiming the Ram Daas story is true or untrue. My faith in psychedelics is not dependent on some Ram Daas story. My point was, Ismene is deliberately misleading people by not sticking to the facts of the story. I am saying, let people decide for themselves.

You keep pushing this lie. What do you mean by the "basic facts" of the story? What Ram Dass says?

They force me to see life differently.

They don't seem to have made you a better person tho. You seem entirely dismissive of everyone who has a view that differs to yours.

 

[Xorkoth]

Let's try to refrain from taking this into the realm of personal attacks, please. Also, this recent stuff is kind of diverging from the topic IMO.

 

[Burnt Offerings]

I think the answer to the OP is just a rather banal one: people have different reasons for using drugs.

I realize that it's difficult to see something from another person's perspective sometimes, and especially with psychedelic hallucinogens...you could give two people the exact same hallucinogenic drug and there's a strong possibility that they'd come to completely different conclusions about the experience they had. It's notoriously subjective.

But the whole line of "psychedelics did x for me and I can't comprehend how they do y for other people"...uh, OK? Is there anything more that can be added to that? People do psychedelics for all kinds of reasons and they're all equally valid IMO, even if I may not understand them. The only time I ever rip on people for something like that is when I get the sense that they're judgmental pricks. I judge the hell out of those judgmental pricks

 

[TheBlackPirate]

You keep saying this and then offer no reason why. Why do you think it was insulting?

[Ram Dass is] A vulnerable gay guy with a massive crush on his half-naked young guru.

Ram Dass isn't gay. Ram Dass is bisexual. Implying Ram Dass was wrong because his alternative sexuality corrupted him is insulting. His sexuality is irrelevant. I answered your other questions in this thread (link).

 

[herbavore]

Psychedelic experiences (mescaline, peyote, LSD, mushrooms) at a very young age led me off of a very self-destructive path by completely melting away my concept of the world I was so convinced was the one I was failing at fitting into (along with exploding the concept of failure). I think that they can be very helpful when one is completely out of balance and disconnected from everything--both inside and out. I choose to call this spiritual but usually try not to in conversations with other people who have an allergy to the word. I understand the allergy (nothing gets me more riled than Church of Me new age self-obsession calling itself a 'spiritual path') but paradoxically I am still attracted to the one authentic kernel within that broad spectrum of beliefs that addresses the fact that we do in fact exist in a vast unknowable realm as well as in the seemingly more real and concrete realm of the mind (thoughts/emotions) and body. I usually fail miserably at talking about this stuff. (You haven't fully lived until you have had ebola? grill you on what you mean by this vague word "spirituality".) But I did want to address the OP's question from my own experience. Unequivocally, yes.

@Ismene: I have often thought that laughter is the pinnacle of spirituality.

 

[Ismene]

Implying Ram Dass was wrong because his alternative sexuality corrupted him is insulting.

We're trying to establish why it was so easy to con him. Sexuality can play a part in being vulnerable to conmen. Nothing insulting about it.

 

[Dresden]

Could it be that people like me who can't seem to take psychedelics without having a spiritual experience are simply born more aware of the spiritual nature of reality?

Yes.

I am kind of the same way, but N,N-diethyllysergamide was the only psychedelic drug that ever really consistently kicked me in the ass spiritually, gave me life changing insights into my own psyche, the world, and to God, and I have only tripped on it maybe once since before it went scarce around 2002 in the last 15 years. By now, of course, I have all but lost the deepened spiritual closeness to God that tripping on acid one or two hundred times afforded me, can't really exactly remember what it was like to be me then, and am basically no better, in my own opinion spiritually, than the non-spiritually minded tripper, whose arrogance, ungratefulness and insolence towards the spiritually minded side to the psychedelic trip has always and continues to disgust me to this day.

Oh well, maybe Ganesha (if you will, O intelligent elephant headed god and son of Shiva and Parvati) grant me some good LSD-025 in the near future? A good ten strip would be nice. Thanks in advance.

 

[cyberius]

I've had two ++++ experiences in my life (just recently), and I've probably tripped 50-60 times in 3 years. Although the previous trips were fun and enjoyable, after the ++++ trips I feel fulfilled on a deep spiritual level, to the point where if I had to die tomorrow I'd be completely at peace with it. It granted me the ability to look past my personal bias and see problems in a neutral light, and that has stayed with me even after my trips. Because of this I have confidence for the first time in my life and I feel like my mental illnesses (severe bipolar/ADHD) have actually been made MUCH easier to cope with.

I seriously recommend reconsidering your use of drugs if you just take them to get fucked up. Psychedelics are fantastic tools in molding your psyche in amazingly positive ways

 

[Burnt Offerings]

I seriously recommend reconsidering your use of drugs if you just take them to get fucked up. Psychedelics are fantastic tools in molding your psyche in amazingly positive ways

That's already a loaded statement, though...the part mentioning recreational drug users doing psychedelics (or other drugs for that matter) to "get fucked up". If the "get fucked up" rationale includes things like doing drugs out of boredom, simply a desire to get high or taking the opportunity to have a new experience (but not necessarily to use psychedelics as a tool), then I think it's about as valid a rationale for doing psychedelic hallucinogens as any other sort of pretense (spiritual, personal growth-related, etc).

That's not to say that I haven't found some benefit in psychedelic hallucinogens that's practical...I'm not entirely sure what mechanism is being triggered, but IME acid is one of the best antidotes to addictive behaviors that I've ever encountered. So it has benefited my life in that way, for sure. Didn't necessarily go into the experience looking for that outcome, though

 

[Mracid]

I am curious how many of you folks who have tripped a great many times have gone down a spiritual road as a result and discovered the trans personal realms of awareness that lie beyond the ego effect?

For me personally, I feel like psychedelics all but forced me to become more spiritual because of their tendency to break down illusions and expose the dark areas of my mind. I feel like if I had tried to continue using psychedelics without working on my spiritual growth alongside, I would not have been able to handle the increasingly shattering experiences and would either have gone crazy or simply stopped tripping due to the experiences becoming too weird and unfriendly.

As a result of my experiences, I have had many revelations about the nature of reality and the way I experience myself has completely changed.

It seems to be the case that many famous psychedelic researchers like Leary, Alpert, Grof, etc also went down spiritual paths as a result of their psychedelic experiences and developed transpersonal (beyond ego) understandings of the human psyche.

However, it seems this is not the case for everyone. For instance a friend of mine at work told me he has been using shrooms and LSD for over thirty years, had hundreds of trips, and he just considers it good fun. Its not a spiritual or transformation experience for him. I also see people on these forums who have done a lot of pyschedelics but still seem to live entirely within the egoic frame of reference. Shulgin in another guy who comes to mind, although psychedelics certainly were spiritual and transformative for him he seemed more interested in testing and making new psychedelics than in the actual revelations he received.

Could it be that people like me who can't seem to take psychedelics without having a spiritual experience are simply born more aware of the spiritual nature of reality? It's not a matter of me imagining some spiritual meaning into my trips that isn't there, because the experience is transformative for me no matter what I do. I mean, there are times when I would like to just be able to trip for fun without having to meet God but that doesn't seem possible. I can't trip without a strong possibility I will come out of the experience changed. What you wanna call the change is up to you, but I call it spiritual.

But yeah, thats my question, because I am surprised when I see long term psychedelic users talk about it as though it were some kind of recreation.

I had the same reflexion while on 4-HO-MIPT, first let me tell you what I experianced in 3 years of INTENSE psychedelic use:

First year was mostly having fun rebooting my HPPD that I got from a near death 25B-NBOMe trip which made me lose contact with my mental restrictions and allowed me for a moment to become fully what I was, but I lost contact with how to move and talk so I was sitting in a chair for 10 hours and went to bed. This trip gave me intense HPPD which I found fun to play with by vaporizing cannabis in a 3 month tolerance. During that year I tried shrooms like 4 times which was fun and interesting but I stayed low dose to stay aware.

Second year, I upped the dose of shrooms every time until I was over myself. After those trip I wanted to have fun more than spiritual awareness, so I bought HBWR seeds containing LSA which I found pretty INTENSE in term of body high. So I used it every 5 days for 8 months while doing shrooms every 1-2 montsh. Fun Year.

Third year, Found Reaserch Chemicals Analogs of Psilocin; 4-AcO-DMT, 4-HO-MiPT, 4-HO-MET, etc. I had fun with those but, the most interesting thing is that I finnaly understood what whas wierd and confused while I was on Psychedelics, I think that Psychedelics allow conscious minds to take over their normal brain activity and control it.
The thing is that their effect have proper selectivity to precise parts of the brain that would allow consciousness to take over the natural course of neuronal comunication ( think addition of every of them would allow full consicousness).
From the perceptual point of the person in the brain it is confusing but think about a computer that is bugging, how do you think he would feel if he was conscious, confused and wierd.
So I think Psychedelics are yes spiritual but mostly physiological. They transform the brain activity to your will if you can take over your own brain, if not then you are buggin.
It is making your brain crash so you can take over, but if you can't you have a bad trip.

Now As for the guy that takes psychedelic for fun I think he simply does not have consiousness, he is mostly a more complex computer able to feel fun and anger. So psychedelics are only confusing to him.

Most of what I said are theories I developped on nootropics/RC psilocin analogs. Not proven simply logical to my perception.

Psychedelics gave me the ability to think by applying restriction to every possibility instead of seeking in the dark to find the answer. Giving an amount of answers when you dont know instead of having a blank and give you the confidence that your answer is right when every restriction point to it.
As for social spiritual, they gave me gradually confidence, happiness, hope, pleasure, the ability to make my own theories on how the world works without being infulenced by other's opinion, simply considering it.
They gave me the ability to know who I want to pass time with, they gave me the insight on what I love and how to gain it. They are wonderful in every way, increasing hapiness/intelligence/social fluidity/daily energy cycle etc.

 

[Mycophile]

Meditation never did a thing for me. I'm always wary of this "oh, study it for years and it'll start working". Not for me it won't.

The difference in psychedelics and meditation is that psychedelics work - meditation doesn't. When i was in the depths of despair, sitting quietly meditating was never, ever going to have any benefit for me whatsoever. Tripping and enjoying the most intense euphoric laughter I've ever experienced - laughing until my sides were aching - that's the kind of feeling that can lift you out of despair and make life worth living. I dunno if euphoric laughter would even be considered "spiritual" by most dour buddhists/hindus - perhaps they'd see it as distractions from the path. But that's the beauty of the psychedelic path as opposed to any other spiritual path. With psychedelics there's no old book to follow or no-one telling what you what to do. You make your own path.

So you TRULY believe that meditation can't do ANYTHING for ANYONE??

Lets step back a second and COMPLETELY stop comparing meditation to psychedelics or any kind of drug use.

Scientific studies have shown that meditation can lower blood pressure, so that's one thing that's good about it.

But perhaps the reason you think meditation can't do anything is because you probably don't suffer from anxiety.

I DO suffer from Generalized Anxiety Disorder and even though I have NOT done a lot of meditation, I have definitely seen benefits.

Put VERY simply, even though there are many types of meditation MOST of them aim at simply clearing your mind and helping you to either focus your thoughts on one thing in particular, or completely clear you mind so that you don't have a constant inner monologue going.

That's the biggest thing I think it does: slows down the constant internal "mental chatter".

You know how when you go about your day you are constantly usually talking to yourself in your head about this or that??

Maybe even sometimes you have thoughts you DON'T want to have right??

You think about something that it's a waste of time to think about, get angry about something you shouldn't, or anxious about something you should't etc.

Well, meditation can help people stop doing that.

For me, I worry a lot and have cyclical mental worries where I go around and around in my head worrying about things I can't possibly change at the current moment or even at all.

When I meditate a lot I find myself getting better and not doing that, at telling myself when it happens "this is not something worth thinking about and constantly worrying about this will only makes things worse", and then I find I can clear my mind and think about ONLY what I am doing at the current moment.

It's like weight lifting with your brain: you practice clearing your mind or focusing on one thing day after day and you are BOUND to EVENTUALLY get better at it right???

So WHY on earth would you NOT believe that this kind of thing is possible??

And if YOU DO believe it's possible then how could you not see this as beneficial???

To bring back drugs into the equation, you MIGHT even get good enough at it that you could shut down a bad trip.

Or if you are someone with anxiety like me who needs to take benzos which obviously have some negative side effects, you might be able to lower your dosage by simply meditating a lot, hence improving your physical and mental health.

If you have anxiety then good luck taking a psychedelic every single time you are worried. Your whole life would fall apart cause you can't hold down a job if you are on a psychedelic 24-7 lol.


So now that you have considered these kinds of things, do you STILL think meditation "doesn't work" and is useless???

 

[burn out]

You keep pushing this lie. What do you mean by the "basic facts" of the story? What Ram Dass says?

I explained already.

They don't seem to have made you a better person tho. You seem entirely dismissive of everyone who has a view that differs to yours.

You didn't know me before, so how could you possibly tell whether or not they made me a "better person"? which seems like a pretty subjective thing to judge over the internet anyway and if that isn't the pot calling the kettle black. I mean, its obvious youre a troll so I shouldn't even respond but you're far more dismissive of differing views than I am.

 

[Ismene]

I explained already.

No, you posted a video of Ram Dass showing that Ram Dass supports his own story. That's surprising isn't it. Can you offer anything more useful?