Question for people who have had very many psychedelic experiences

[consumer]

Meditation can definitely get you into psychedelic headspaces. I have been to numerous week long silent meditation retreats and usually by day 3 or 4 you are basically tripping while meditating. Yes it takes work and practice to achieve this but not 60 years worth...its achievable if you are prepared to put the effort and time in.

 

[Burnt Offerings]

I've gotta agree with Ismene on this...I've never had any sort of experience involving the "sober mind" which put me anywhere near where psilocybin put me, in terms of headspace. You can definitely "trip" in certain environments while sober...this happened to me in jail, just sitting alone in a cell for hours and hours and hours on end (I'm very impressed with the people who go through decades of solitary and somehow manage to not go insane). But anything I've experienced involving isolation, solitude, meditation or whatever doesn't come anywhere near the "psychedelic experience" for me.

I've done psychedelics on many occasions, probably a few dozen experiences with acid alone. The only real message that's consistent that psychedelic hallucinogens hammer into me is simply to be kind to other people, and that one's interpersonal relationships (with family, friends, loved ones etc) are the most important things to try and preserve in this life. Which is a point I'd generally agree with while completely sober, psychedelic hallucinogens just make the point seem particularly important for some reason.

 

[consumer]

I have had hundreds of LSD trips. Probably more mushroom trips. A lot of DMT and around 20 Ayahuasca trips. I know from my own experience after 20 years of meditation practice that I can indeed achieve similar headspaces

Just because you have never achieved states like this with a sober mind does not mean its not possible. It may not be as easy as taking a substance but with work and practice amazing things can be achieved.

 

[max_freakout]

It's perfectly possible to meditate without any religious following and have similar mystical experiences.

This ^ is completely false, misleading and harmful dogma. People never trip when they meditate sober.

Psychedelic experiences are unique and can only be accessed by taking drugs. Meditating sober is a completely different kind of experience from intense psychedelic tripping.

In particular the 'bad trip' experience is impossible to trigger without drugs, this includes phenomena such as loss of control, terrifying panic-attack and psychotic mental dis-integration. Nobody ever has a bad trip when they meditate sober.

Meditating is calming and relaxing, intense tripping is the opposite of calming and relaxing. So it is pure self-deception to conflate these two utterly different experiences with each other.

 

[Burnt Offerings]

Ok...? My post was about my own experiences, if you say that you accomplished it then good job. I never made any claims about whether it was possible or not generally-speaking, just that it's never happened I my experience. I'm in my mid-20s right now so...obviously I haven't had 20 years of meditation practice.

 

[consumer]

Ok...? My post was about my own experiences, if you say that you accomplished it then good job. I never made any claims about whether it was possible or not generally-speaking, just that it's never happened I my experience. I'm in my mid-20s right now so...obviously I haven't had 20 years of meditation practice.

My post was not meant to be a personal attack bro. I just wanted to point out that the mind can take you to amazing places sober with a bit of practice. Peace

 

[Solipsis]

This ^ is completely false, misleading and harmful dogma. People never trip when they meditate sober.

Psychedelic experiences are unique and can only be accessed by taking drugs. Meditating sober is a completely different kind of experience from intense psychedelic tripping.

In particular the 'bad trip' experience is impossible to trigger without drugs, this includes phenomena such as loss of control, terrifying panic-attack and psychotic mental dis-integration. Nobody ever has a bad trip when they meditate sober.

Meditating is calming and relaxing, intense tripping is the opposite of calming and relaxing. So it is pure self-deception to conflate these two utterly different experiences with each other.

They are not the same, I never said that - it's correct that it would be hard to have a bad trip from meditation although sensitive people might get a bit unhinged / lost if they go too far even with meditation - and have experiences associated with 'kundalini activation' which is also occasionally possible from other yogic practices. Not everyday casual meditation, but I guess if you go at it hardcore in an ashram until kingdom come, you may very well have slightly similar issues at some point. Still, conjecture on my part I admit.
It's not a scientific term by any means - kundalini -, but at the very least it's a very emotional activation and somatic effects can be extensive. I mention it because sometimes people do freak out from yogic practices, completely understimating what it can do to you. Call it what you will. You'd have to be very unstable for that or rather: unprepared to be really overwhelming, and even then it's mostly the emotional aspect, deep realizations about yourself from paying concentrated attention, and at most just losing sight of reality for a little bit feeling like your consciousness is expanded. Beyond that it would just be psychosis, I couldn't comment what could trigger that.

What definitely shouldn't be confused is that what makes the psychedelic experience unique is that it is a sped up catalyzed process, that also involves chemical distortion of the senses and not only the effects of sensory dissociation and prolonged concentration which gradually quells the mind. The fact that the unnatural (exogenous I mean) distortion acts on your senses with chems and that it happens relatively fast makes it relatively common for people to freak out and have a bad trip. With meditation it all happens so slowly that you couldn't really get too far in before you realize it, and you can stop the meditation at any time.
The mental effects of meditation will still linger, but won't keep stacking up. With a psychedelic you cannot quit a trip at the halfway point. But the manageability doesn't actually prove that they are fundamentally different in their potential in all meaningful ways.

This difference you mention is not unimportant, but you are seriously exaggerating your focus on that, interpreting what I said with many assumptions - pulling out of context because you are only comparing obvious trippiness, potential for freakouts (the name is no mistake it seems), and accessibility of the state. And you tell me that I am busying a dogma? Laughable.

What I was talking about was mysticism, which although historically often aided with psychoactives I'm sure, is not in it's origin just tripping. On the contrary, it's generally about profound and ineffable experiences, mainly the ones reached via trance, meditation, yogic practices (things that will always be more accessible than psychedelics since you need little more than your mind and some devotion) - many of which have a 'positive' / benign brainwashing action used as a tool to reach uniformity in the conscious mind so that for example the signal to noise ratio is adjusted enough to see what is normally hidden. The deeper unconscious, things that I guess would be called Jungian archetypes... the construct of the mind, including artifacts that show for example how our vision works. Normally we are oblivious to it because the mind is full of active dynamic content.

As far as mysticism goes, both psychedelics and meditation and other yogic practices can have similar potential. Don't tell me what is impossible - that I have experienced first hand - just because you apparently have never meditated for days on a retreat. Even intensive meditation for one day may not be enough - of course it depends how much you meditate each day but I would agree with that 3rd day / 4th day estimate mentioned earlier.
So for the topic at hand, the comparison is valid and experienced by myself and others. It's not to be conflated inappropriately but I never said there is no difference.

The biggest point of all is that while I think mysticism especially is a DIY thing and not a dogma/school thing where you tell others what truth has been revealed to you that is the one and only truth... gnosticism which iirc lies at the origin of much of catholicism and teachings by figures like meister Eckart are all about transformative experiences and they didn't all just trip balls to achieve it.
Sober, mystic practices can lead to transformative experiences. It would be sad and outrageous to think that you absolutely need psychedelics for it, even if they are VERY valuable allies and tools.

 

[consumer]

They are not the same, I never said that - it's correct that it would be hard to have a bad trip from meditation although sensitive people might get a bit unhinged / lost if they go too far even with meditation - and have experiences associated with 'kundalini activation' which is also occasionally possible from other yogic practices. Not everyday casual meditation, but I guess if you go at it hardcore in an ashram until kingdom come, you may very well have slightly similar issues at some point. Still, conjecture on my part I admit.
It's not a scientific term by any means - kundalini -, but at the very least it's a very emotional activation and somatic effects can be extensive. I mention it because sometimes people do freak out from yogic practices, completely understimating what it can do to you. Call it what you will. You'd have to be very unstable for that or rather: unprepared to be really overwhelming, and even then it's mostly the emotional aspect, deep realizations about yourself from paying concentrated attention, and at most just losing sight of reality for a little bit feeling like your consciousness is expanded. Beyond that it would just be psychosis, I couldn't comment what could trigger that.

What definitely shouldn't be confused is that what makes the psychedelic experience unique is that it is a sped up catalyzed process, that also involves chemical distortion of the senses and not only the effects of sensory dissociation and prolonged concentration which gradually quells the mind. The fact that the unnatural (exogenous I mean) distortion acts on your senses with chems and that it happens relatively fast makes it relatively common for people to freak out and have a bad trip. With meditation it all happens so slowly that you couldn't really get too far in before you realize it, and you can stop the meditation at any time.
The mental effects of meditation will still linger, but won't keep stacking up. With a psychedelic you cannot quit a trip at the halfway point. But the manageability doesn't actually prove that they are fundamentally different in their potential in all meaningful ways.

This difference you mention is not unimportant, but you are seriously exaggerating your focus on that, interpreting what I said with many assumptions - pulling out of context because you are only comparing obvious trippiness, potential for freakouts (the name is no mistake it seems), and accessibility of the state. And you tell me that I am busying a dogma? Laughable.

What I was talking about was mysticism, which although historically often aided with psychoactives I'm sure, is not in it's origin just tripping. On the contrary, it's generally about profound and ineffable experiences, mainly the ones reached via trance, meditation, yogic practices (things that will always be more accessible than psychedelics since you need little more than your mind and some devotion) - many of which have a 'positive' / benign brainwashing action used as a tool to reach uniformity in the conscious mind so that for example the signal to noise ratio is adjusted enough to see what is normally hidden. The deeper unconscious, things that I guess would be called Jungian archetypes... the construct of the mind, including artifacts that show for example how our vision works. Normally we are oblivious to it because the mind is full of active dynamic content.

As far as mysticism goes, both psychedelics and meditation and other yogic practices can have similar potential. Don't tell me what is impossible - that I have experienced first hand - just because you apparently have never meditated for days on a retreat. Even intensive meditation for one day may not be enough - of course it depends how much you meditate each day but I would agree with that 3rd day / 4th day estimate mentioned earlier.
So for the topic at hand, the comparison is valid and experienced by myself and others. It's not to be conflated inappropriately but I never said there is no difference.

The biggest point of all is that while I think mysticism especially is a DIY thing and not a dogma/school thing where you tell others what truth has been revealed to you that is the one and only truth... gnosticism which iirc lies at the origin of much of catholicism and teachings by figures like meister Eckart are all about transformative experiences and they didn't all just trip balls to achieve it.
Sober, mystic practices can lead to transformative experiences. It would be sad and outrageous to think that you absolutely need psychedelics for it, even if they are VERY valuable allies and tools.

This.

And on that note i am going to bed. Night trippers

 

[max_freakout]

you can stop the meditation at any time

This is one of the most important differences between taking drugs versus sober meditating, you always retain control when you meditate. So the experience of control-loss is entirely inaccessible without drugs

It would be sad and outrageous to think that you absolutely need psychedelics for it, even if they are VERY valuable allies and tools.

You need psychedelics in order to have psychedelic experiences (ie tripping). No amount of sober meditation will ever cause a psychedelic trip.

 

[Solipsis]

YOU keep using the phrase 'psychedelic experience' which due to tautology will always be incompletely inachieved by anything else, but stop looking at it so rigidly - it really doesn't help with the semantics, I don't think it's benefiting anyone with insight because of it.....

Experience of control-loss, hmmm not sure how much control a person has while in an OOBE type experience but those are very hard to generate, also not sure if loss of control is crucial and indispensible for a transformative experience, extremely doubtful (i.e. I don't believe that).

Even with the retreats and weekly classes I've been to, that was not enough for a ++++ type life changing experience - transformation and life changing experiences happen when you are ready and not when forced - but retreats still had a deep influence on me that I'd say makes it completely credible that the potential is there, if you take it far enough. And mini versions that enrich you as a person and help with giving meaning in your life tend to be very valuable. Essential to this topic IMO.
And like I said about the whole movement of mysticism: enough reports seem persuasive, all the more when there is no supernatural explanation necessary at any point, plus subjective experiences are never for another person to believe as true. It's sufficient if a person themselves say that they had a life changing experience, who is someone else to question that?

Again: to nag about the particular things meditation / yogic practices or any sober achieved altered state of consciousness DON'T do, you will first have to demonstrate the significance of those limitations.

So far you seem unshakable deciding absolutely how limiting any state of consciousness is that is not reached with psychedelics, thereby discounting everything you clearly have not experienced yourself (obviously neither have I experienced all kinds of profound and altered states of consciousness) and the main topic: the potential for transformation.

All kinds of events can trigger life-changing experiences for people, where drugs have nothing to do with it. So why bother determining if those people felt loss of control, or overwhelming visuals.
Not sure what you awkwardly try to prove or justify..

To everyone in the thread: how tangential are we? Cause like the ego death thread, there are interesting topics to delve into, but it can get tiresome.

So a fresh take starting from the premise in the OP couldn't hurt.

 

[max_freakout]

YOU keep using the phrase 'psychedelic experience'

So does everyone, because that is the standard name for the kind of experience that is triggered by psychedelic drugs (this experience is also called "tripping"). The reason that these particular drugs like LSD and mushrooms are called "psychedelic" in the first place, is because of the kind of experience they cause.

And it is crucially important to understand that psychedelic experiences are impossible to have without taking drugs, people do not ever trip when they meditate. But there is a huge psychological pressure to try to bend the truth and falsely claim that meditating can make you trip. Most people fall victim to that pressure, and end up deluding themselves into believing that meditating makes people trip. People even spend years meditating trying to have the trip that never happens, when they could save all that time by just taking some drugs.

 

[Ismene]

Meditation never did a thing for me. I'm always wary of this "oh, study it for years and it'll start working". Not for me it won't.

The difference in psychedelics and meditation is that psychedelics work - meditation doesn't. When i was in the depths of despair, sitting quietly meditating was never, ever going to have any benefit for me whatsoever. Tripping and enjoying the most intense euphoric laughter I've ever experienced - laughing until my sides were aching - that's the kind of feeling that can lift you out of despair and make life worth living. I dunno if euphoric laughter would even be considered "spiritual" by most dour buddhists/hindus - perhaps they'd see it as distractions from the path. But that's the beauty of the psychedelic path as opposed to any other spiritual path. With psychedelics there's no old book to follow or no-one telling what you what to do. You make your own path.

 

[Jabberwocky]

Psychedelic trips often are accompanied by many types of experiences that also arise during meditation. There are experiences within experiences. For example, some people experience oneness with all existence during trips and during meditation. One can argue about the clarity with which those experiences are perceived, but the experiences we're taking about are fundamentally the same. I don't think anyone is confused about that, and if they are, well now it's abundantly clear. I also think the label spiritual when referring to these experiences is a source of contention that with a little flexibility could be understood in an inclusive sense towards all experiences. I like the word spiritual and don't think I should have to feel ashamed using it to refer to these experiences, even though there is never any harm in demystifying broad terms like that with some friendly dialog instead of attacking ones entire framework. I was enjoying this thread before it took the familiar detour into "I wouldn't call it this, I'd call it that" Some irresolvable ideological differences don't need to be aired out every time the topic arises. A sunset is a spiritual experience to some, beautiful to others and a textbook example of atmospheric refraction to others.

 

[gandalfe]

As a life long meditation[40 plus years] and psychedelic practitioner, I feel compelled to clear some things up in this discussion.Meditation and psychedelics augment each other very well.They both allow oneself to peer deep into oneself, and lead to immense amounts of discovery.I have gone deeply in learning about the nature of reality with meditation and psychedelics[mainly large dose mushrooms], and also discovered there are no limits to how far it can take you.Both psychedelics and meditation need some controls[method and pathway] in order to facilitate spiritual change.Set and setting are important to both as well.There are a huge difference between what individuals wish to accomplish in their lifetime.Folks that wish a spiritual outcome from their trips will usually recieve what they expect.Those that see only recreational aspects to psychedelics will receive what they expect as well.
Life throws back at us what we throw at life.We seem to carry a ball of reality that engulfs us and gives us we expect and need to provide us with maximum learning experience.This planet is a huge school, and we are all struggling students, even our doctors, scientists, and leaders , are all wallowing in this school of life.Meditation and psychedelics have taught me that all life is connected and we are all in this mess together.Our spiritual concepts are our attempts to make some sense out of it.We will keep repeating our mistakes until we get it right, even if it takes a 1000 lifetimes.Meditation and psychedelics, allow us to see ,how our interactions with this sea of reality, are taking place.It takes us out of our auto-pilot mode of day to day existence, and wakes us the FUCK up. How we interpret this knowledge determines if we are indeed spiritual or not.It's all about our level of awareness.

 

[Ismene]

Psychedelic trips often are accompanied by many types of experiences that also arise during meditation.

But not the valuable ones? I'm sure there's some vague similarities if you look for them but could you really say to someone who'se meditated for 30 years "You don't need to trip, you know it all already"?

I always smile about that Ram Dass story - his claim that he gave his guru 900mics and the guru just sat there with no difference - allegedly because he'd meditated or was enlightened or some such bullshit he was as high as 900mics PERMANENTLY!! (apparantly the guru just palmed the LSD but I guess Ram Dass had a crush on him and was willing to believe anything)

 

[Jabberwocky]

I'm sure there's some vague similarities if you look for them but could you really say to someone who'se meditated for 30 years "You don't need to trip, you know it all already"?

I don't consider myself an expert meditator. Not sure if you are either Ismene. My experience with breathwork does lead me to extrapolate that there are fundamental similarities in some of the peak experiences, though I wouldn't say they overlap entirely. I've experienced things on psychedelics I don't think I'll ever experience meditating. Some form of meditative practice can help trips immensely. I stand by that and think any tripper who learns a bit of meditation alongside will benefit both practices and some of the experiences will overlap. Gandalfe has that perspective on both and I'd rather learn about it from him. Ram Dass may be a great example that is still quoted today of showing how mistaken this notion is. Maybe, but if an experienced meditator can tune out a noisy mind and other bodily sensations (this much has been shown with countless demonstrations and studies), perhaps maybe they can tune out trips too. Does 't sound so crazy though the Ram Dass story may be a classic example of delusional thinking. I know with my own experience tripping I can now trip in situations that would have caused panic attacks when I first started. I once walked through Walmart while tripping on 5 mg DOC and bought some milk while my friend angrily waited in the car; this would have never been possible without some experience. I'll stop there, this is getting pretty off-topic

 

[Solipsis]

Meditation did not give me an exact psychedelic experience, but it did give me open and closed eyed visuals, a flowing jumble of ideas, memories and imagination projecting through my mind, and a very deep powerful feeling of refreshing rejuvination, it has played a role in personal peace and helped shape me as a person. It has been intense, but not extreme - will get to that in a moment.

Some things like the more natural and controllable nature in meditation can hardly be guaranteed with psychedelics (we covered this) - the dilated nature of the effects of chronic meditation though have way more promise in structurally contributing in your life, while psychedelics on the other hand will be a very concentrated and sudden burst (a trip being episodic), the more intense and overwhelming, the more mysterious a part of the experience may be - but powerful insights can be achieved and they can contribute in your life and be important - it's just much more forced and not as reliable compared to the steady progression of effects of meditation.

Tripping and meditating are complementary, and an extension of each other - but not the same thing. But being in the same spectrum in mental practice, they share potentials.
For most people, even who sometimes do retreats, extreme altered states of consciousness from meditation (not intense but extreme, like OOBE, samadhi, unity etc) is not realistic. Obviously psychedelics can make this possible, though even they are hardly a guarantee and it may take many repeats before that happens.

Just don't say that such extreme altered states of consciousness are impossible for anyone ever, without psychedelics. If you would claim that you'd better damn well back it up.

 

[dariozee]

I think psychedelic experience is by definition only possible when taking psychedelics. There ARE other type of experiences which originate in the mind, but are very distinct and sometimes even more weird. I'm talking about lucid dreaming/astral projection/sleep paralysis. I have experienced these states and can confirm they are real, crystal clear and ultra-bizarre. I wouldn't call them psychedelic though, although some visual aspects could be defined as psychedelic. I can induce geometric visuals by will alone within a lucid dream, but even then they are completely unique, never seen on LSD or even DMT trips. As for meditation, sometimes after an hour I can induce faint geometric visuals, but they are far cry from the true psychedelic experience. But experiences during sleep (lucid dreams/hypnagogia etc.) are really worth investigating, because they are free and are intrinsic part of our minds already, and can be a true revelation, visually and emotionally.
Also I highly recommend the Red Book by Carl Jung, where he is describing his visions during his 'active imagination' sessions. Some of his paintings are uncannily psychedelic, even though apparently he was against drugs. So I have no doubt deepest experiences are possible without drugs, but can we call them psychedelic? Hm, questions, questions...

 

[Solipsis]

Agreed, with lucid dreaming you interfere in the dream during which information is being processed in ways unlike our waking - I've had lucid dream experiences with total control, being able to manifest my world around me and what beings or objects inhabited it - or for example my abilities, like to fly. I could morph everything without limit. Some kind of agency, in multiple manifestations, worked to counter my interference and my taking over control. I suppose those represent the normal dream process, 'metaprograms' that filter experiences and memories etc and they are common in lucid dreams afaik. However being able to morph anything, I could morph those iterations too - they only kept coming for me more agressively. Two majorly different types of consciousness / global brain process competing..

The dream process is a big difference with say a psychedelic trip or meditating deeply, but also the fact that there is zero outside input.

Dissociatives come closer because they cut you off from outside input until you hole - but that too is different among other things because of cognitive impairment.

Since competing with a dream for control eventually seems to lead to waking up, wouldn't it be valuable to see if it's possible to electrically stimulate the brain to trigger lucidity, so that it could perhaps be used for less severe coma patients who could wake up at any time?

 

[Xorkoth]

My first ever trip was the most spiritual moment of my life, a total awakening. Previously I thought the idea of spirituality was stupid, like people were just deluding themselves, nothing means anything, we're just dust and that's all. Much to my surprise, I ate mushrooms and awoke into being the universal consciousness. My life has never been the same since that day. I could have just tripped the once and my life would have never been the same. But instead I've tripped many hundreds of times since then (14 years ago). I've had some other significant, intense, and meaningful spiritual experiences, and a whole lot of experiences where I was able to better understand my personality/ego/self, that never went to a spiritual level. And I've had lots of recreational, fun experiences. Nowadays usually when I trip, it's with friends for fun, to enhance music, or sometimes for a specific purpose. But at this point the spiritual revelations I had on psychedelics years ago have entirely become a part of me at all times. I'm usually sober, but my perspective is always psychedelic. I feel very connected to myself and my place in the universe. I'm in awe of the nature of reality which makes me appreciate even "mundane" little things greatly. I'm past the stage of wanting to try to aggressively seek development of spiritual practices, because I discovered that, for me, the purpose of life is to be yourself the best that you can and contribute to the world what you can best contribute and are passionate about, and to love and be loved and make life better for those around you. To do that, I don't need to meditate and withdraw from my ego, I need to be AWARE of my ego but embrace it, because the ego is what makes us who we are. Yes, we're all the universe, but we have the illusion of separateness for a reason. I practice mindfulness and being in the moment, stay connected to my passions, and am kind to others, and my life nearly always feels amazing.

So that's the path I've taken, which psychedelics got me started on. I still use them because they continue to bring good feelings and insights into my life, and they don't bring anything negative or interfere at all with my goals. But the way I view my spirituality has grown and changed over the years too, talking to me about it now is very different from talking about it when I was younger.